DHL invoicing me for VAT + admin fee "paid on my behalf"...?

[BazzaS]

Courtesy? Yeah, right, pull the other one. Are you hearing yourself here? Are you really asking anyone to take you seriously when your argument is that DHL are doing this out of courtesy?

 

Let's try this from a logical point of view, since that seems to escape you: DHL are paid to deliver the parcel to my address. If they try and say to their customers "well, we'll bring it in the UK but the customers will come and have to pick up the stuff themselves", they wouldn't stay in business very long, simple as that. So no, they're not doing it out of courtesy, but because they want to keep on making money, which is fair and good, no argument from me there.

 

Let me ask you this: if they delivered the parcel to my address as per their contractual arrangements with the seller and ask me then to pay them back the VAT on receipt of the goods, would you feel it would be reasonable for them to still charge that £5 fee? Even though all they're doing what they're paid for to do, haven't incurred additional costs (ok, maybe pennies in lost interest if that)?

 

See, you're the one who's not being logical here. You got on your irrelevant moral high horse and refuse to see the very basic logic that goes hand in hand with contractual obligations. That's your choice, of course.

 

Their contract with the seller will no doubt cover the fact that if VAT or duty is to be paid, it is the buyer's responsibility.

 

I'm sure their T's & C's will hold them not liable for a failure to deliver if HMRC won't release the item.

 

I've been careful not to make moral judgements, but to look at the contractual obligations.

The one making the moral assumptions is you : that they'd go out of business by pointing out that the buyer is responsible for paying duty, and that if many people decline to pay their admin charge, they could just stop advancing it for you.

 

They could choose to allow you to be fully responsible for paying the VAT / duty, and say to the seller : we'll discharge our responsibility to you and deliver the item when HMRC allow it to be released : when the duty / VAT have been paid.

 

They have no obligation to you to pay it on your behalf : they have no contract with you. They can't be liable to the seller for non-delivery if you choose not to pay the VAT or duty : which you may find if you decline their admin charge & try the same again, in which case they'll be well within their rights to wait for you to sort out anything due to HMRC.

Edited December 19, 2012 by BazzaS

[Crazy Diamond]

The one making the moral assumptions is you : that they'd go out of business by pointing out that the buyer is responsible for paying duty, and that if many people decline to pay their admin charge, they could just stop advancing it for you.

Do you know the meaning of the word "moral"? An economic decision has nothing to do with morality, otherwise we'd have a lot more ethical business, when it seems to be anything but in most cases!

 

They have no obligation to you to pay it on your behalf : they have no contract with you. They can't be liable to the seller for non-delivery if you choose not to pay the VAT or duty : which you may find if you decline their admin charge & try the same again, in which case they'll be well within their rights to wait for you to sort out anything due to HMRC.

But I will pay the VAT.

 

You've not answered my question, though: Let me ask you this:

 

if they delivered the parcel to my address as per their contractual arrangements with the seller and ask me then to pay them back the VAT on receipt of the goods, would you feel it would be reasonable for them to still charge that £5 fee? Even though all they're doing what they're paid for to do, haven't incurred additional costs?

[BazzaS]

 

if they delivered the parcel to my address as per their contractual arrangements with the seller and ask me then to pay them back the VAT on receipt of the goods, would you feel it would be reasonable for them to still charge that £5 fee? Even though all they're doing what they're paid for to do, haven't incurred additional costs?

 

Your question remains flawed.

They have no obligation to pay the VAT on your behalf.

They can choose to wait for you to pay the VAT, and not be in breach of their contract with the seller.

 

Royal Mail do this, as a previous poster highlighted and you have yet to acknowledge.

[Crazy Diamond]

Your question remains flawed.

They have no obligation to pay the VAT on your behalf.

They can choose to wait for you to pay the VAT, and not be in breach of their contract with the seller.

 

Royal Mail do this, as a previous poster highlighted and you have yet to acknowledge.

 

Not true, their contract is to deliver to my home address.

 

Yes, RM expect you to go your local PO and do this, what of it? They however do not charge an admin fee, which I know as I have had to do this before. How is this relevant to how DHL conduct their business? I don't have a problem with that at all, I have a problem with companies doing something "for me" and assuming that it's ok to charge me a fee for doing it.

