Hull City Council sending Bailiffs for an unpaid parking ticket

[LynetteC]

Thanks again Jamberson. The way you've described it doesn't sound as scary as "going to Court"! It's ridiculous that it's come this far - I'm not contesting the ticket, just the additional charges, although they *did* send some lovely, high quality printed photos of my car in the disabled bay to prove it was there! Nice to know where my Council Tax goes! )

[LynetteC]

I've just come out of Court where my case was listed in front of a Deputy District Judge! Hull City Council never showed up.

 

The Judge said that today's hearing was only to consider whether or not I should be permitted to rely on an Out Of Time Statement, not the PCN itself.

 

He has granted permission and given me 14 days to file as I'm going to be away for a week as it's half term. He also Ordered Hull City Council to pay the cost of the hearing - £80. He said it should make it "interesting"!

 

So I assume now that I have to consolidate my original TE7/9 application with my N244 statement and all of the incorrect information from the Council's response and send it (registered, signature required!) to the Court, Hull City Council and the TEC?

 

As always, advice gratefully received.

 

Thanks.

 

Lynette

[Jamberson]

Congratulations on winning, and congratulations on getting them to pay costs. They really ought to see how stupid they have been - and wasting tax payers' money too, although I doubt they will ever acknowledge this.

 

So what happens now? I'm not 100 percent sure but the court should provide the Council with its decision in writing. The Council then has to permanently withdraw the bailiff warrant and cancel all the bailiff fees. They also have to accept your TE7/9 which they originally refused to do, and re-issue you with a Notice to Owner for the original PCN (which as the judge says, remains live).

 

As I said, I am not completely clear on what needs to be done by you, if anything. I think you just wait for the Notice to Owner to arrive, but it might be worth speaking to the Council and asking them to confirm that the bailiff warrant has been withdrawn, and asking what they intend to do next, and what they need from you. If the judge said you need to re-file the TE7/9, I think he is wrong - but you will need to check this out.

 

When you eventually get the Notice to Owner, you are back in the appeals process and can appeal it. You can either argue the case as it happened on the day, or you can enter an appeal on the basis that so much time has elapsed since the contravention that it is not possible for you to defend the case, and on that basis, it should be cancelled. This line does work, and adjudication hearings have ruled it a valid line of appeal. Up to you - but well done for coming this far.

 

Hi.

 

An update: I asked one of the forum's resident experts for advice on what should happen next, and the upshot is that your judge is himself confused. What he told you was wrong.

 

What happens now is that you don't do anything. He should send a copy of his ruling to TEC, who are thereby instructed to accept your original TE7/9. When that happens, they notify the Council, who do what I described in my last post - call off bailiffs, cancel the fees and issue you with an NTO.

 

You should also get a letter back from the Court yesterday - when you do, are you able to scan it and post it on here, so we can see exactly what they are saying to you? (If so, make sure you hide your name and address and any PCN number or car registration number.) It would be interesting to know what information they are giving out, if the judge himself is wrong about the process.

 

Anyway, don't worry - you won the case and that will hold, whatever. You will have the original PCN to deal with, but one step at a time...

[LynetteC]

Thanks for following up for me, Jamberson. The Judge was consulting a book throughout the 'hearing'. He read out what he had written on the Order and he definitely gave me 14 days to file a Statement. He was going to say 7 days, but I asked if I would be able to file by email as l am on holiday in Edinburgh now (l drove up yesterday) and he said I'd need to print it out and send it to the Council and the Court. l asked if I should also send it to the TEC but he didn't know and made a comment about me being an expert by the end of the proceedings!

 

l'll be home on Sunday night and will scan and upload whatever I've received from the Court as soon as l can. Out of curiosity, what do I do if it turns out that the Judge has made an incorrect Order?

 

Thanks again for all your help.

 

Lynette

[Jamberson]

If there is a procedural problem, speak to TEC - but you should expect his decision in writing. He doesn't sound like he knew what he was doing, but his decision is final.

 

The point of the hearing was to contest the council's decision to reject your TE7/9. As you won the hearing, that means the council have to accept it, which is what you wanted. So, it's a done deal. You shouldn't have to file anything else.

 

I'll keep an eye out for your scans. Send me a PM if I miss it and I'll get a notification that it's here.

