Double red lines private land

[hodgey1]

Hi All,

 

I have received a parking charge from Defence Systems for "Stopping in a No Stopping Area" at One Stop Shopping Centre in Perry Barr, Birmingham.

 

I parked in front of incredibly faded double red lines, alongside other vehicles for about 30 seconds back in April and a PCN was issued on 19th August. There is a sign that states "Red Route, No Stopping at Any Time".

 

My main questions are:

Can a private company charge me for stopping on a red route? (I was under the impression that would be a council thing)

Does the fact that the red lines are incredibly faded count for anything?

Any thing I can do with the fact that it took them 4 months to send me a letter?

 

If anybody needs more detail please ask. Thanks in advance for any advice.

[filrobbo]

Of it privet land tell them you will take it up with the owner of the land and not them you have no contract with them . Or just ignore there letters.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

If it is a properly defined 'RED ROUTE' and the company are employed by the council I would say they can issue the notice.

[filrobbo]

They are still a privat company they are not traffic wardens or traffics emforment offices

[filrobbo]

They still have to prove loss in court if they take you to court if its not on a main highway .Its a shopping centre not a main highway.

[hodgey1]

I don't believe that the company is employed by the council as there is no mention of it on the letter or on their website.

 

Birmingham City Council's website states that people who park on a red route may be issued with a "Penalty Charge Notice" but I have been issued with a "Parking Charge". I've tried to ring the council's red route information phone number to see if they a) employ Defence Systems and b) still have this particular place as a red route despite the faded lines. Sadly, the phone number isn't recognised.

[filrobbo]

If it was me I would wait to see what happens next if you get a court letter saying you are defanley in court then I would start a defence until then I wouldent pay owt.

[lookinforinfo]

It is an unusual name for a private parking company-you can find their url here-http://www.paydefsys.co.uk/. As you can see they say they are members of BPA-not sure that they can issue or display on their

website PCNs unless they are also collecting for Councils.

[filrobbo]

No court action no pay

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

This is a signed 'red route' if that's anything like those in London I would guess an 'agency' of the authority could issue the notice.

 

Much as the 'parking partnership deals in a lot of areas.

[renegadeimp]

Was it a parking charge or penalty charge?

[hodgey1]

Was it a parking charge or penalty charge?

 

It is a Parking Charge. I think this means that I am dealing with a private company and not somebody appointed by the council?

[sailor sam]

Was it here?

 

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=One+Stop+Shopping+Centre+in+Perry+Barr,+Birmingham.&hl=en&ll=52.516717,-1.902394&spn=0.008944,0.022724&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=8.895518,23.269043&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=52.516684,-1.902624&panoid=_E5jKtKSdxn-wTV0P3fqSw&cbp=12,32.68,,0,5.85

[hodgey1]

Yep, that's where it is. Although that argos has been a Wetherspoons for quite a few years now so it's an old picture - the lines have all faded quite significantly (if that makes any difference)

[sailor sam]

My thinking is that its is pretty obvious you shouldn't stop there. I'm not sure whether it is a private road or not. The 'red route' signs look proper ones to me. If it turns out to be a public road then the 'parking charge notice' would need to bear some evidence that the PPC were acting on behalf of the LA I would of thought. But as you say, you could appeal on the basis that the lines were in poor condition.

 

Having said the above, if the PPC arn't acting on behalf of the LA and it IS public road, then they have no legal authority to 'enforce' their speculative invoice anyway. If the road IS private, the charge notice should give details on how to appeal to POPLA. If it dosn't then it isn't valid anyway and can safely be ignored.

 

My advice would be to find out if the road is subject to a red route with the LA (Birmingham City Council I assume). If yes, then check to see if the PPC acts on their behalf. If not, check the notice to see if it mentions POPLA. If not, then ignore it.

[dx100uk]

yes i'd go with that.

 

there is a large red sign on the next lamp post

 

looks like PPC re RED ROUTE warning.

 

as far as I can determine that is a private road.

 

so I don't think the red route law applies

 

re it just being graffiti on private land.

