PCN - machine would not accept new 10p

[wvvby]

Hi,

 

I was wondering where I stand with a council PCN I received today.

 

I parked, mid afternoon, on a quiet side road with a contolled scheme. I tried to purchase a ticket from the on street parking machine but it kept rejecting the new 10p I had. When I looked closer, there was a printed note that had been stuck on to the machine that said it wouldn't accept new 5p or 10p.

 

Now, potentially I could use the excuse that I left my car because I went off to get the correct change for the machine. However, I am wondering if the council parking legislation is effective where a machine doesn't work correctly, warning note or not?

 

Any info appreciated.

[BankFodder]

Once the contract is made then I expect that they have a duty to accept any legal tender.

 

The problem is to know when the contract is made.

Is it made when you park your car - or is it made only when you have paid the money into the machine.

 

There are good arguments for both to be correct.

 

I expect that the council would argue that you are obliged to pay as soon as you park your car - and if that is true then the contract is made at that point and in principle they are obliged to accept whatever money you have on you.

 

On the other hand they could argue that the contract is made then - but subject to contractual terms that you pay only in certain coinage. That would be quite a reasonable position. However, in that case, the terms must be clearly stated and incorporated into the contract when you park your car - not later on.

 

Did you get a pcn?

[wvvby]

Thanks for the reply. I'm glad you've looked at the contract side of things because this is where I feel the problem lies.

 

Yes I received a ticket/PCN by the way, which I am expected to pay within 14 days (if I want to take them up on their cut-price deal!!).

 

So from you're argument, would it be fair to say that I should be able to see the label (stating that new 10p and 5p are not accepted), from where I park my car; that is, before I get out and walk up to the machine? For the record, I parked next to the machine, but the label and coin entry area faces away from the road and is only visible when standing infront of the machine (interestingly, other machines on adjoining streets, face the road).

 

I guess we are saying that I am in contract as soon as I park in the designated zone - is this how these schemes work? If so, then I don't have full disclosure because the information signs I could see from my car failed to mention that only certain coins work in the machine.

 

I am wondering how deeply they review each case, because intricacies of the contract doesn't seem like something a council agent sitting behind a desk would comment on.

[Michael Browne]

 

Now, potentially I could use the excuse that I left my car because I went off to get the correct change for the machine.

 

Did you do that?

 

How much was the parking fee? Only one 10p coin and you had no other coins?

 

Could you have 'overpaid' with other coins?

[wvvby]

No, but potentially someone could say they did - it's a fair walk to the nearest shops. However, I would say that you have consented to the contract if that's what you state you did.

 

The fee is 40p. I had old and new coins but not enough of the old for it to work.

 

Yes someone could 'overpay' into the machine (and not receive change).

[Michael Browne]

No, but potentially someone could say they did

But in your case not truthfully and I wouldn't recommend lying

 

However, I would say that you have consented to the contract if that's what you state you did.

Forget contracts, this is a council PCN governed by legislation, nothing to do with contracts

The fee is 40p. I had old and new coins but not enough of the old for it to work.

 

Yes someone could 'overpay' into the machine (and not receive change).

 

The councils stance will be it is the motorists responsibility to have sufficient of the correct coinage. You would have to take this to adjudication and that would be a real gamble as to whether he would allow the appeal. My own opinion is that he would not.

[wvvby]

I had the correct change, I'd say it's the council's responsibility to operate machines that accept legal tender. To expect persons to use certain types of tender is asking too much when the issue is that the machines aren't configured correctly.

 

Sorry to disagree, the signs state that you can park for 1 hour if you pay at the machine - a contract I can accept or decline. Yes, it uses legislation, but it's based on law or it's pointless. In this case, it's contract law.

 

Now, how the council argue is another thing!! I suspect you are right in your assumption. However, based on facts, I think they would lose the case in court if I decided to make a complaint against them.

[Michael Browne]

I had the correct change, I'd say it's the council's responsibility to operate machines that accept legal tender. To expect persons to use certain types of tender is asking too much when the issue is that the machines aren't configured correctly.

To an extent I agree with you. However the council were not responsible for the new coinage. and although they could/should have altered the machine, by not doing so (probably for cost reasons) they were not making it impossible for people to pay at all.

 

Sorry to disagree, the signs state that you can park for 1 hour if you pay at the machine - a contract I can accept or decline. Yes, it uses legislation, but it's based on law or it's pointless. In this case, it's contract law.

No, it's not. there is no contract, at least not in law.

However if we assume there is, the 'T&C's' of the 'contract' says you cannot use new coinage and as you say you could accept or decline. You chose to ignore the 'T&C's'

However, based on facts, I think they would lose the case in court if I decided to make a complaint against them.

It's adjudication not a court, and I think, on balance, you would lose, but there's only one way to find out.

 

You had the option of obtaining the right coinage.. you didn't

You had the option of overpaying.. you didn't

You even had the option of leaving and parking elsewhere....you didn't

 

You have nothing to lose by making an informal appeal to the council within 14 days. They should re-offer the discounted penalty if they reject your appeal.

[Michael Browne]

Where exactly was this? There is a small chance that the Traffic Regulation Order for that street may not be compliant.

[wvvby]

Thanks for the replies, it is interesting to hear another perspective.

 

I think the signage, visible from the car, is unlawful. It doesn't provide the full facts, which is the minimum that anyone undertaking an agreement (contract, T&C etc. etc.) should expect.

 

In this case, I didn't ignore the T&C's I had seen on the sign as I parked in the zone. Only when I was at the machine and it rejected the coins was I made aware that there was an extra clause. However, at this point, are the contract details as seen from the car, now void?

 

The sticker on the machine is an extra clause, although I agree it was out of the council's hands, it's nothing to do with me if their machines haven't been configured incorrectly, where a sign specifically for drivers states that you have to pay at the machine to park. Yes I had a few choices, but I had fulfilled my obligations as a driver, in reference to the permanent street signs; I paid money into the machine.

 

As ever with agreements, it comes down to semantics!

[wvvby]

..

[Michael Browne]

Let's knock this contract nonsense on the head. There is no contract, T&C's, clauses, agreements etc. Persisting with this argument will get you nowhere. It's not semantics, it's rubbish.

 

Again what's the exact location.

[Jamberson]

I too am pessimistic about this. Doesn't mean you won't win - just that it's a long shot.

 

This is the problem, as I see it. You endeavoured to use pay and display. You realised that you would be unable to fulfil the transaction when you saw the label on the machine. Nevertheless you left your car parked there.

 

I fully understand why - it's not unreasonable to do what you did. However it is a breach. You "should" have abandoned your plan to park there when you couldn't obtain a ticket, and gone off somewhere else.

 

You might also consider the fact that some coins just won't work in machines for no apparent reason. It's always a risk if you just have the exact amount and no spare coins, so there is an element of forward planning which would have saved you the inconvenience of having to drive off again.

 

On the plus side, you can appeal at this stage with no risk - so you may as well try. You never know.