Yet another Failure to Notify Change of Keeper

[Princess Layla]

Hi

I am yet another unfairly treated by the DVLA regarding change of keepers.

I have read up on the subject and am preparing my defence.

The purpose of this thread is to ask if anyone who won their case is willing to provide me details that I can submit in defence of my position.

I will not bow down.

Layla

[renegadeimp]

Can you post your defence up here? One of the regulars can then check over it for you. Make sure you omit any personal info.

[Princess Layla]

Hi Renegadeimp

Yes I sure can, but just before I do, I imagine the DVLA themselves study this forum, how do I post my defence without revealing it to them?

Could I email it privately, at least in the first instance?

Thank you

Layla

[renegadeimp]

Just remove all personally identifiable info before you post it. Thats names, addresses, car reg numbers. Unfortunately it is against CAGS rules to email other users with info you can put up on the forums. This is because we have had way too many touts and people who want to charge others for advice. You will be fine as long as you edit out any info that can identify you.

[Princess Layla]

Thank you for your help and I hope you have the tenacity to read through to the end, its quite a lengthy exchange so far and at the end I have an important question.

 

In response to their first letter..........

----------------------------------------------------------

 

Dear Sir/Madam

You were properly notified in a timely manner that I sold the vehicle on the dd/mm/yyyy to xxx xxxx of xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx.

 

Post is the only method of notification you recognise and accordingly I refer you to section 7 of the interpretation act 1978.

Anticipating your likely response I would state that I am not legally obliged to expend my own time, effort and money in pursuit of your acknowledgement of my notice, again the aforementioned act applies.

 

As I am disputing your claim you cannot now refer this amount to any of your debt collection agencies.

 

Should you have evidence in support of your claim and upon which you intend to rely in court then disclose it to me now.

 

Best Regards

xxxxxx xxxxxxx

------------------------------------------------------------

 

They replied with an unsigned letter explaining that they send an acknowledgement letter and that ”it is a matter for you to pursue this letter” even though i had already pointed out that I'm not legally obliged to, so I replied with a second letter as follows................

------------------------------------------------------------

 

DVLA Enforcement Centre

Swansea Enforcement Centre

D12 - DVLA

Longview Road

Swansea

SA99 1AH

 

NOTICE

THIS RESPONSE CONTAINS A FORMAL REQUEST FOR DISCLOSURE OF EVIDENCE

 

Dear Unsigned Enforcement Officer

 

Your second letter referenced above appears to have ignored the clear statements and questions set out in my first response, also the robust tone of same which was in no way an enquiry.

 

Please be re-advised of Section 07 of the Interpretations Act 1978 as follows: -

“Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.”

 

I believe my legal obligation to DVLA ends there yet the V5C states: -

 

'Once we know about the changes, you should receive an acknowledgement letter to confirm that you are no longer responsible for the vehicle. If you do not receive the letter within 4 weeks, please phone 0300 790 6802”

 

As the question of Statute legislation on pursuing acknowledgement from DVLA has already been judged in various county courts and has been found in the defendants favour, would you please advise upon what Statute Legislation and Evidence you will rely in proving that I am lawfully obliged to contact DVLA if I do not receive any such acknowledgement?

 

 

 

Also be aware that should you continue to ignore this question and harass me to court I will: -

• Robustly defend myself using relevant case histories.
  
• Show how many times you have ignored my request that you disclose your evidence.
  
• Call you as a witness to be present in court.
  
• Not disclose my defence in advance.
  
• Seek, if convicted, leave to appeal to the crown court in an attempt to set precedent.
  
• Seek costs against you.
  

As I am disputing your claim you cannot now refer this amount to any of your debt collection agencies.

 

Yours sincerely

xxxx xxxxxxx

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

They replied with preamble then..

 

Following disposal of a motor vehicle, the registered keeper is required under regulations 22 to 24 of the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licencing) Regulations 2002 to forthwith (ie immediately) notify the Secretary of State in writing of a change of keeper. This may be achieved by the completion of the relevant section of the Vehicle Registration Certificate (V5C) or if this document is not available otherwise in writing.

 

When the department is advised that the keeper of the vehicle has changed we send an acknowledgement letter within 4 weeks of notification, It is a matter for you to pursue this letter. Details on this process can be found on the V5C.

Your comments regarding the interpretation act 1978 are noted. However, when there is a duty to deliver documents there is an onus on the customer to ensure that we receive the item. Although the system of acknowledgement letters is not in legislation, it has been designed to remove any uncertainty that may be experienced by either the sender or intended recipient as to whether a notification of disposal or SORN has actually been sent or indeed received.

 

The mitigation you submitted is noted, but it does not materially alter the outcome of your case or constitute a defence. Consequently you are still liable for the £55 which must be received at this office by dd/mm/yyyy.

 

So I replied with my third letter ….........

