Need urgent appeal advice - ** WON **

[wiggles40]

Hi Nagasis and Binary1

 

Thank you for your points and i do take on board the situation both my son and the MD may well be in, However, my son spent near on 6 hours writing a 3 page letter with loads of paragraphs, not one of the paragraphs was mentioned apart from the one about witnessing others! I told my son he should not of given names regardless, but going back to my earlier post about the statement made by the HR manager that implied a decision had already been made before i went in, surely thats not right?

 

This was an official appeal, i saw the MD before my son went into the appeal with he's representative, i did not discuss the allegations with the MD just mainly a character reference, and to verify about he's dad and the situation my son was in that weekend.....

 

To be honest IF my son came out with a lesser sentance which enabled him to get another job with a reference i would be over the moon, not sure i want him to work for this company anymore. but thats my sons decision at the end of the day!

[Binary1]

Wiggles, that might be the best outcome for your son. I dont think an employer is allowed to give a bad reference, and hopefully its no skin off their noses to give your son a glowing reference. He didn't actually take anything. He was totally honest when challenged, and he has acted with respect throughout ( maybe not to you lol). I hope he and you get the outcome you will both be happy with. Its such a shame this has all been blown out of proportion for your son. If it were me, I would have just called him in when it all happened and read the riot act, then that would have been the end of it. I think they have been very harsh with your son, and are maybe just trying to make an example to the other members of staff of ' if you dare think about borrowing any items of equiptment thats what will happen to you' . I hope it all turns out well for your son x

[becky2585]

I dont think an employer is allowed to give a bad reference, and hopefully its no skin off their noses to give your son a glowing reference.

 

Urban myth - a reference can be terrible, as long as its honest. Dismissed for gross misconduct (theft) would unfortunately be an honest reference here...

[wiggles40]

Thank you Binary1, yes they have admitted they setting an example to others ,however there not consistant with there discipline which we have highlighted, someone else actually got caught do paid private work with company equipment BUT kepted he's job,

they also know that we know the company made a huge mistake over my sons accident at work and they didn't follow the correct H&S procedure,which HR and the MD have only been informed about, so there not in the greatest of places at the moment with there own procedures, but i will bite my tongue and bide my time till we get result x Thank you tho for your kind supportive words! x

[wiggles40]

Urban myth - a reference can be terrible, as long as its honest. Dismissed for gross misconduct (theft) would unfortunately be an honest reference here...

 

Hi Becky

 

Yes i agree with you there, hence i want to push to the bitter end even if to get sentence lessened so he can move on to another job, i did tell the MD that i will fight to the end over there accusation that my son is a thief which he isn't and they excepted that in the interview but still done him for that under gross misconduct!

[Binary1]

But it wasnt actually theft. He never left the premises with the item. He owned up when asked if he had the item and told them he was going to borrow it to do his fathers car.

Where I used to work, we were not allowed to give a bad reference. We would be sent a 'questionnaire' from ex employees prospective new employers . The questionnaire asked questions regarding time keeping, work experience etc and also asked 'would you re employ this person'. Although we could not actually write a bad reference, of course if you put a X in the 'would you re employ this person', it would probably ring little alarm bells. I still think the company are being very harsh on this lad.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Binary1
spelling

[wiggles40]

But it wasnt actually theft. He never left the premises with the item. He owned up when asked if he had the item and told them he was going to borrow it to do his fathers car.

Where I used to work, we were not allowed to give a bad reference. We would be sent a 'questionnaire' from ex employees prospective new employers . The questionnaire asked questions regarding time keeping, work experience etc and also asked 'would you re employ this person'. Although we could not actually write a bad reference, of course if you put a X in the 'would you re employ this person', it would probably ring little alarm bells. I still think the company are being very harsh on this lad.

 

I as well as the company know it wasn't theft, also another allegation that he engaged directly or indirectly in any other business, ie; being paid for private work/taken business away from the company, the MD agreed both to me and my son that he believed no money would of been exchanged and he to wouldn't charge a family member, so why they done him for that to!!!!

It comes across to me that employee's don't stand a chance, always an answer or a way for the employer! It's down to luck now i guess, either way i am proud of my son today for doing he's best and speaking up and apologising and....oh yes, Grassing!!!! Grrrrr..... Think i will need a glass of wine tonight to get over that!!!

