fair evasion southeastern

[tohhnee]

Hi everyone. i'm in need of some advice.

 

Last wednesday i had arranged to go and see some friends in london and intended to use the train to get there.

 

at around 4pm i went to my local trainstation (Marden).

 

The ticket office was closed so i went over to the permit machine to by a permit to travel that i could exchange on the train or when i get to london.

 

The machine was out of order aswell.

 

I boarded the train anyway and thought i could explain it to the train staff when i get to london and buy my ticket there.

 

I was a bit early and decided to get off a stop early at sevenoaks.

 

when i reached the gates there were a large group of revenue inspectors.

 

I approached one of them and explained my situation to him.

 

He took me over to another staff member with a ticket machine.

 

I explained that the ticket office was closed and that the permit to travel machine was not working.

 

He immediately said "its a penalty fare mate"

 

I explained to him again and he just kept repeating "its a penalty fare".

 

he would not listen. at the time i was thinking that penalty fare meant that i was gonna go to court and get prosecuted.

 

I started to panic and tried to make a run for it but was caught by 3 big men who must have worked for revenue inspection.

 

they took me into the corner and told me that i was going to be prosecuted.

 

i tried explaining that their colleague was not listening.

 

they took my details and said i would be hearing from them in the next 4-6 weeks.

 

I know i shudnt have ran off but i didnt want to be fined for fare avading when that never was my intention.

 

now i dont know what to do.

 

i'm unemployed and can't receive legal aid for this kind of incident.

 

 

Any advice would be much appreciated thanks.

[dx100uk]

If the machine was not working

then they will find that out

 

i cant see this going anywhere as such.

 

see if you get a letter

 

and if you are telling the truth about the machine

 

then i'd simply offer the price of the unpaid fare.

 

ok, ideally it is YOUR responsibility to find the on board conductor and get a ticket

 

it slightly worries me you have missed that bit out?

 

dx

[tohhnee]

thank you for your reply

 

"ok, ideally it is YOUR responsibility to find the on board conductor and get a ticket

 

it slightly worries me you have missed that bit out?"

 

when i got on the train i waited for the guard to come to me but he never did. I wasnt aware that i had to go looking for him .

i just figured i could square it with them at the station.

[dx100uk]

sadly that could be your undoing

or more financially wise - more expensive

 

as you'll see on many threads mentioned in this forum

 

it is sadly a requirement of your agreed T&C's

that you MUST seek out a conductor and get a ticket.

 

pers i'd do nothing till you get a letter.

 

you dont know if you are fighting anything yet.

 

dx

[tohhnee]

thanks again. i will wait and see if i get a letter.

 

what sort of punishment can i expect in worst case scenario and is the fine means tested? will i have to go to court?

 

Thanks

[BazzaS]

Hi everyone. i'm in need of some advice.

 

Last wednesday i had arranged to go and see some friends in london and intended to use the train to get there.

 

at around 4pm i went to my local trainstation (Marden).

 

The ticket office was closed so i went over to the permit machine to by a permit to travel that i could exchange on the train or when i get to london.

 

The machine was out of order aswell.

 

I boarded the train anyway and thought i could explain it to the train staff when i get to london and buy my ticket there.

 

I was a bit early and decided to get off a stop early at sevenoaks.

 

when i reached the gates there were a large group of revenue inspectors.

 

I approached one of them and explained my situation to him.

 

He took me over to another staff member with a ticket machine.

 

I explained that the ticket office was closed and that the permit to travel machine was not working.

 

He immediately said "its a penalty fare mate"

 

I explained to him again and he just kept repeating "its a penalty fare".

 

he would not listen. at the time i was thinking that penalty fare meant that i was gonna go to court and get prosecuted.

 

I started to panic and tried to make a run for it but was caught by 3 big men who must have worked for revenue inspection.

 

they took me into the corner and told me that i was going to be prosecuted.

 

i tried explaining that their colleague was not listening.