[davejeno]

northampton court isnt actualy a court its a mail handling center

[Jamberson]

It does more than just handle mail. It acts like a court but uses computers to deal with bulk numbers of routine cases - rather than holding conventional hearings before a judge. Mail is a small part of its work - most of it is electronic.

[LynetteC]

Hi! I hadn't forgotten about you, I've just been waiting for Hull County Court to send me my Order. I called them today and they advised that it had only been typed up this afternoon so I requested that they email it to me here at work, otherwise I'd still be waiting for a copy via the Royal Mail ten days after the hearing.

 

In case I haven't uploaded the attachment correctly, the Order reads:

1. Permission is granted to the Defendant LynetteC to file a statutory declaration/witness statement out of time, such document to be filed within 14 days.

 

2. The Claimant Kingston upon Hull City Council pay the Defendant's costs limited to the Court fee of £80.

 

Dated 17 February 2014.

It doesn't stipulate when the 14 days should start from, given that the Order was made on 17th but not actually typed up until 27th.

 

I've tried to call Northampton TEC, but was on hold for 10 minutes and had only moved four places up the queue to number 5 so I had to give up.

 

Where do I stand? I've already filed one Out of Time statement - can I just email the same documents to Hull County Court, Northampton TEC and the person at Hull City Council who responded to my last email (and was also the person in whose name their statement was filed)?

 

Hopefully once this is sorted it will be the end of this whole sorry saga, given that I'm not actually contesting the original ticket!

 

Thanks.

 

Lynette

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]49481[/ATTACH]

[Jamberson]

Hi.

 

I have spoken to someone else on the forum, a very knowledgeable person called TomTubby. She advised that you would not need to do anything further from here, which is also what I thought. She kindly sent me a copy of the TEC User Guide, issued by Northampton County Court, which outlines the process. It states clearly:

 

8.6 Where the District Judge upholds the decision of the Court Officer to accept the respondent’s application to file a statutory declaration / witness statement ‘out of time’ or overrules the decision of the Court Officer to refuse the application, the TEC will process the original application as if it were received within time. The respondent is not required to submit new forms.

 

So it is clear. What will happen is that the court will post you and TEC a paper copy of the document you got today, and TEC will then instruct the council to accept your witness statement. You will get a letter acknowledging this from the council, followed by a Notice to Owner (NTO) and a cheque for your £80. You've won, basically.

 

In terms of the original PCN, I note your willingness to pay it once the rest of the case is processed - but you don't have to. You have an absolute right to appeal it, and it is almost a year old, I think? You should certainly try an appeal - it costs nothing and might get you the PCN cancelled.

 

Have a think about it. There's nothing to do meantime, until the NTO arrives. Keep us posted!

[LynetteC]

Hi again. Thanks so far for all of your help, Jamberson and TomTubby. I think I'm finally coming to the 'end of the road' with this, if you'll excuse the pun!

 

I received the NtO yesterday which has set the cost of the ticket back to £70, not the initial £35. My cheque for costs is to follow. I did receive an apology for there being no representative at Court - apparently there was a major computer system malfunction at Hull City Council that day!

 

l know you say I can contest the ticket as it's almost a year old (9 April), but I really just want this over with. I accept that l parked in a Disabled bay (albeit not intentionally), and want to pay, but we're back to the initial situation where I feel l shouldn't be responsible for the additional costs due to a system failure at their end. However, if this is correct and the NtO should be for the non-reduced fee, I think I'm going to have to just pay it rather than drag this out for more months.

 

Any last thoughts/advice?

[Jamberson]

It's up to you, but you could send them a letter explaining the initial issue - that you were perfectly willing to pay £35, but the system somehow failed. If you ask them, it's not impossible that they will reinstate the discount for you, which is £35 saved for you, just for asking.

 

If you try it, and they say no, you have to pay the £70, then you can do so at that point. You don't need to fight it beyond that if you don't feel like it.

 

Or, you could just try an appeal based on the timescales, asking for a full cancellation. Again, if they say no, then you have the option of paying, to end the matter, at that point. It wouldn't hurt to ask - it will only cost you a stamp.

 

Well done for coming this far and standing your ground. It just shows you can get a result if you know how the system works. I don't swallow their computer malfunction story by the way - more likely they were just too disorganised to put a case together for the hearing. Either way, it's cost them for their failure.

[LynetteC]

I'm now considering contesting the entire PCN as I was going to use the cheque for my costs to pay the ticket, but it still hasn't arrived! It seems that Hull City Council want to drag this out as much as they can.