[markl1987]

The fact that they have gone away to think about it is a slightly positive outlook, you said a decision had already been made but there has been some food for thought over what came of today if they have gone away to discuss and decide, Hopefully it will be a good outcome for you both

[wiggles40]

I have to laugh tho...the MD said , right i'm going to give you a different scenario but similar to what your son has done, I work for M&S and my friend is going to a wedding and needed a suit so i took one from the shelf and gave it to him to wear for the wedding and he gave it back to me after and i put it back on the shelf,is that right or wrong he asked me!!!......My reply was its wrong because the suit is now 2nd hand and not sellable, the machine in question is not new and is re usable!...Hmm he went! hahaha

 

He also said if the machine got broke or lost or damaged, im not insured for it ( yea right) who would of had to write a cheque for a new one.... i said ME!! but we're all going on assumptions , how bout we go on facts and realitys rather than the what if's that never took place and never will!!!!

[wiggles40]

The fact that they have gone away to think about it is a slightly positive outlook, you said a decision had already been made but there has been some food for thought over what came of today if they have gone away to discuss and decide, Hopefully it will be a good outcome for you both

 

Thank you Mark and i really hope so, i just assumed they were trying to cover there back and look good to cover up the HR managers verbal mess up.... maybe i'm being a pessimist, he said to my boy he was very impressed with the letter and believed it came from the heart! .... 48 Hours away feels like an eternity ..... The MD said he wanted to sleep on it!

[Binary1]

Its also apaulling that the HR woman said to you before your son went in that they had already made their minds up! I bet she got a talking to after for saying that. By saying that she was inferring it was pointless your son appealing, which is disgraceful conduct for anHR employee to utter those words. I am with you all the way, and yes he done you proud today. On a lighter note, loved your reply to the MD about the suit being second hand, PRICELESS !! Take 48 hours rest & clear your head for now. x

[Pusillanimous]

i did tell the MD that i will fight to the end over there accusation that my son is a thief which he isn't and they excepted that in the interview but still done him for that under gross misconduct!

 

 

Wiggles, we did warn you not to bring others into it. The MD was bound to be defensive about this and he has been rubbed up the wrong way, because your son is in open denial of his need to take responsibility for his own actions. Nobody told him to remove the machine and it is annoying to the MD that your son appears to be telling the organisation that it was their fault. Wrong call. There does not need to be a staff handbook to say removing company property is not acceptable, it shoud be normal behaviour. It doesn't help that you've compounded the situation by threatening to fight to the bitter end.

 

What was needed was humility and acceptance and throwing yourself and your son on their mercy. Sorry, but it looks like you've blown it!

[wiggles40]

Wiggles, we did warn you not to bring others into it. The MD was bound to be defensive about this and he has been rubbed up the wrong way, because your son is in open denial of his need to take responsibility for his own actions. Nobody told him to remove the machine and it is annoying to the MD that your son appears to be telling the organisation that it was their fault. Wrong call. There does not need to be a staff handbook to say removing company property is not acceptable, it shoud be normal behaviour. It doesn't help that you've compounded the situation by threatening to fight to the bitter end.

 

What was needed was humility and acceptance and throwing yourself and your son on their mercy. Sorry, but it looks like you've blown it!

 

Hi Pusillanimous,

 

Thank you for your reply and i take on board what you have said, can i say tho, that we both have stated to the MD over and over again aswell as my son putting it in the letter that what he has done was wrong, i gave a character reference, and obviously as a mother i will fight it all the way to get the allegation of theft dropped, he even himself believed it was not theft and that no private work was undertaken!!