 

So no, my question is not flawed, it's perfectly logical: If they turn up at my door to complete their side of the contract with the seller and ask me to pay for VAT at the door, would it still be appropriate for them to charge me a fee? I say not.

[BazzaS]

Not true, their contract is to deliver to my home address.

 

Yes, RM expect you to go your local PO and do this, what of it? They however do not charge an admin fee, which I know as I have had to do this before. How is this relevant to how DHL conduct their business? I don't have a problem with that at all, I have a problem with companies doing something "for me" and assuming that it's ok to charge me a fee for doing it.

 

So no, my question is not flawed, it's perfectly logical: If they turn up at my door to complete their side of the contract with the seller and ask me to pay for VAT at the door, would it still be appropriate for them to charge me a fee? I say not.

 

From Royal Mail's website:

"If you are receiving a package from overseas (unless it’s from another EU Country), please be aware that it may incur customs charges. Any package assessed by HM Revenue and customs as being liable for customs charges will also incur a Royal Mail handling fee of £8."

http://www.royalmail.com/delivery/mail-advice/customs-information?campaignid=customs_redirect

 

From DHL's website:

http://www.dhlguide.co.uk/pay-duty-and-vat/

Which explains (amongst other things, how the contract with the seller leaves the buyer liable for duty & admin charges, unless the seller chooses to pay the duty)

 

You are saying how you'd like things to be, rather than as they are.

Your question remains flawed, for the reasons stated.

Edited December 20, 2012 by BazzaS

[Crazy Diamond]

And you're saying that rather than answering it because you know very well I have a valid point, but you won't admit it. You give your opinion and state it as fact, without any evidence to back it up. I know what DHL says, it's the same as what they sent me with the invoice, the fact they try do this still doesn't make it legal. Can you see anywhere where they state that under Act of Parliament XYZ, or under the T&Cs of our agreement I have to pay this? No, neither can I. Funny that.

 

BTW, I don't care what RM's site states, I have had to collect goods from the PO that came from the state and pay the VAT over the counter, not once have I been asked to pay an admin fee, so make of that what you will.

 

Anyway, just running around in circles now, it's obvious no-one can answer the question of the contractual legality, which was the only thing I was after, so I'll just have to see what DHL's response is, won't I...?

[BazzaS]

And you're saying that rather than answering it because you know very well I have a valid point, but you won't admit it. You give your opinion and state it as fact, without any evidence to back it up. I know what DHL says, it's the same as what they sent me with the invoice, the fact they try do this still doesn't make it legal. Can you see anywhere where they state that under Act of Parliament XYZ, or under the T&Cs of our agreement I have to pay this? No, neither can I. Funny that.

 

BTW, I don't care what RM's site states, I have had to collect goods from the PO that came from the state and pay the VAT over the counter, not once have I been asked to pay an admin fee, so make of that what you will.

 

Anyway, just running around in circles now, it's obvious no-one can answer the question of the contractual legality, which was the only thing I was after, so I'll just have to see what DHL's response is, won't I...?

 

So, when faced with facts (from RM's website), you choose to ignore them, and say "you don't care".

So, who is the one without evidence to back themselves up?

 

One wonders why RM would not seek their fee?. Possibly they were enamoured of your attitude and reasonableness (as you have demonstrated on this thread) and chose to seek the solution that got you out of their premises as rapidly as possible?.

 

It seems you just denigrate any response that doesn't agree with how you wish things were, and you just say you "don't care" when presented with evidence you are wrong.

 

You may "get away with it" with DHL this time.

You may even do so again in future, possibly even multiple times.

 

However, if you do, you are at risk that at some point in the future you'll get a note saying "item held for customs clearance" and they'll leave you to sort it out.

[Crazy Diamond]

So, when faced with facts (from RM's website), you choose to ignore them, and say "you don't care".

That's not a fact, that's a website page on the Internet. Do you believe everything on the Internet? Have you never found pages that put up wrong info by mistake?

So, who is the one without evidence to back themselves up?

Ooooh you got me there, I can't prove that I didn't get charged when I went to collect my stuff, silly me, I didn't keep the receipt from months ago in case someone on an internet forum decided that I would make somethign like that up, for reasons best known to myself presumably.

 

One wonders why RM would not seek their fee?. Possibly they were enamoured of your attitude and reasonableness (as you have demonstrated on this thread) and chose to seek the solution that got you out of their premises as rapidly as possible?.