 

If I were to contest the ticket due to the length of time this has been ongoing, is there a specific paragraph of the law I should quote?

[Jamberson]

Hello again.

 

Councils may not have definite deadlines for this type of payment, but I know that when it comes to other sorts of refunds, they have 28 days as a guideline. Assuming this is the same, then you ought to allow them that much time, which is not too unreasonable considering they have to raise forms, get them signed by senior people, get the instruction to the finance people and so on. It can take a little while.

 

As far as contesting it goes, I don't know of any paragraphs you could use, and also it isn't a legal matter as such - more a question of how adjudicators in the past have interpreted these situations. I would suggest something like this - but it's up to you of course, what you want to say:

 

Dear xxx

PCN number xxx

Vehicle registration number xxx

 

I am writing to make formal representations against the Notice to Owner issued to me on xxx.

 

This NTO pertains to a PCN issued as far back as xxx. I would very much like to contest this PCN, but feel that I am unable to do so, since such a lengthy time has elapsed since it was issued and inevitably I no longer have a clear recollection of events on the day. I therefore cannot exercise my right to defend the charge properly.

 

As you will be aware, adjudicators have frequently dismissed cases such as this, where the right of appeal has been severely delayed. You will also be aware that when cases have been brought against the validity of the entire enforcement process, citing the Human Rights Act, adjudicators have rejected them on the basis that the appeals process affords a right of individuals to defend themselves. Your refusal to allow me my right, even to the extent that you unreasonably rejected my Out of Time witness statement, forcing a court hearing at public expense which you did not even bother to attend, has needlessly compromised my ability to argue my case. (The District Judge, whose time was pointlessly wasted on the case, instructed the Council to pay costs - another entirely avoidable expense to the public, caused by your own intransigence.)

 

I have written to you several times on the matter, without response, and can only attribute the inordinate delay in my having the opportunity to finally appeal this PCN to your own internal processes and inappropriate decision making.

 

I therefore request that the PCN be cancelled on the basis that it is too old to be reasonably contested.

 

Yours etc...

[Jamberson]

If nothing else it will highlight to the council that they need to get their act in order.

[LynetteC]

Porkyp1g, I was considering appealing due to:

 

 

• Hull City Council claiming they hadn't received not one, not two, but THREE letters I sent them;
  

 

• They rejected my Out Of Time Statement despite the fact that I wasn't contesting the actual PCN, just the additional charge as I believed it had been paid;
  

 

• The inaccuracies in their reasons for rejecting the Statement, the documenting of my telephone calls to them and also in the Statement of "Truth" they sent to Hull County Court, where they referred to me not only by my mother-in-law's name but also by the name of a complete stranger, not to mention accusing me outright of lying about sending the letters;
  

 

• They didn't even bother to turn up at Court for the hearing, citing a "massive failure of the Council's computer equipment which meant [he] did not receive a warning for any appointments [he] had";
  

 

• The fact that it has taken an entire YEAR to get this anywhere near sorted - the initial ticket was issued on 9 April, (Happy first birthday for tomorrow to my PCN!)
  

In the end however, I simply requested that the PCN be charged at the discounted rate, paraphrasing Jamberson's extremely helpful letter above to remind them that if I have to take this further, they may find the entire ticket cancelled.

[f16]

With you all the way on this..... Good Luck.

PS. Happy Birthday !!!!!

[LynetteC]

lol Thanks f16!

 

I forgot to mention it at the time, but Hull City Council hand delivered a copy of my NtO to my house to ensure that I had received a copy! I was actually quite impressed that they did this, considering the history l have with missing mail (and it's not just the bad stuff that goes AWOL, in case anyone was wondering!

[Pocket Nines]

Not impressive at all; but wholly unlawful. Not the hand delivery but the NtO.

 

Lynette, I was discussing your case last week with Jamberson, in another thread.

Hull have got the latest process wrong and hence acted unlawfully. The result is that you can win this.

 

I know you have 'had enough' but it seems a shame to get this far, be messed about so much and then 'give up' at the last hurdle.

 

Can I just explain:-

 

When a Witness Statement is made and, as in your case, finally accepted and processed, the Council are informed - as has happened.

Then, one of two things may happen. I quote from the Regs.