It was my sons choice to put in thge letter about the same situation going on continuosly since he started there of the machine being borrowed, he did ask the staff at the time what they were doing for he's mentor to respond with " Its ok to use aslong as you put back"...... Now...... one of the names he mentioned after alot of persuasion and what i feel intimidation from the MD has alledgely been verbally abusing my son for a while now and making he's lwork life intolerable, my son has just brought this to my attention, but again, beause of he's nature he just put up with it, even the line manager told the other boy not so long ago to back off as he was in my sons face verbally swearing and shouting at him, so right now my blood is boiling with these people and comnpany and in my opinion i would rather my son ran from the company like he's asrse is on fire and i would be prepared to try and fund the 3 rd year of he's apprenticeship at a college, what would be a result in my eyes is for a lesser charge, but, my son wants to go back there....apparently the MD has promised amuninty ( if that is the correct word/spelling) but this will be debateable after the decision if need be! Please don't think i have not taken on board any advice been given to us because we have taken 90% of it all with us....... It's hard to differentiate between heart and head when its your blood

 

Sorry if we have let you down but if anything i have learnt a lot from this situation

[wiggles40]

**UPDATE ** UPDAT** UPDATE** UPDATE

 

My son just received an email from the company with the outcome.............

 

HE GOT HE'S JOB BACK AND STARTS AGAIN MONDAY !!!!!!!!! )))))

 

Whatever we done yesterday worked!!! Will update further bit later as havent heard everything, i know they have lessened charges to but i dont know i was screaming with delight to hear!!!

 

You are all my earth angels and chat later just wanted to let you know

[becky2585]

Congratulations!!

[Emmzzi]

Congratulations.

 

Now.

 

What is the plan to help son learn to stand on his own two feet, because when he hits 30 and has to take him mum he'll look like an idiot.

 

YOU NEED TO ADDRESS THIS.

 

He also needs a plan for dealing with the people he just grassed up. What is that plan?

[markl1987]

Congratulations!

 

Now to second what Emmzzi says . . . gotta make sure he knows where he stands now and that next time (i hope there will never be one) he is on his own!

 

Well done though! x

[Pusillanimous]

**UPDATE ** UPDAT** UPDATE** UPDATE

 

My son just received an email from the company with the outcome.............

 

HE GOT HE'S JOB BACK AND STARTS AGAIN MONDAY !!!!!!!!! )))))

 

Whatever we done yesterday worked!!! Will update further bit later as havent heard everything, i know they have lessened charges to but i dont know i was screaming with delight to hear!!!

 

You are all my earth angels and chat later just wanted to let you know

 

 

WOOP WOOP WOOP!!! I am so happy for you!!! Well done! (Yes, I know what it is like when one's blood is boiling!) I am going to drink to your health, and make sure you keep your boy in line

[honeybee13]

Congratulations from me too and thank you for letting us know the outcome, I'm really pleased for you both. I'll alter your thread title.

 

HB

[Nagasis]

Excellent news.

 

Let's hope the MD keeps to his promise of anonymity .

 

Well done.

Now please go have a bottle of wine.

[wiggles40]

Evening Everyone......

 

Firstly THANK YOU for all your congratulations, i am still over whelmed by firstly the result my son so wanted but most of all for everyones help,advice and support from you all on here, Finding this forum has been a mental lifesaver and in my eyes you all deserve a medal! You have touched my heart with your generous continuous support that i will forever be eternally grateful for!! Without you all i know we wouldn't of got where we have today!

 

@Emmzzi.... I will forever be by my sons side if he needs me, thats what mums do , He can stand on he's own to feet, just not street wise, i'm sure in time he will learn ! with regards to grassing! The MD has promised anonymity, i may get my son to email the MD tomorrow to confirm that the conversataion does not leave the room as promised, not even to the line manager, as for the boy IF it came to light and he gave my son problems ,MUMMY WILL BE THERE!!! LOL

Thank you tho for your support Emmzzi, altho you may not agree with all my parenting skills (lol) i do appreciate your kick up the back side treatment ........ xx

 

@ Mark1987 ..... Thank you for all your help and advice to, and i'm sure infact i'm certain my son will not be repeating the same mistake!!! x

 

@Pusillanimous...... Whoop Whoop!! .... Thank you to you to, for you advice and help throughout.... I was nervous after reading your post this afternoon, but i knew deep down that the conversation i had with the MD yesterday he understood where i was coming from, I may of done what not is the norm but it worked and this was mentioned in the letter from him about the personal side that i have spoke of x

 

@Honeybee..... Thank you and although i havent spoke to you on here i always knew you were therein the background looking after everyone x

 

@ Nagasis .... Thank you for your help and support ,appreciated and hey i have a straw in the bottle ** chink chink** :--) xx

 

 

This is what they have now lessened the allegation to :

 

* Removal of Company Property from the premises without permission.