Or maybe, just maybe, and I am just putting that one out there... there wasn't a fee apart from the VAT and their website is incorrect and so I paid the money I owed, said thank you very much and they said you're welcome and gave me my parcel, I said goodbye, they said goodbye and yes, what an attitude to have, kill them with politeness I say.

 

It seems you just denigrate any response that doesn't agree with how you wish things were, and you just say you "don't care" when presented with evidence you are wrong.

Denigrate? You're the one who's just made up a story imagining that I must have been such a terrible customer that RM couldn't wait to get me out of their premises!!! And you accuse ME of denigration? Pot or kettle, much? As for the "evidence", like I said, it's not evidence, it's a page on the website.

 

You may "get away with it" with DHL this time.

What, get away with not paying money they have no right to charge me? Gasp, horror.

You may even do so again in future, possibly even multiple times.

well, the world is due to end in a few hours, so fingers crossed, hey?

 

However, if you do, you are at risk that at some point in the future you'll get a note saying "item held for customs clearance" and they'll leave you to sort it out.

Oh no. I quiver in fear. Oh no, hang on, I don't.

[Westmead Fan]

here is a question,

if DHL paid the VAT for the customer, don't company's get charged for making transactions through there banks???

when they have paid the VAT, which is not there's to pay, in theory wouldn't that make them out of pocket, why should they be out of pocket this is way they maybe add some sort of fee (whether its £1, £5 or more) & if kept on doing it it soon mounts up.

[Crazy Diamond]

here is a question,

if DHL paid the VAT for the customer, don't company's get charged for making transactions through there banks???

when they have paid the VAT, which is not there's to pay, in theory wouldn't that make them out of pocket, why should they be out of pocket this is way they maybe add some sort of fee (whether its £1, £5 or more) & if kept on doing it it soon mounts up.

 

Now that is at last a sensible reasoning!

... although it doesn't answer the question as to whether they can then impose that fee on me.

 

If it were me who had this type of business, I'd factor that possible cost into the fee I charge the person with whom I had the contract though. This way, if I ended up paying VAT, my costs would have already been covered so I wouldn't need to charge a fee to the recipient, knowing that not having a contract with them would be relying solely on their good will to pay up, if I didn't end up paying VAT on their behalf, then it would all be profit to my company.

[BazzaS]

Now that is at last a sensible reasoning!

... although it doesn't answer the question as to whether they can then impose that fee on me.

 

If it were me who had this type of business, I'd factor that possible cost into the fee I charge the person with whom I had the contract though. This way, if I ended up paying VAT, my costs would have already been covered so I wouldn't need to charge a fee to the recipient, knowing that not having a contract with them would be relying solely on their good will to pay up, if I didn't end up paying VAT on their behalf, then it would all be profit to my company.

 

1) Its not you who has the business, see my previous comments re: you saying how you think things should be, not as they are.

 

2) DHL (as I've previously noted) already offer the seller the choice of if to pay the VAT. If the VAT is still your responsibility, it is because the seller has chosen not to take up that option with DHL. To force the seller to take up that option might make DHL less commercially attractive to the seller : who is who has the contract with DHL and who is paying the bulk of the profit DHL make. See my previous comments re: "you can't have it both ways"

 

3) DHL might choose not to "rely on your good will to pay up" in future, and leave you to sort the customs clearance.

Their T's & C's won't leave them liable for non-delivery until you have sorted any taxes / duty due : All they'd have to say when the seller contacts them when you whinge you haven't received your delivery is "Seller: you chose to leave VAT to the recipient, recipient has previously chosen not to pay our admin fee, so we respect both of your choices : seller choice not to pay the VAT, buyer choice to not pay our (reasonable) admin fee and sort out the customs clearance themself"

[Crazy Diamond]

... all of which still doesn't go near the original question of "obligation" to pay an admin fee between 2 entities that don't have a contract binding them. Never mind. *sigh*

[BazzaS]

... all of which still doesn't go near the original question of "obligation" to pay an admin fee between 2 entities that don't have a contract binding them. Never mind. *sigh*

 

OK ... Last attempt. I'm done after this.

You don't have to pay the admin fee if you didn't agree it in advance, but equally they don't have to pay the duty in advance for you. The absence of a contract between you for them to advance the duty on your behalf cuts both ways.