 

they took my details and said i would be hearing from them in the next 4-6 weeks.

 

I know i shudnt have ran off but i didnt want to be fined for fare avading when that never was my intention.

 

now i dont know what to do.

 

i'm unemployed and can't receive legal aid for this kind of incident.

 

 

Any advice would be much appreciated thanks.

 

A penalty fare can only be offered if they don't think you were trying to fare evade.

Additionally, a penalty fare isn't a fine and doesn't involve court.

 

It is easy to be wise after the event, but ideally you should have accepted the penalty fare, and then appealed it.

 

7.3 An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare under rule 6.2 if any of the following circumstances applied at the station where the person joined the relevant train.

 

a) There were no facilities available to issue the appropriate ticket or other authority for the journey which that person wanted to make.

 

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/rail-penalty-fares/rail-penalty-fares-rules.pdf

 

The TOC will have records of if the ticket office was closed and if any ticket machines were working & available.

 

However, running off was just about the worst thing you could do, as it could be used to show "intent to avoid a fare"

Edited February 7, 2013 by BazzaS

[firstclassx]

A Byelaw 18(1), 18(2) prosecution cannot occur because the OP has a specified defence under Byelaw 18(3).

 

A Byelaw 23(1) [[or at a push 24(2)(iii) ]] prosecution could be successful, if the OP was requested to give his name and address, and if the authorised person, (RPI), had reasonable belief to assume the passenger had breached Byelaw 18(1). This belief could be formed if, for example, he has not been informed that the PERTIS has failed, or the booking office has closed, or even if other passengers from the same station had tickets. It just needs "suspicion".

Subsequently running away, after name and address was requested, could complete the offence.

 

Alternatively a S5 RoRA 1889 may be instigated but it needs to be proved the intent was to avoid fare due. Depends on whether the Penalty Fare is the fare due, particularly if he offered to pay the normal fare.

[Old-CodJA]

Alternatively a S5 RoRA 1889 may be instigated but it needs to be proved the intent was to avoid fare due. Depends on whether the Penalty Fare is the fare due, particularly if he offered to pay the normal fare.

 

I would agree with most of that, however the Act states 'having not paid his fare' and so the fare to be pursued in a S.5 prosecution is the unpaid single fare for the journey made, not the Penalty Fare, which is a civil remedy and therefore irrelevant in terms of such a charge.

 

 

Subsequently running away, after name and address was requested, could complete the offence.

 

In my view this makes the prosecution of RoRA S.5.3 very much more likely and very likely to succeed. Of course a charge of 'bilking' could be pursued under the Theft Act if the matter were referred to Police

 

( Just musing on the likely questions if I were the prosecutor, I wonder why, if the OP was meeting friends in London he decided to get off at Sevenoaks? )

[Grotesque]

Either: a) To purchase a short ticket for presentation in London; or

b) To take the scenic route.

[tohhnee]

hi. i received a letter from southeastern mentioning the incident and asking for me to confirm it is me, and asking for any comments on the incident on the back. the letter had a 7 day deadline to be returned or the matter would be procesed with out me having further notice. i filled in the my details and gave my version of events on the back.i decided to send it 1st class recorded delivery because i wanted to make sure it got there. its now been 9 days since i sent the letter back and i checked on royal mail tracker and the letter still hasn't been signed for. i am now worried about what will happen now. any advice will be much appreciated thanks

[tohhnee]

hi everyone. i'm in need of some advice. about 6 weeks ago i was suspected of fare evasion by southeastern trains. They took my details. about 10 days ago i received a letter mentioning the incident had now been authorised for prosecution. the letter also asked me if i was the person in the incident and also for my occupation, NI number, phone number and to confirm my name and address. It also asked for any comments i had on the incident to be written on the back of the letter and to send it back to southeastern prosecutions department. The letter also stated that I had a 7 day deadline to send the letter back or the matter would be progressed without me receiving further notice ( not sure what that means ).

