I have filled out my defence, slightly different to above but the general gist is the same. I will fill in my N9 form and attach the defence statement to it (referencing it on the N9 form). I wish to make a counter claim, i can write out particulars (as in similar style to defence form or rather original particulars of claim) and attach and reference to N9 the same? I then just need to confirm counterclaim fee with the courts ? Is all that OK ?

Also today i have recieved what i think is a standard letter dated 29th October, i've had similar letters before. Notice regarding your personal loan Account number xxxxxxx The CCA1974 requires us to send you this notice because you have missed repayments due under your agreement. If you not already done so, please contact us to discuss your missed payments as we would like to help you with any financial difficulties you may be facing. Opening balance as at 29th April 2013 is xxxxx of which arrears are xxxxx (the same) Transaction details date xx/xx/xx , description =payment amount = £xx.xx Balance is £xxx.xxxxx ------------------------------------------------------------------- Am i to far along the line to send in a statement of income and expenditure to this notice? Also, i'll bring this up in court..........every letter i've had says something about the CCA 1974 requires us to do this or that. I've never had a letter just asking how they can help !!! I suppose that goes without saying.

Hows that look?

And defence............... P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; }P.western { }Defence: 1. Paragraph 1 is agreed is so far as there was an agreement to lend monies to the Defendant. Whether the agreement meets the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 is nether agreed nor denied, conformation of such has not been received from the Claimant despite a request by way of a Civil Procedure Rule 31.14 request for such document , sent first class proof of posting on 15/10/2013. 2. . Paragraph 2 is denied with regards to the Defendant owing the monies claimed and the Claimant is put to strict proof to show how the Claimant has reached the amount claimed for. Furthermore the Defendant denies any such account (numbered xxxxxxxxxx) as being maintained at a Central Loan Proccesing Unit. The Defendant claims the account was transferred to Consumer Debt Recovery Dept., confirmed by the Claimant by way of a letter dated 01/10/2010. Further to that any such account has has been managed and maintained by CRApex Credit Management Ltd, confirmed by way of letter dated 10/05/2011 (and subsequent letters) and a phone call to the Claimants to confirm such letter. Any such account has been maintained byCRApex Credit Management and given an account number of xxxxxxxx and by way of letter from CRApex Credit Management dated 29/07/2011 the Defendant was instructed to send no further payment to the Claimant after having mistakenly done so in preference to sending the payment to CRApex Credit Management. 3. Paragraph 3 ,the Defendant denies missing any payment referred to. The Defendant asserts that the Default Notice which the Claimant is relying on falls short of the statutory notice required under s88 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (As amended) due to service of such document on 29/12/2010. The Defendant will rely on the qualified statements of the higher Courts to prove such assertion. Therefore the Claimant is not entitled to enforce any such agreement as it claims in reliance on such. 4. Paragraph 4, the Defendant denies that the said sum (£5xxx.xx) was ever demanded in such document dated 22/02/11. And furthermore the Defendant maintains that any sum agreed to be paid had been paid. 5. Paragraph 5 is denied with regards to the Defendant owing the monies claimed for and the Claimant is put to strict proof to show how the Claimant has reached the amount claimed for. 6. Paragraph 6 , by reason of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any of it.

Please can some one help me here with advice or even a guess at what way to go. I could try to defend it, yes i agree we had an agreement, they breached it when they took my current account into unauthorised overdraft by taking a payment when i cancelled it, they said in their terms they would give me notice, they never, they breached the agreement. Then i did by failing to pay the full amount. That caused me go go into unauthorised overdraft syndrome, along with all the charges stacking up at roughly £250 a month. I had DCA letters threataning door visits even though the account was in dispute. They refunded me over £600 in charges and offered £25 in a cheque as compensation which i never agreed or recieved. Do i sit and nitpick over what they got wrong in order from dettering them from claiming the full amount in one go. Are there options? Can you say yes, i agree i owe it but give me some time? Or do i stick it out and say no this claim is denied any relief for the following reasons? I owe a few bob on my current account which is small fry really, so i intend to introduce this as a counter claim as to how the claimant has treated me and just what they have done. Is this a good idea? I realise i'm ranting a bit, and this may not be a suitable post for the legal forum. I've just tried to keep the posts specific to my topic so if it needs moving then thats fine with me. If anyone can tell me any options i'd be gratefull, i've seen time orders etc.. i've read them but don;t umderstad them. Is that an option for me?