 

 

The consequence of YOU not paying the fee is that they might choose to not offer that facility for YOU in future, and you'll be left to sort out customs clearance AND you won't be able to claim they aren't discharging their agreement with the seller.

 

If lots if people are as short-sighted and also refuse to pay the reasonable fee, they might withdraw the facility, or institute a scheme where they send a card saying "customs clearance needed, we can sort it for you for duty owed + £5, or you can sort it yourself".

Then, a contract may well be formed, but adding delay.

As there would be more admin then, they might also choose to charge a higher rate.

To re-iterate : since they offer the seller the choice of paying the duty or leaving it up to you, it is unlikely the seller would be put off using them if they chose to do this.

 

Fortunately, based on the other responders here, most people realise that the £5 fee isn't unreasonable to avoid the delay and hassle.

 

Considering ONLY the contractual aspects may leave you with your Pyrrhic victory.

[Crazy Diamond]

No need for a "last attempt", I got you loud and clear from your first post, believe me, you've not been exactly subtle, although rather disingenuous, time and again.

 

It reminds me of DCAs when they try to coerce you into paying something you don't owe but they hope you'll never question it because their business model would then collapse. You even use the legendary "may" word.

[Crapstone]

Where is the sender in all this? You shouldn't be invoiced AFTER you have received the goods. That's like buying a sofa and finding out you have another £200 fee to pay 14 days later you didn't expect. It should be made clear and the consumer given the choice to collect. Not just to have it thrust upon them by a delivery company they didn't ask for.

 

The arguement FOR paying the fee is rubbish. There is no contract between the delivery company and the recipient. I think people would rather know the charge in advance and make a choice whatever the cost.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Crapstone

[Crapstone]

OK ... Last attempt. I'm done after this.

You don't have to pay the admin fee if you didn't agree it in advance, but equally they don't have to pay the duty in advance for you. The absence of a contract between you for them to advance the duty on your behalf cuts both ways.

 

 

The consequence of YOU not paying the fee is that they might choose to not offer that facility for YOU in future, and you'll be left to sort out customs clearance AND you won't be able to claim they aren't discharging their agreement with the seller.

 

If lots if people are as short-sighted and also refuse to pay the reasonable fee, they might withdraw the facility, or institute a scheme where they send a card saying "customs clearance needed, we can sort it for you for duty owed + £5, or you can sort it yourself".

Then, a contract may well be formed, but adding delay.

As there would be more admin then, they might also choose to charge a higher rate.

To re-iterate : since they offer the seller the choice of paying the duty or leaving it up to you, it is unlikely the seller would be put off using them if they chose to do this.

 

Fortunately, based on the other responders here, most people realise that the £5 fee isn't unreasonable to avoid the delay and hassle.

 

Considering ONLY the contractual aspects may leave you with your Pyrrhic victory.

 

All and any contract terms should be clear and agreed. Trying to enforce something after the contract had been made in full is not agreeable. It should be a question of law and not a moral highground. Let them withdraw their delivery. People vote with their feet and like an option and not to be forced into something they didn't agree to in the first place.

 

£5 is £5, not a lot really but in context it is if you didn't ask for that charge. If you'd have known then you would have shopped elsewhere and to say it's not unreasonable to avoid hassle and delay is weird. I'd rather not just have an unexpected bill and do without! Or at least have a choice and be able to reject.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Crapstone

[Crazy Diamond]

Finally someone who gets what I have been trying to say from the start! I was starting to think I was the only one who saw the flaw there!

[Conniff]

No similarity whatsoever.

 

It should be made clear and the consumer given the choice to collect.

 

"I'm just popping over to China to collect my smartphone" - yea right.

[san_d]

No similarity whatsoever.

 

 

 

"I'm just popping over to China to collect my smartphone" - yea right.

Back in the day, you would go and collect goods from abroad directly at the customs offices.

 

I think the OP has never ordered from overseas before. Customs have agreements with all major couriers to have them collect the customs charges on behalf of the HMRC. Couriers apply an admin fee to this collection. What is the OP's point?

[Conniff]

I think the OPs point is that they bought an item for £xx and delivery £xx and customs charge of £xx but when it arrived there was yet another bill for £5 which wasn't declared at purchase so no agreement was made to pay any extra charges.