 

so I filled in my information and then wrote my versions of the event on the back. I decided to send it 1st class recorded delivery to make sure it got there witthin the 7 day deadline. it has now been 10 days and the letter still hasn't been signed for.

 

I'm guessing royal mail tried to deliver it to the address and there was noone there to sign for it, so they left it to be collected at the nearest post office.

 

My point is that I have now missed thr 7 day deadline to get the letter back to them and southeastern might think i have ignored their letter. I'm worried now and would like to know what is going to happen with this matter. will southeastern just go ahead and prosecute anyway. if so will i receive my court summons soon?

 

i am worried about the bit in the letter that says the matter will be progressed with out me getting further notice if i dont get the letter back in 7 days. what do they mean by that? will i still get a court summons date sent to me and the opportunity to go court? this is really worrying me now

 

tohhnee

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

I've merged your threads because having duplicate ones doesn't help. I hope the forum guys will be along later, but please bear in mind that weekends are quieter here.

 

My best, HB

[Feebee_71]

I think this is correct but, apologies if it isn't, some places get so much 'signed for' post that, rather than sign for every individual piece of mail, they sign once for all pieces of mail sent by the same method. Such bulk signings can mean that the individual pieces of mail don't ever show as being signed for even though they have been received by the intended recipient.

 

You could always contact the people who wrote to you explaining you sent the letter to them on xx date but nothing is showing up yet so could they check whether they have logged receipt of it!!Feebee_71

[BazzaS]

hi everyone. i'm in need of some advice. about 6 weeks ago i was suspected of fare evasion by southeastern trains. They took my details. about 10 days ago i received a letter mentioning the incident had now been authorised for prosecution. the letter also asked me if i was the person in the incident and also for my occupation, NI number, phone number and to confirm my name and address. It also asked for any comments i had on the incident to be written on the back of the letter and to send it back to southeastern prosecutions department. The letter also stated that I had a 7 day deadline to send the letter back or the matter would be progressed without me receiving further notice ( not sure what that means ).

 

so I filled in my information and then wrote my versions of the event on the back. I decided to send it 1st class recorded delivery to make sure it got there witthin the 7 day deadline. it has now been 10 days and the letter still hasn't been signed for.

 

I'm guessing royal mail tried to deliver it to the address and there was noone there to sign for it, so they left it to be collected at the nearest post office.

 

My point is that I have now missed thr 7 day deadline to get the letter back to them and southeastern might think i have ignored their letter. I'm worried now and would like to know what is going to happen with this matter. will southeastern just go ahead and prosecute anyway. if so will i receive my court summons soon?

 

i am worried about the bit in the letter that says the matter will be progressed with out me getting further notice if i dont get the letter back in 7 days. what do they mean by that? will i still get a court summons date sent to me and the opportunity to go court? this is really worrying me now

 

tohhnee

 

Did you copy your reply or take a note of the reference number?.

 

Call them and explain (sometimes recorded delivery gets delivered & not signed for, so they may tell you they have your reply).

 

If you can't be sure they have your reply, resend it by Special Delivery.

 

Special Delivery is a "guaranteed delivery" service and is "tracked" from posting to delivery. Recorded delivery isn't a guaranteed delivery service (they say they'll get a signature on delivery, but they don't guarantee to deliver it), is in effect "1st class mail", so they won't consider it missing for 14 days, and I don't rely on it for anything important.

 

Recorded Delivery is treated the same as ordinary 1st class mail (no tracking) until the last step of its journey (if it gets there), where they should get a signature. Special Delivery is tracked at each stage.

[tohhnee]

thank you for the advice. i rang up southeastern customer services explaining the situation and asked them if they had the number of the prosecutions office. the man i spoke to said he didn't have a number and said that i would have to write to them.

 

does anyone know how i can get in direct contact with southeastern prosecutions office? i just wanna make sure they got my reply.

 

also, does anyone know what they will do if they didn't receive the reply? what will be their next actions?