You are up to speed. And latest news is today i have recieved my latest statement of account. Its quite bizzare. To go back to the documents for a minute, i have all my documents. The claimant is claiming based on this documentation, i want the claimant to produce such documentation that they rely on. I can cross reference it with what i have to make sure it is correct. Is that wrong of me to think in such a way? Statements.........i have recieved them all to date. They have all been correct and they have all said 9.8% interest from loan inception until the date i contacted them and told them i had lost my job and my financial curcumstances had changed. We agreed token payments and all my statements have since shown nil interest. My statement today was bizzare insomuch as its dated a few days ago, it shows my payments from inception (2010) for a year, it says loan interest from inception to the date i informed them of my circumstances as 9.8%, after that it shows 0% interest. Then its shows interst of 9.8% from April last year till now, although all the recent statemets i have for this period show nil interest. The only period i don't have statements for is from April 2013 to present. Any ideas on that? Are they about to start charging me interest?

The date of the notice is 21st December 2010. Date to rectify is 10th Jan 2011. Date of service would be 29th December. There is no 14 days notice.

Many thanks to you both for the replys. So i'm off the mark with the pre action protocol. Ok i understand that. The general gist then from the feedback i've had is that this request is only going to be good for a claim over the small claims threshold. And even though its intimated (in the original post) that is good for a small claims, or rather a potential small claims action this action is fraught with problems ? If so should the sticky not be updated to reflect that situation?

You have 14 days to acknowledge the claim and a further 14 days (28 days in total) to submit a defence. If you have a defence it will need to be in a certain format, have a look at this post by Andyorch for an example http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?403662-Claim-form-received-from-Drydens-MBNA-debt-poss-faulty-DN&p=4370978&viewfull=1#post4370978 By sending the CPR request you have you have asked them to lay their cards on the table for you to look and give a considered response. You will need to see the documents mentioned to give a considered response? If they do not reply in seven days of service then you need to follow through with the course of action contained in the letter you sent. i.e... http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?159445-Getting-Them-To-Reveal-Their-Vitals.-Using-CPR-31.14-to-Your-Advantage&p=1771008&viewfull=1#post1771008

HI Andy, thanks for reply. I have previously asked about the footnote at the bottom of the CPR 31 that say.......... Footnotes An application for disclosure before proceedings have started is permitted under section 33 of the Supreme Court Act 1981 (c.54) or section 52 of the County Courts Act 1984 (c.28). Back to text How does that square with what you are saying. Have i missed something? I also asked a question...when have proceedings commenced and the answer was (roughly) once the claim was made. This footnote appears to intimate the rules apply before proceedings have begun. Have i got the wrong end of the stick?

I've found the sticky above in this forum an invaluable source of information. Unfortunatley for many who are facing a small claims action, its use is going to be somewhat limited, or fraught with problems to overcome (i.e the ....it hasn't been allocated yet argument). Leaving that aside, if most peoples debt problems are for claims within the small claims threshold, and the legislation or rules intimate it is for pre action protocol (in the case of small claims ) that leaves its use somewhat stunted as a sticky in a legal forum. I'm of course assuming that someone would come to the legal forum once they have received a claim. By then for many its too late. Even so, when for some its not to late and the question is asked its not proffered as advice. Example.............. Taken from here.......... http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?403662-Claim-form-received-from-Drydens-MBNA-debt-poss-faulty-DN&p=4363041&viewfull=1#post4363041 He's had great advice throughout his thread, but no one has mentioned this nugget of advice that may get him what he's asking for ? Of course he could of done his research and found the sticky, then he wouldn't of needed to ask the question. The answer is there for him. My point is that for most people this CPR31.14 request would be afforded its greatest impact at the Letter Before Action stage, it would need some tweaking in its current form but i'm sure you get the gist. I feel this nugget of information we've been imparted by SAx20 should be tweaked and shared to people when they are at the "i've received a letter" stage. Any thoughts, other than i've got 31.14 on the brain ? !!