 

(2) The witness statement must state one and only one of the following—

 

(a)that the person making it did not receive the notice to owner in question;

(b)that he made representations to the enforcement authority under regulation 4 of the Representations and Appeals Regulations but did not receive from that authority a notice of rejection in accordance with regulation 6 of those Regulations;

©that he appealed to an adjudicator under regulation 7 of those Regulations against the rejection by the enforcement authority of representations made by him under regulation 4 of those Regulations but—

(i)he had no response to the appeal;

(ii)the appeal had not been determined by the time that the charge certificate had been served; or

(iii)the appeal was determined in his favour; or

(d)that he has paid the penalty charge to which the charge certificate relates.

 

and, most importantly >>

 

(7) Where a witness statement has been served under paragraph (2)(b), © or (d), the enforcement authority shall refer the case to the adjudicator who may give such directions as he considers appropriate and the parties shall comply with those directions.

 

The Council should NOT have issued a new NtO. They may only do so if your Witness Statement stated that you never received the first (which it didn't did it? I don't have time to look back).

 

They SHOULD have referred the matter to the Adjudicator, who would then have invited your comments.

 

So --- think about this ---- this isn't me putting you through yet more work -- but Hull Council AGAIN!

 

What they have done amounts to a gross procedural impropriety - and you could potential win the case just with that.

 

--------------

So what do you do?

I think you've said you've now responded to the NtO and asked to pay the discount amount? Is that correct so far?

 

I'll come up with a few suggestions when you answer. DO bear in mind, as I say, this is Hull causing the extra work for you - not me; The matter shoul already be with the Adjudicator with you having to do very little. They are cheating.

 

Hang on Lynette.

Just an easy quick question.

 

What box did you actually tick on the Witness Statement??

[LynetteC]

 

I ticked that I had made representations about the penalty within 28 days but did not receive a rejection notice.

 

The initial NtO was dated 13 May and my first (unreceived!) letter was dated 15 May.

 

Does this make a difference? The wording in your post above doesn't exactly match the options on the TE9 from provided by the TEC. I can upload a copy of the one I submitted, if necessary.

 

Thank you so much for this.

 

Lynette

[Pocket Nines]

The wording in post 84 is directly from the applicable law. I've got a TE9 in front of me and I can see that they word it a little different but just to make it plain I think. the effect is the same.

 

You should not have a second NtO; That is clear from the Regs I posted.

You made a Witness Statement under Reg (2)(b) above --- and so the result should be as (7) above - the Council can only refer the matter to the Adjudicator.

 

BUT --- since I posted that, I noticed something. This may not be the fault of Hull. It may be that TEC have made the wrong Order?? Is there a copy of the final TEC Order somewhere in the thread?

 

Wow, you really do not have much luck do you!! A numpty Council, A District Judge who did not know the correct Civil Procedure Rules and possibly now TEC themselves cocking up??

 

Never seen so much bad luck in one case. I feel for ya.

 

In simple terms Lynette, what was the last thing you received from TEC?

[LynetteC]

The last thing l received from TEC was the Order issued incorrectly canceling the additional charges, etc. Everything else has come from Hull City Council with the exception of the Court Order from the County Court.

[Pocket Nines]

Following the County Court Order -- the TEC Court Officer should have processed your original TE9 - as was discussed here and not as the DJ thought (no re-submission).

At that point, TEC should have sent the final decision Order to you.

Is that a no then?

[LynetteC]

Yep, that one!

 

I haven't received anything from the TEC since then, but it may be lost in the same black hole that other items of my mail disappear into from time to time. I didn't even receive the rejection of my Statement from them - it was copied to me by Hull City Council.

[Pocket Nines]

Lynette.

If we can sort this here it will actually take the matter off your back and put it in the hands of the Adjudicator -- then you have nothing to worry about and very little to lose and very little work to do.

[Pocket Nines]

I'm thinking TEC have just reverted to the original Order they made in your favour on (11th November was it?)

 

If, as you say, you ticked the box 'reps submitted to Council but no reply received' -- then they have made the WRONG Order -- as shown by the Regs I've posted.

 

TEC are generally good in putting things like this right. Quite possibly correcting this in response to just a phone call.

I don't want to break any forum rules so Mods nudge me if needed but I don't mind trying the call for you to TEC if you like?

You would first have to notify them that I have permission from you to speak to them - by phoning them yourself.

 

what do you think?