Accused of sexual harrasment

[Pusillanimous]

Problem is, as her manager, the woman concerned may well have felt obliged to laugh and joke along with you. I do not see how having Aspergers is mitigating.

[Emmzzi]

Problem is, as her manager, the woman concerned may well have felt obliged to laugh and joke along with you. I do not see how having Aspergers is mitigating.

 

I think while Robbie is senior he hasn't suggested he is in a line management role. I took it to mean higher graded and longer service, maybe in a specialist role.

 

Which does not really change your point, she may still have felt it easier to go along with things than to have a confrontation.

[o0robbie0o]

thanks. Im not really clinging to that..its just a simple fact. Im sorry to say but it is. And its accepted, not in HR as they really arent in touch with the rest of us down below but ..yep. Im not making it up. I think i get my ass slapped 3 times a day! i dont ask for it, i dont enjoy it, im not offended by it as i know its done in jest. Maybe i shouldnt mention it as i guess, it would possibly sound like an HR nightmare judging by your opinion. I havent worked in a place like that before but i guess it cant be the only one.

[o0robbie0o]

Im not her manager. She works in a different department and has a different manager. Im not really a manager, i have a higher chef grade but all in all..it doesnt make a difference in terms of salary, respect or anything else. I just get more responsibility. And absolutely no way, her behaviour was completely normal, ive know her for 4 years and i know how she is. there was no tension or difference in her

[Emmzzi]

It wouldn't be a nightmare. There are very simple ways of dealing with these things and re-setting boundaries and standards. So I'd do all of them and have a professional workplace within a month. (You may consider professional less fun, but we're not paying people to have fun!)

[o0robbie0o]

myself and my team have almost doubled our departments turnover in the year and a half ive been there. We work very hard, we dont take breaks (another HR nightmare) and yes we have fun. If we didnt, we'd go mad. How would you go about setting new boundaries to replace the onces that have been there for years. Surely you wouldnt be able to dismiss everyone who didnt tow the line

[Emmzzi]

as long as you are given the opportunity for breaks, and it isnt a driving job, if you choose not to take them, it's not my issue.

 

I've never had to sack more than one person to get a department to change behaviour.

[o0robbie0o]

can i just ask emmzzi - if dismissed for sexual harassment, needing to infrom any future employer of this would make it near impossible to continue with my career or infact obtain any type of job at all. Whos going to hire someone who was dismissed for sexual harassment in their previous job. Also i think i wouldnt be entitled to Job seekers allowance or any type of benefit due to the nature of my dismissal. This would force a productive member of society into someone who wouldnt be able to support himself or his family financially. I've never ben out of work from a young age. The prospect of being unemployable seems like a fate worse than death. Would HR consider the implications of dismissing someone or would they just think 'out of sight, out of mind'?

[o0robbie0o]

well thats what im scared of. My whole entire career being used as an example to kick the department into the shape they want it to be

[o0robbie0o]

actually this kind of response scares me a bit. When you talk about ' never had to sack more than one person' ..to me that person probably has a wife or kids, a mortgage, bills that need paying, a career he's worked hard for, a life he is trying to live. To you, its just an object in the way of you doing your job

[Emmzzi]

Of greatest importance is the impact on the victim/s and their right to work in a harrassment free environment. (And remember that may be people not directly involved, but who observe the behaviour and are uncomfortabke with it.)

 

Your personal position is not their problem.

 

It's usually a senior manager who makes the decision, HR only advise. They would have to think about what precedents they were setting for other people; and if they did not dismiss, would the person continue to behave that way, or are they likely to change (hence the suggestions I have been making to you.)

 

May be a bit premature though. I don't think you have had your investigatory interview yet? You may get an idea from that how your organisation views things.

[Sidewinder]

Your main problem here - apart from the accusation itself, and how it 'looks' - is that the whole culture within the workplace argument is going to carry very little mileage unless you can clearly demonstrate that behaviour such as this is condoned by the management. Names, dates and examples. Most employers have very strict policies when it comes to horseplay of any kind. Happy contented workforce? Sure, but where does one draw the line? Most employers are all for a happy workplace until something goes wrong - or somebody complains, and then it becomes more of a case that not only do they have to be seen to be taking action, but also to point out that such acts can result in harm to other people. So - was there a manager present? Was he or she joining in the banter, or have they done so in similar circumstances?

[o0robbie0o]

I havent had my interview yet but have been told by HR that its very serious. Yes i agree, the impact on the victim is important. But, if the victim didnt intend on making a complaint as she did not see herself as a victim ot harassed then how can an observer feel harassed? would it be the same as if i stumbled on and watched someone being mugged. Could i sue the mugger for harassment?

