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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

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      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
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      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

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Too much debt to handle...what's next??


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Hi, was just wondering if anyone has sent a hardship letter to their creditor(s) asking for their outstanding debt to be written off and if so, have you been successful or unsuccessful? Are some creditors more than others likely to agree to write the debt off and is there a limit to how much they will write off?

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i will be quite frank and say i have not ever heard of this being successful

 

however it would be wrong to comment without knowing something about he debts you have

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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well most of those are good candidates from reclaiming/insurance mis-selling.

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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well the op is certainly a candidate for ill health write-offs

would of been nice to know that rather than go hunting for the info..

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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You need to read the threads Martin - I think all of mine have been posted up! lol By the way - don't take tht comment seriously, you do a fantastic job!

 

I'm always slightly wary as you never know who reads the threads, and though my illness is 100% real I don't like anyone to feel I'm "using" it. I would honestly rather have my debt back and my health back, but that is not the way my life has panned out. I do mention it in asking people to write off my debt, but use the argument far more that I have no money, no prospect of having any money, so will they consider writing it off please? I have been surprised by the results.

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Finance U £2500

Welcome £4300

Carlyle Finance £5200

Egg £18000

Motaquote £130

+ several others. Amounts are approximate as I haven't looked up exact amounts, but aren't far off!

 

It's surprising there are so many creditors out there who DO have a heart!! The Egg debt must have been a great relief Tingy.

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Should DCA's be supplying me with statements of the payments I have made to them since they took the debt off the original creditor? Do I have a right to demand statements even if they don't legally have to supply them?

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Yes, and if they do not, they cannot charge interest (bits below shamelessly nicked from Cerbs or Shadow). Has the account been terminated or sold?

 

 

Consumer Credit Act 2006 Amendment:

 

Section 11 inserts a new section 86D after the new section 86C (inserted into the 1974 Act by section 10). Section 86D sets out the consequences for a creditor or owner if he fails to give a notice as required by sections 86B or 86C. If the creditor or owner fails to provide a notice of sums in arrears when required to do so, then during the period of his failure to provide the notice (i.e. from the date that it was required to be given until the end of the day on which it is eventually provided), he is not entitled to enforce the agreement. In addition, the debtor or hirer is not liable to pay any interest that relates to the period of the creditor or owner’s failure, nor is the debtor or hirer liable to pay any default sum (see the notes in respect of section 18 below) which becomes payable during that period.

 

 

Sums in arrears under running-account credit agreements:

 

86C Notice of sums in arrears under running-account credit agreements

 

(1) This section applies where at any time the following conditions are satisfied—

(a) that the debtor under an applicable agreement is required to have made at least two payments under the agreement before that time;

(b) that the last two payments which he is required to have made before that time have not been made;

© that the creditor has not already been required to give a notice under this section in relation to either of those payments; and

(d) if a judgment has been given in relation to the agreement before that time, that there is no sum still to be paid under the judgment by the debtor.

 

(2)The creditor shall, no later than the end of the period within which he is next required to give a statement under section 78(4) in relation to the agreement, give the debtor a notice under this section.

 

(3) The notice shall include a copy of the current arrears information sheet under section 86A.

 

(4) The notice may be incorporated in a statement or other notice which the creditor gives the debtor in relation to the agreement by virtue of another provision of this Act.

 

(5) The debtor shall have no liability to pay any sum in connection with the preparation or the giving to him of the notice.

 

(6) Regulations may make provision about the form and content of notices under this section.

 

(7) In this section ‘applicable agreement’ means an agreement which—

(a) is a regulated agreement for running-account credit; and

(b) is neither a non-commercial agreement nor a small agreement.”

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I am dealing with several DCA's via a DMP company and none of them have ever supplied statements so I don't know if the amount

they think is outstanding is correct against what I have paid them.

 

All the outstanding balances that the DMP company show are lower than the balances the DCA's show

which is why I would like the DCA's to supply me with statements from the day they took the debt from the original creditor until the present time.

 

None of them are charging interest (yet!) but it's useful to know that they are not allowed to if they don't supply statements.

 

If I send the DCA's a CCA, can I also request statements at the same time?

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If you request it in writing from them (get proof of posting etc) and they dont then they are failing the OFT debt collection guidelines..

 

Section 2.2

 

e. failing to provide debtors or creditors with information on status of debts, for example, not providing requested balance statements when reasonably requested

 

S.

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If you request it in writing from them (get proof of posting etc) and they dont then they are failing the OFT debt collection guidelines..

 

 

 

S.

 

Thanks S.

In that case, I think I will send them CCA first to find out the exact date they took control of the debt and then I will request statements.