-------------------------------------------------------------

 

DVLA Enforcement Centre

Swansea Enforcement Centre

D12 - DVLA

Longview Road

Swansea

SA99 1AH

 

NOTICE

THIS RESPONSE CONTAINS A FORMAL REQUEST FOR DISCLOSURE OF EVIDENCE

 

Dear Unsigned Enforcement Officer

 

Whilst your response dated 02/08/2013 is noted you can not have overlooked the words in block capitals repeated above, yet you have not provided same.

Rather you have acknowledged the provisions of the Interpretation Act 1978 and confirmed that your system of acknowledgement letters is not governed by legislation.

That being the case are you in fact attempting to obtain money outside of the law?

 

You will note the date of this letter, therefore you can take it that no money is forthcoming.

 

The next I should hear from you is a court summons, further communications from you pestering for money can only be considered harassment.

 

 

I would again remind you that I will: -

• Robustly defend myself using relevant case histories.
  
• Show how many times you have ignored my request that you disclose your evidence.
  
• Call you as a witness to be present in court.
  
• Not disclose my defence in advance.
  
• Seek, if convicted, leave to appeal to the crown court in an attempt to set precedent.
  
• Seek costs against you.
  

As I am disputing your claim you cannot now refer this amount to any of your debt collection agencies.

 

Yours sincerely

xxxxxxxxxxx

--------------------------------------------------------

 

They have replied with a very short but signed letter saying...

After careful consideration, it has been decided that this case should be settled by prosecution and the case is now being prepared for court. You will receive a summons in due course.

--------------------------------------------------------

 

So finally, if you have managed to read this far, my question is -

Should I now send the following letter disclosing that I have a witness because elsewhere in these forums people have advised that I should not disclose the nature of my defence?

--------------------------------------------------------

 

DVLALO (ENF)

Swansea Enforcement Centre

D12 - DVLA

Longview Road

Swansea

SA99 1AH

 

NOTICE

THIS RESPONSE CONTAINS A THIRD FORMAL REQUEST FOR DISCLOSURE OF EVIDENCE

 

Dear Mrs Woolley

 

I feel my request that you exhibit your tangible and concrete evidence showing how I failed in my duty is entirely reasonable and can think of no good reason why you might evade same.

You have acknowledged the provisions of the Interpretation Act 1978 and confirmed that your system of acknowledgement letters is not governed by legislation yet you persist.

 

Therefore I can only assume that the concrete upon which you will build your case is in fact the absence of something rather than its presence, namely your own unlegislated acknowledgement letter. You will have noted that I will call you as a witness to be present in court and will be presenting my letters as evidence of how many times I have requested that you disclose evidence with a basis in Law.

 

If you have done that but somehow I have failed to recognise or understand it then I welcome your clarification on this matter rather than waste the Court's time, other than that I am more than prepared to defend myself against you.

 

For clarity I would like you to know that a close relative prepared the relevant paperwork for me to sign and it is her assertions sworn under oath before god upon which I will rely together with the absolute statutory defence afforded to me by the provisions of the Interpretation Act 1978.

 

Under the FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT I would like to request the following: -

 

How many Change of Keeper notices does DVLA process annually?

How many Failure to Notify Change of Keeper does DVLA process annually?

 

As I am disputing your claim you cannot now refer this amount to any of your debt collection agencies.

 

Yours sincerely

xxxxxxxxxxxx

[Kiki1]

I wrote to Mrs P Woolley on a few occasions some years back and she never had the courtesy to write back.

 

You are one lucky person.

[Princess Layla]

Lucky is one word for it, I have some others.

 

What I would like is some heavyweight advice and even better some input rom people who won against the DVLA in court, they are conspicuous by their absence.

[renegadeimp]

It's not hard to win against DVLA. They rely solely on pressure and intimidation to get the defending party to settle out of court or admit defeat. Remember what the law says. It only says you have to post the form to DVLA. Nowhere does it say you have to have proof etc, even if they claim you do.

 

Also remember that they are a PRIVATE company who are CONTRACTED to perform government duties. They want to make a profit just like every other company out there.

[Princess Layla]

To Renegadeimp, are you one of the regulars that can check it over and possibly answer my question?

 

I would like to get the last letter in the post.

[renegadeimp]

Unfortunately im not too up to date on DVLA claims, more specifically the wording needed to challenge them.

 

Can i ask, have you recieved a claim from them, or just one of their threat letters stating that you failed to notify? I ask because both need to be handled in different ways.

[Princess Layla]

From your question I'm not too sure, as ive described there have been a chain of letters culminating in one that says they are currently preparing a court case against me.

 

How do I distinguish between a "claim" and a "threat letter"?

[Princess Layla]

I can say that they started off wanting £35 by a certain date and thereafter it would be £55, does that help clarify?

[renegadeimp]

A claim letter, you will have recieved an official court document from northampton that is stamped and is very obviously an official court document. You most likely will get one as DVLA are just sending out letters en masse as they know that a lot of the claims will go undefended. They then get enforcement orders and add on costs. It's a nice little [problem] they have going to make money.