There was no letter asking if she wanted the customs charges to be paid by the delivery company or not, so wasn't given the chance to accept or decline.

[stu007]

Hi

 

This Link to DHL Pay Duty and VAT FAQ may be of help: http://www.dhlguide.co.uk/pay-duty-and-vat/

 

Why should I and not the Shipper pay Duty and VAT Charges?:

 

The person receiving a shipment is obliged to pay Duty and VAT except where the person sending the shipment has agreed to accept these charges. Private individuals intending to buy goods on the Internet from non-EU countries should be particularly careful. The price advertised on the supplier’s website will not include UK Duty and VAT and you will be expected to pay this once the shipment arrives in the UK.

 

If you have agreed with the shipper that he will be paying the charges, then the shipper should indicate this on the Invoice or AWB. Otherwise Duty and VAT is charged to a receiver.

 

I've already payed for delivery - Why is DHL Invoicing me?:

 

This invoice is not for delivery charges. The invoice relates purely to import duties and other applicable government taxes such as VAT that were levied by Customs when your shipment arrived in the country. DHL paid these duties on your behalf in order to comply with Customs regulations and to ensure your goods were delivered without delay. Unfortunately, we are not able to tell you in advance of the costs.

 

Weren't these costs included when I paid for my goods?:

 

Retailers (internet or catalogue) will normally include advice about import duties on their shipping information pages. You may wish to check the Terms and Conditions of your purchase.

 

Why am I paying Tax on Delivery Charges?:

 

Under current regulations the cost of delivery is added to the declared value of the product to make the shipment’s “value for Customs”. If the sender has not supplied a shipping value, a value is used that is based on the weight of the shipment as per the Customs scale of charges. This calculation will also include a VAT Value Adjustment which is the cost of transport within the EU borders, liable to VAT only.

 

How are Duty and Vat Calculated?:

 

For more information please call us on 0844 248 0777

 

Why have you given me a Customer Number?:

 

In order for us to raise an invoice we have allocated you a customer number but this is not a formal DHL account and has no shipping facilities. If you already have a DHL account then continue to use this for all shipping.

 

Why did you bill the Duty Charges to my account? We agreed with a sender/3rd party that they will pay the duties

 

The sender/3rd party should indicate on the backup documents they wish to be billed. If they have not done so, we will need you to get their written authorisation to confirm that this is what is wanted – then we will be able to re-issues charges to a sender.

Edited December 30, 2012 by stu007

[Crapstone]

But what if someone sends you an item that is a gift and you didn't ask for it?

[Crapstone]

 

"I'm just popping over to China to collect my smartphone" - yea right.

 

That's ridiculous and you're just trying to be awkward. The consumer should have the right to reject the goods and let customs keep the item if they don't want to pay the charges. I've been billed £31.03 for something I didn't order and FedEx are quite welcome to come and take the items back as I won't be paying anything. The sender was fully informed of all the charges by FedEX and was told there would be nothing more to pay by any party.

[Crazy Diamond]

Hi

 

This Link to DHL Pay Duty and VAT FAQ may be of help: http://www.dhlguide.co.uk/pay-duty-and-vat/

 

(...)

 

 

These are just DHL's FAQ, of course they would say that, in fact that's what they sent with their bill.

[stu007]

Hi

 

Yes these are DHL FAQ but have you also checked the sellers website on customs/VAT charges and also asked them about these extra charges.

 

DHL International Terms and Conditions

 

Important Notice

 

When ordering DHL’s services you, as “Shipper”, are agreeing, on your behalf and on behalf of anyone else with an interest in the Shipment, that the Terms and Conditions shall apply from the time that DHL accepts the Shipment unless otherwise agreed in writing by an authorised officer of DHL.

 

“Shipment” means all documents or parcels that travel under one waybill and which may be carried by any means DHL chooses, including air, road or any other carrier. A “waybill” shall include any label produced by DHL automated systems, waybill, or consignment note and shall incorporate these Terms and Conditions. Every Shipment is transported on a limited liability basis as provided herein. If Shipper requires greater protection, then insurance may be arranged at an additional cost. (Please see below for further information). “DHL” means any member of the DHL Express Network.