 

* Breach of implied trust and confidence between you and the Company

 

So he has dropped the engaging directly etc and lessened dishonesty/theft to removal without permission.....

 

here is another part of what he wrote..............

 

My reason for overturning the decision is not because I don’t believe that you have conducted yourself in an unacceptable matter but because I believe that there are mitigating circumstances surrounding your actions that need to be further considered.

 

You have a previous unblemished work history and it is apparent that you are highly thought of by your colleagues. In addition as you are into your 3rd apprenticeship year and I am very much aware that dismissal from the business would massively impact on a very promising career and undo all the hard work you have put into your apprenticeship.

 

I accept that your actions have been naïve and your reasons misguided and I mirror your own sentiments that you are an inexperienced naïve young man who has made a foolish mistake. In addition there has also been personal challenges disclosed, which I have taken into account as influencing your decision making process. I also accept that there have been influences within the department which may have impacted on you making the right choices.

 

Happiness is a word filled in my home tonight, i can now hang my stress head up and start to look after myself, have been on this since i was released from hospital over 2 weeks ago!! Hoping i will gain a mars bar from my boy as a thanks x

[Emmzzi]

@Emmzzi.... I will forever be by my sons side if he needs me, thats what mums do ,

 

 

I am going to tell you that that is what my mum used to say until I could not take her over bearing nature any more and went to live in a squat with the first guy who offered me an out.

 

Good parents educate their children so they are not dependant. What happens if you die first and he still can't stand on his own?

 

I think your Peggy Mitchell style stance will do son no favours at all in the long run.

[Nagasis]

Mars bar? Mr wiggles junior and senior should be treating you to your favourite place to eat, and non if this wetherspoon stuff.

[wiggles40]

I am going to tell you that that is what my mum used to say until I could not take her over bearing nature any more and went to live in a squat with the first guy who offered me an out.

 

Good parents educate their children so they are not dependant. What happens if you die first and he still can't stand on his own?

 

I think your Peggy Mitchell style stance will do son no favours at all in the long run.

 

i don't think we would ever see eye to eye on my parenting skill, and if i'm guilty for the way i have brought my children up in correctly then i will stand guilty proudly! My son can leave home at anytime he chooses, he has a girlfriend, he has in fact been abroad 8 times in 3 years,without me, so i don't chain myself to him, yes due to my health my life expectancy is not going to be a late one, my son has been through a lot Emmzzi, in fact due to he's own health issues when when younger he is very lucky to be here himself! So please don't make me feel bad about myself because i choose to love care and protect my son and daughter, i was brought up to fend for myself and i would of so loved a mum like myself..... We're all different and if you don't have children now then i'm sure your views will change if you do have any!!! Just wanted tonight to be a happy occasion but now i feel quite deflated questioning myself as a mum

[Pusillanimous]

My reason for overturning the decision is not because I don’t believe that you have conducted yourself in an unacceptable matter but because I believe that there are mitigating circumstances surrounding your actions that need to be further considered.

 

You have a previous unblemished work history and it is apparent that you are highly thought of by your colleagues. In addition as you are into your 3rd apprenticeship year and I am very much aware that dismissal from the business would massively impact on a very promising career and undo all the hard work you have put into your apprenticeship.

 

I accept that your actions have been naïve and your reasons misguided and I mirror your own sentiments that you are an inexperienced naïve young man who has made a foolish mistake. In addition there has also been personal challenges disclosed, which I have taken into account as influencing your decision making process. I also accept that there have been influences within the department which may have impacted on you making the right choices.

 

Happiness is a word filled in my home tonight, i can now hang my stress head up and start to look after myself, have been on this since i was released from hospital over 2 weeks ago!! Hoping i will gain a mars bar from my boy as a thanks x

 

Your son's MD sounds like a thoroughly decent chap. Your M&S argument was all wrong, so you should both be grateful that he had some human compassion and gave you another chance.

 

I should not worry about "grassing" as what else could he do except to demand whom your son was referring to, having brought up the subject. Expect to see a circular to "all staff" soon, reading the riot act regarding "borrowing" equipment.

 

PS The idea of taking the £7,000 equipment home on the bus was the funniest part. Better than Emmerdale Farm.