Oh, another thing you can do as mentioned to me and its good advice. Send a S77/78/79 (whichever is applicable) request to the Claimant (thats the one at the top of your claim form) for details of the agreement, that will cost you one pound. You can still do this as well as any other actions, don't wait or think about it just get it done first thing in the morning.

Hi Dis, as far as i am aware there have been changes yes. The specific change that i know of is that for the most part (although it could be argued otherwise) that section 31.14 request excludes small claims, yours is over 10K so should be fast track claim, so its very appropriate for you situation. The small claim limit has recently changed from 5k and been highered to 10k. So you're above that. You should send your request to the address on your claim form (the bit where it says..."address for sending documents and payments (if different)" I can't stress enough, re read that thread take it in and digest it. If you follow that course you will either get documents you should and you've got time to verify them or...well its all explanatory. Do prepare yourself for no reply though, its no good like me thinking i got no reply now what? (my circumstances are different than yours) Be ready, read it all in advance.Also, please again bear in mind i am a complete novice and just trying to impart information i have gleaned from reading in here. Check yourself and try to verify it, i have learnt they are very helpfull here and i mean this with no ill will, they will not hold your hand here.

Here's what i know, and i've only been here five minutes (i.e i'm a newbie myself to all this). Grab yourself a cup of coffee, relax and go read and absorb all of this thread (its a sticky at the top of this forum)........ http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?159445-Getting-Them-To-Reveal-Their-Vitals.-Using-CPR-31.14-to-Your-Advantage Pay attention to what it says, and if you decide to follow the advice in it then be prepared for the next stage if they do not comply and its here......... http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?159445-Getting-Them-To-Reveal-Their-Vitals.-Using-CPR-31.14-to-Your-Advantage&p=1771008&viewfull=1#post1771008 My understanding is that you have 14 days to acknowledge service of the claim, then you have a further 14 days to submit your defence. Taking the course of action i have said above does not preclude you doing anything else that anyone here will advise you to do. They will have seven days to lay their cards on the table for you to give a considered response. Dont sit there like i did waiting and thinking, get to doing something pro active straight away !! Time won't be on your side if you delay.

I've thought this through i think. And i am going to go down the N244 route, request an order for them to comply or stay the claim until they do. I have until the 10th Nov to file a defence. My reckoning is it will cost £45 to do this. I'll take a chance of them sending a barrister to any such hearing as i can't afford to pay it anyway. And i'd assume it unneccesary to send a barrister to defend producing the very documents they are going to rely on. What i want to know specifically if anyone can help me with this is..........how long will it take to get a hearing for the application? i.e if the hearing is going to be after the 10th Nov, does that preclude me entering a defence until the hearing? I just want to know if i am compromising my date for defence to be entered?

When have proceedings commenced? At the inception of the claim, or once the response to the claim is recieved and directions given?

Hi Andy, i think this is the form............. http://hmctsformfinder.justice.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/n180-eng.pdf I let someone else advise you what to put on it as i'm new to all this, but it looks straighforward. From what i gather it is to make sure the claim is suitable for the small claims track and offer mediation?

DN said unless you remedy by 10 January we will automatically terminate our agreement with you. Months later, whilst i am still paying i recieve letter from Apex saying we acknowledge agreement to pay £x and we will honour this arrangement. Do i now have a new agreement? Also can anyone tell me how important is is that and quoted sums/figures in the claim are correct? Is there a rough margin or have they got to be bang on 100% correct?

Yes, you're right. Do i have an issue that the default notice may not give the alloted time for remedy? And also is it worth mentioning that anysuch agreement with Lloyds had been terminated and a new agreement had been struck with Apex? Or am i just making things worse?

Footnotes to Part31......... Footnotes An application for disclosure before proceedings have started is permitted under section 33 of the Supreme Court Act 1981 (c.54) or section 52 of the County Courts Act 1984 (c.28). Does this help my case for a pre defence disclosure? Sorry Andy, just seen your reply. No i have not done a S77 request. I have done a SAR which i realise will come to late for me to consider before a defence is entered.