 

Customs, Exports and Imports

 

DHL may perform any of the following activities on Shipper’s behalf in order to provide its services to Shipper: (1) complete any documents, amend product or service codes, and pay any duties or taxes required under applicable laws and regulations, (2) act as Shipper’s forwarding agent for customs and export control purposes and as Receiver solely for the purpose of designating a customs broker to perform customs clearance and entry and (3) redirect the Shipment to Receiver’s import broker or other address upon request by any person who DHL believes in its reasonable opinion to be authorised.

 

Deliveries and Underliverable

 

Shipments cannot be delivered to PO boxes or postal codes. Shipments are delivered to the Receiver’s address given by Shipper (which in the case of mail services shall be deemed to be the first receiving postal service) but not necessarily to the named Receiver personally. Shipments to addresses with a central receiving area will be delivered to that area. If the Shipment is deemed to be unacceptable, or it has been undervalued for customs purposes, or Receiver cannot be reasonably identified or located, or Receiver refuses delivery or to pay for delivery, DHL shall use reasonable efforts to return the Shipment to Shipper at Shipper’s cost, failing which the Shipment may be released, disposed of or sold by DHL without incurring any liability whatsoever to Shipper or anyone else, with the proceeds applied against service charges and related administrative costs and the balance of the proceeds of a sale to be returned to Shipper.

 

Shipment Charges

 

DHL’s Shipment charges are calculated according to the higher of actual or volumetric weight and any Shipment may be re-weighed and re-measured by DHL to confirm this calculation. Shipper shall pay or reimburse DHL for all Shipment charges, ancillary charges, duties and taxes owed for services provided by DHL or incurred by DHL on Shipper’s or Receiver’s or any third party’s behalf and all claims, damages, fines and expenses incurred if the Shipment is deemed unacceptable for transport

 

DHL's Liability

 

DHL’s liability is strictly limited to direct loss and damage only and to the per kilo/Ib limits in this Section 6. All other types of loss or damage are excluded (including but not limited to lost profits, income, interest, future business), whether such loss or damage is special or indirect, and even if the risk of such loss or damage was brought to DHL’s attention before or after acceptance of the Shipment. If a Shipment combines carriage by air, road or other mode of transport, it shall be deemed to have been carried by air. DHL’s liability in respect of any one Shipment transported, without prejudice to Sections 7-11, is limited to its actual cash value and shall not exceed:

 

• $US 25.00/kilogram or $US 11.34/lb for Shipments transported by air or other non-road mode of transportation; or
  
• $US 12.00/kilogram or $US 5.44 /lb for Shipments transported by road.
  

Claims are limited to one claim per Shipment settlement of which will be full and final settlement for all loss or damage in connection therewith. If Shipper regards these limits as insufficient it must make a special declaration of value and request insurance as described in Section 8 (Shipment Insurance) or make its own insurance arrangements, failing which Shipper assumes all risks of loss or damage.

 

International Conventions

 

If the Shipment is transported by air and involves an ultimate destination or stop in a country other than the country of departure, the Montreal Convention, or the Warsaw Convention as applicable, governs. For international road transportation, the Convention for the International Carriage of Goods by Road (CMR) may apply. These conventions limit DHL’s liability for loss or damage.

 

Shipper's Warranties and Indemnity

 

Shipper shall indemnify and hold DHL harmless for any loss or damage arising out of Shipper’s failure to comply with any applicable laws or regulations and for Shipper’s breach of the following warranties and representations:

 

• all information provided by Shipper or its representatives is complete and accurate;
  
• the Shipment was prepared in secure premises by Shipper’s employees
  
• Shipper employed reliable staff to prepare the Shipment;
  
• Shipper protected the Shipment against unauthorised interference during preparation, storage and transportation to DHL;
  
• the Shipment is properly marked and addressed and packed to ensure safe transportation with ordinary care in handling;
  
• all applicable customs, import, export and other laws and regulations have been complied with; and
  
• the waybill has been signed by Shipper’s authorised representative and the Terms and Conditions constitute binding and enforceable obligations of Shipper.
  

Governing Law

 

Any dispute arising under or in any way connected with these Terms and Conditions shall be subject, for the benefit of DHL, to the non-exclusive jurisdiction of the courts of, and governed by the law of, the country of origin of the Shipment and Shipper irrevocably submits to such jurisdiction, unless contrary to applicable law.

Edited December 31, 2012 by stu007