[Princess Layla]

Hey, I have a plan, lets just bin all these letters and then charge the senders fifty five quid, I wonder if it will work.

[Tony P]

To clarify - are we talking about a Magistrates Court or County Court (via Northampton)?

 

I am unclear and on the OP's posts it looks like DVLA are still posturing prior to taking some action or folding.

[Princess Layla]

I don't know, I imagine it will have to be magistrates court in the first instance, I cant see a county court.

 

All I know so far is that they said "After careful consideration, it has been decided that this case should be settled by prosecution and the case is now being prepared for court. You will receive a summons in due course.".

[Tony P]

So there has been no Court action commenced.

Until that happens I would not waste too much time, thought and effort until IF it does.

 

Once something commences there will be much help and support here more directly focused on the specifics.

 

As you will realize from the similar threads going back a few years, DVLA work on frightening people into paying and when failing, then instigate Magistrates Court proceedings with much the same object - they try to settle out of Court, even at the door, which means you pay DVLA sooner than enter the Court Room where -

- should you lose, the fine goes to Central Government, not DVLA

- should you win, they get stuffed for your costs claim. Plus the realization of the Magistrates of the DVLA sсаm, which could hardly be beneficial for DVLA for other cases before them.*

 

*Up to 90 cases have often been listed on a single day and those defended in person are dealt with first. Then the letter pleadings of guilty (which Magistrates cannot overturn) and then the 'no shows' (which the Magistrates must convict having heard no defence).

 

 

Accordingly DVLA always try to reach a settlement, which is for their pecuniary advantage - not Justice.

 

Once inside a Court they have had mixed success. Much depends on the Accused and how well they defended themselves, together with the old perennial of Magistrates sometimes preferring to 'side' with Authority. There is also the DVLA prosecutor's tendency to attempt to bamboozle Magistrates with Laws that are not there (as you are obviously aware).

 

Two high profile cases on these forums were that of Paul Kennedy and that of Number 6 that went to Appeal. Albeit for technical reasons they had differing outcomes.

As you are obviously a 'clued up' person it is worth you reading those threads.

I'll find links if you do not.

 

But for now, you clearly are motivated, articulate and understand the game and the rules. You are on strong ground. So wait for them to move, then go into action.

Keep us informed.

[Raykay]

I don't know, I imagine it will have to be magistrates court in the first instance, I cant see a county court.

 

It will be Magistrates Court for the offence of failing to notify change of keeper.

[Princess Layla]

I was hoping someone was going to advise me whether its wise to reveal at this stage that I have a witness who was present when I put it in the post?

[vengeancedemon]

If it is Magistrats Court, prepare all your correspondance in chronological order 4 copies ( 3 for bench) I for Clerk plus a couple of spares

Do not allow them to withdraw outside the court, ( you will loose the ability to claim costs etc)

If they question that they are not bound by Limitations Act, objexct to this

If they try and bamboozle the Bench with comic legislation, question this

Be very formal, and professional to the Bench

And best of luck The Bench I sit on are starting to get these sort of cases and the number of people who are convicted who shouldnt be is frightening

[Leakie]

I have been reading a few of these threads

there seems to be some confusion on the interpretation of how the V5c should be delivered

 

just an idea, has anyone sort the definition from the Secretary of State for Transport who ever that is?

Is it worth trying via your MP for clarification

 

Leakie

[eisme]

hi all ..

 

i got a letter from DVLA saying failure to notify change of keeper in sept 2013. i sent dvla a letter stating i did send the v5 form to them but havent heard anything back from them and i am due to go to court on the 1/10/2013 (tomorrow).

 

i have decided to go to court and dispute this in person as i havent heard back from DVLA. is this the right thing to do ? and is there anything i need to know before i go to court ?

 

 

regards

iain

[Princess Layla]

Ok so following on from earlier here we are.

 

I am in court next week, its a magistrates court.

 

They are not appearing in person, just providing a witness statement that reads as follows.

I have inspected the record kept by the Secretary of state in respect of mechanically propelled vehicle registration mark XXXX XXX.

The Secretary of State for Transport has received information from a new keeper that they acquired vehicle registration mark XXXX XXX on XX/XX/XXXX.

 

The record shows that XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXX of XXXXXXXXXXXX has failed on a change of keeper to notify the Secretary of State, forthwith, as required by Regulations 22 to 24 of the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licencing) Regulations 2002.

 

On XX/XX/XXXX a notice was sent to the defendant requesting information under S46A of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 and offering the opportunity to pay an out of court settlement.

 

Proof of notification of disposal was requested but the defendant failed to provide it.

 

How would I ever be able to provide proof of something I no longer possess because its been sent in the post.

 

I would appreciate as much help and support as possible right now.

[Princess Layla]

Hi Iain

 

How did your case turn out?