Hi Andy, thanks for reply and i do appreciate it. Correct it is that Loan, or appears to be. I have had no dialouge with Lloyds for over 2 years. I have been paying Apex and have an agreement with them. Lack of documentation would affect me giving a considered response or defence. For me to defend or attempt to without seeing the documentation puts me in a predicament of being reckless. If they do have the documents (which they should have) then it quickens the court process by me being able to view them and give a considered response. The documentation i have requested is the documents mentioned in the particulars of claim by the claimant that they rely on. I want to see them for a considered response. What i don't want is to be railroaded into a defence and court to then have copies, assumptions, reconstructions placed as facts and then what i've said in defence (in absense of seeing such documents) to look stupid? They are after all relativley straightforward documents i have requested and documents which would have been seen by the person signing the claim form? I'm really suprised they havnt been provided. I said at the outset, in substance i wouldn't deny there is a debt, i have been paying it, i've never renaged on it. I've taken umberance at the fact that without any contact/discussion/dialoue at all they have decided to try to enforce the full amount in one go and i am unable to pay it. I've never had so much as a word from either the claimant or the agent (Apex) who i have been dealing with until this 'final demand'. So yes i am feeling a little "whoa! what happened there !" I do appreciate your points and realise they will be mild to what a judge may ask me so it helps me prepare. If i can just pick up on this what you said at the outset..."you can't base a defence on lack of documentation". The whole case is brought exactly by documentation, as there is going to be no witness to say "yes it was that person i gave the money to, and it was that person there who agreed to pay". The claim has been brought based on documentation? Apologies if i seem to be arguing with you, i'm not. I'm just trying to counter any points that may be raised in court !! To summarise, if i ask for the court to order the documents to be produced for inspection why would they send a barrister to a hearing with an intent to deny me this? It doesn't seem logical to me, and infact seems to go against the overriding objective of the pre action protocol ? How am i doing so far? I'll file N244 in the morn then rather than an embarrased defence or half hearted one. I'll just ask for production of docs and a later time for defece based on that and leave the rest to the discretion of the court i think. Unless anyoe advises otherwise. What do ya reckon?

Hi Andy, thanks for reply. I could submit a defence without the documentation, but to be honest it would relate to the lack of documentation they have (or have not provided), as i do not recognise the figures, i hold(held) several accounts with the claimant over a 20 odd year period and am in dispute with them already(regards other accounts held with them) so the simple documentation i have requested would be paramount to me making (or otherwise) a considered defence. But yes i could mount a defence to every point in the claim. Would another option be to just make an application for them to comply with the request then leave it for the court to decided what action to take if they fail? Rather than me make application for SO etc... My initial thought is it will cost me £45 to make the application for them to comply and the court may well take this considered course of action if i intimate what i have just said above in this post?

I think with hindsight, the best thing to do in these situations maybe to send a CPR 18 request from day one of recieving the claim, along the lines of.. .can you tell me if you hold the documents mentioned in your particulars of claim. Thats at least a starting ground even before you have decided what to do......? Aside from that i can't nudge, poke, PM Andyorch as it says i don't have the required permissions, i come across this situation trying to access some of the Consumer Forums Library content too. Low post count? If anyone could alert him to it i'd be gratefull.

Hi Ford, thanks. I had considered what you have said. To make the application i would be better to require a hearing really to argue my case rather than just leave it as an application. The other option would be to submit an embarrased defence, explain lack of response etc and leave it to the court to forward the issue ? That would incur me no cost and leave the court to wonder why a simple request to forward the proccess has not been met with ? Any thoughts on that route, pro's/cons ?

Hi Ford, yes i mean an application for a strike out, i have followed surfaceagentx20 advice to a tee, thats what i have told them i would do in my request, so thats what i'm about to do. Given your reply you appear to be cautious over this course of action? They have had time to respond to me in anyway and they have not. So i will continue with what i have told them i would do. If a hearing is the way forward i'm confident to go to one, would that be at my local court ? Hi Ford, i looked at CPR 3.4 as advised and seen....... That looks correct what i intend to do so far? They have failed to comply with a CPR31.14 request and have failed to respond to it. I'm not sure exactly what i'm supposed to be looking at in practice direction 3A ? I havn't had any response to my CPR request, i thought i was good to go ?