 

dx

[dx100uk]

FWIW: there are also signs at the gates you pass thru

one is yellow and on the floor behind the gate further up the road before you get that far

I bet its privately owned land

 

dx

[Kiki1]

Looks like a box junction to me, persue it on those grounds and that you entered knowing your exit was clear should they start annoying you.

 

Make sure you put in a counterclaim for your time and cost of paperwork/phone calls/ access to the internet in dealing with them.

[dx100uk]

http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/redroutes

 

if the 'ticket'

 

does not say:

PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE

 

and ONLY

 

those three exact words.

 

them its a speculative invoice

 

treat as you normally would those pieces of hamster bedding

 

dx

[sailor sam]

yes i'd go with that.

 

there is a large red sign on the next lamp post

 

looks like PPC re RED ROUTE warning.

 

as far as I can determine that is a private road.

 

so I don't think the red route law applies

 

re it just being graffiti on private land.

 

dx

 

I think the big red signs refer to the bus station access. I'm concerned that the turning circle (the area we are talking about) MAY be part of a public road. The red route signs etc seem to be 'official'.

 

The rest of the area may well be private so I would stick to my previous advice and check with Birmingham Council for any red routes in the area. If they confirm that it is a real red route then next question is to ask if the PPC are acting on their behalf.

I would of thought that their charge notice would reflect this.

[sailor sam]

Looks like a box junction to me, persue it on those grounds and that you entered knowing your exit was clear should they start annoying you.

 

Make sure you put in a counterclaim for your time and cost of paperwork/phone calls/ access to the internet in dealing with them.

 

But that is not what the ticket was issued for. Although if it were me, I wouldn't of parked there anyway due to the box junction markings. After all, you are basically parking on a round-a-bout.

[dx100uk]

as the site says

 

 

• 
  

Red Routes are a way of making the most important roads in our region work for everyone.

 

By making the best use of our existing transport network, Red Routes will help keep traffic moving for the people who travel on our roads, the businesses based beside the routes and people who live nearby.

 

 

The red lines on the road are a clear signal to drivers to show where stopping restrictions are in place.

Drivers who ignore this may be issued with a Penalty Charge Notice -

• Where there are double red lines, stopping or waiting is not allowed at any time, and
  
• A single red line means that stopping or waiting is not allowed during the times shown on nearby road signs.
  

As part of the Red Routes scheme, authorised parking and loading areas are being provided, with clearer signs. Parking areas for people with disabilities and loading bays for delivery drivers will be clearly marked but stopping or parking on the red line is not allowed.

 

so as the op says he has a parking charges notice

 

I think that answers it

 

dx

[hodgey1]

Thank you everyone. This whole situation is made slightly difficult because I am out of the country for the next few days but I will pursue it further when I'm back.

 

I will check with the council if this is still a red route and, if so, if Defence Systems are working on their behalf. I have already emailed but will probably need to call.

 

If the red route is still applicable but Defence Systems are not working for the council (which is what I suspect is the case) then am I correct in thinking that the parking charge notice is invalid as Defence Systems have no signs of their own and are basically piggybacking the council's system?

[dx100uk]

if it was ticketable by the council THEY WOULD DO IT>

 

if the speculative invoice does not have THEIR logo

then well its obv what is going on

 

the std tricks they play all the time.

 

funny 'authoritative' name

 

lets put red lines down, that'll generate us ots of money

no-one questions those

 

shame we didn't design the area BETTER in the first place

rathrt than making buses drive across store fronts....

[hence the spoof red route]

 

 

 

dx

[sailor sam]

If i'm brutality honest, I think it's a bad place to park in the first place. It maybe the case (as in many other red routes) that there could be CCTV enforcement by the LA.

 

BUT we still need to establish whether or not the area is in fact a public or private road. If public the Council will confirm whether the red route is official or not and if it is, the PPC have no lawful authority to issue parking charge notices as the OP confirms they are not acting for the council. If it is not, then the OP simply appeals to POPLA unless there is no reference to POPLA on the notice. In which case the notice is invalid anyway.