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  • 1 year later...

After reading a post by one of the CAGgers on here, stating that once a debt has been sold to a DCA then the debtor no longer has to repay the debt because they have no contract with the DCA, only with the debtor, it got me researching on the internet.

 

 

My research has found that It ‘seems’ there IS some kind of law about this which is generally unknown to the public but when put into practice it does actually seem to work.

 

 

Now, I’m certainly not suggesting that everyone with a debt should get it obliterated in this way, nor am I saying that debt avoidance is acceptable but the aforementioned “become debt-free system” does have some valid points, mainly about the way we are treated once we struggle with our debts and how we can fight back.

 

 

I was wondering if any CAGgers have any experience of clearing debts in this way or know of anyone who has?

 

 

I’m really not sure if it is all a [problem] but the main website I have been looking at (which I will not name on this site unless I am allowed to) seems to have a good few claims of successes (although my sceptical side makes me think they could just be fictitional successes!).

 

The website also does not charge to receive all the tools needed to go down this route so may not be a [problem] after all because [problem]s usually involve handing over money. But I still have to remember the old saying “if something seems too good to be true, it probably is!”.

 

 

Then again, you have to wonder if they really are successes....who’s to say the OC will not resurface further down the line to reclaim the debt from the DCA and start the whole process again?? Also, if this method becomes more popular, what’s the chance of the laws being changed so that this method becomes illegal and everyone who has used it ends up in the slammer for fraud??

 

I’d be very interested to hear anyones views/experiences on this.

Edited by citizenB
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Sounds that like a fantasy site to me. How does the site that you have not mentioned make any money or at least cover its costs ?

 

A DCA if they purchase a debt, can enforce it, as if they were the original creditor. With some very old loans or credit cards, if they can't provide the CCA, it makes it very difficult for them and in many cases they won't bother. From what I understand most DCA's work from spreadsheets and they don't have any of the paperwork from the OC. This is why if you ask for the CCA, they often can't provide it and have to make a request to the OC.

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Is this a free man that wanders the world, completely ignorant of the Law of Property Act 1925 (1926?) and it's consequences? Who thinks (mainly due to internet ignorance) that a DCA has purchased a sum of negative equity called "a debt" at a reduced price?

 

Not just purchased the rights to the benefits and duties of that debt under said Act, as is the case in staute?

 

Hmm, not a defence I would rely on...

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Thanks all for your input. I was looking for the clarification you have given me that this site is a load of tosh (and there are other sites like it too).

My question now is, WHY are sites like them allowed to exist?

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My question now is, WHY are sites like them allowed to exist?

 

Same reason as conspiracy theory sites, those that think that an ex TV sports presenter is Jesus and a myriad of other "way out" ideas are allowed. People can have their own sites to express their own opinions on things....some are loony and some are not.

 

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Same reason as conspiracy theory sites, those that think that an ex TV sports presenter is Jesus and a myriad of other "way out" ideas are allowed. People can have their own sites to express their own opinions on things....some are loony and some are not.

 

But I think the sites which tell people they can obliterate debts when they quite clearly can't are far more of a threat to innocent people than those that pose as Jesus....believing some mad ex sports presenter is Jesus can't land you in serious trouble with The Law unlike the sites that tell you how to get your debts cancelled unlawfully.

Have those kind of sites not been investigated or prosecuted?

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I'd suggest you could do similar with this entire thread...

 

Bigshoes, WHAT gives you the right to have a go at my post??? We ALL have a right to question things that appear wrong and that's all I was doing!!!!!! Maybe your just jealous over my similar name lol!

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Bigshoes, WHAT gives you the right to have a go at my post??? We ALL have a right to question things that appear wrong and that's all I was doing!!!!!! Maybe your just jealous over my similar name lol!

 

In fact, until Bigshoes...bigsocks put their unwanted tu'pennyworth in, I believed that CAG was a site to be relied on, where it was full of very pleasant people who are extremely generous with their time and free advice. Now, after Bigshoes' intrusion, I am not filled with confidence to post anymore threads in case of being ridiculed. Bigshoes....you are not a member of a lending service by any chance are you???

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Lets calm ths down now.

 

The situation is that when a debt is sold the debt purchaser aquires the rights and obligations of the original creditor as set down in the original terms and conditions

of the account.

 

Big Shoooz, Please be aware there a peoplel who just love to to spout nonsense to get attention ignore them and the site team will deal with them appropriately.

 

Brig.

Any Letters I Draft are N0T approved by CAG and no personal liability is accepted.

Please Consider making a donation to keep this site running!

Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit: Animo et Fide:

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