[Pusillanimous]

If you are going to put your mobile phone on the floor in camera (flash) mode in front of colleagues, you are part of the sexualised culture in your workplace, which cannot be appropriate. Why would you want to do that?

 

Reality check: your wife was not very happy at the news? Robbe, you are in denial.

[o0robbie0o]

Yes, the womans manager often joins in the banter. My manager often joins in on banter to but not to the extent. We are a catering department in a very big building so you can imagine we differ from other departments.

[o0robbie0o]

what do you mean by a reality check?

[Emmzzi]

Please read post 12 again for the rationale, and again read the link I posted to the legislation. It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not; the law is what it is. I can't explain it any more clearly than I have.

 

As HR I sometimes care about people I let go. Sometimes we have a wee cry together. Some I'm glad to see the back of, like any range of people there are no universal standards!

 

BUT my duty is to protect people and provide a safe place for them to work, first and foremost.

 

Sidewinder also has some good suggestions for you, any mileage in them?

 

And with that I am off to sleep!

[o0robbie0o]

i know she wasnt happy with the news. i wasnt expecting her to be. Yes i agree, the sexualized culture in my workplace is not good. there is very little i can do to change it. Yes i know it was a stupid thing to do, and no i dont want to lose my career just so others can learn from it

[o0robbie0o]

Ok great, so i guess my only option then is to admit sexual harassment, appologise and try to convince them i wont do it again.

[Emmzzi]

That's my advice but others opinions vary. Seeing that solicitor for guidance is also a plan...

[o0robbie0o]

yes. but paying for solicitor = not paying rent

it makes me feel sick thinking that someone would not feel safe at work because of me.

[Pusillanimous]

Robbie, you are in an extremely stressful situation. It is not easy, but try to focus on just telling the truth as you know it. Forget about whether you believe the charge to be right or wrong. Try to take you mind off the whole thing - go to the pictures or, every time you find yourself thinking about it, make a positive effort to think of something else. I am sure your work colleague will make a statement in your favour and in all likelihood it will just be a reprimand if you have a good track record.

[altobelli]

Hi Robbie

 

If the accusation levelled against you is as presented by HR then you don't really have a case to answer. You placed the phone on the ground with your colleague's consent and the phone went off accidentally and took the picture. It can't be a violation of her privacy and dignity seeing that she was involved in what happened and went along with it. For the accusation to be valid it would have to give full and accurate details about what the complainant felt harassed about. They would have had to have been genuinely harassed, and it would have had to have been reasonable for them to be so. Harassment does not equal uncomfortable, the latter is often used as a trigger word to get a reaction from management and HR and have a case treated as harassment when it is not.

 

What you have done is not harassment in the legal sense, I've gone through why that is the case, and I've looked at case law, and have been unable to find a case of a person winning damages for harassment for a case such as yours. There is a problem in that a lot of laypeople, and even people in HR, don't understand what harassment actually is. It isn't black or white, and there can be more than one victim. If you have been the victim of a malicious complaint or someone has complained because they are angry and not harassed, and this has been done based on your gender and the knee-jerk reaction which the person knew would follow, then you are a victim of harassment. At the moment the impact this is having on you appears far more severe then that on the complainant.

 

The problem is that while companies know they have to take harassment seriously, they often don't know the best way to do this, so anyone accused of harassment is found to be guilty. Companies don't always realise that it is on occassion appropriate to take no action (a recent religious discrimination case showed this) or that by having a fair and impartial investigation, it is perfectly acceptable to dismiss an accusation of harassment and still demonstrate that the company took the allegation seriously. Too often though, the accused doesn't get a fair hearing, I fear that you will find this in your case. My worry is that what will happen is that the accusation you receive from HR will not reflect the reality of what happened, which is what has happened so far, and that the person complaining (who may have been part of the prevailing culture) may exaggerate the impact of what happened on them.

 

I personally wouldn't apologise for something I felt I hadn't done wrong, but there is advice from people here who work in HR which supports how I feel this is likely to go, so if you feel that apologising may safeguard your job you might wish to consider doing this. If you wish to defend the accusation, it is important that you establish exactly what you are being accused of, if it is as HR are saying at the moment then if your colleague confirms that she participated in what happened willingly the complaint cannot rationally be upheld. You can use the prevailing culture as part of your defence, particularly if your accusers were part of that culture. You should also be looking at your accusers current behaviour - do they appear harassed, or are they gloating? Document anything you can think of with regards to the actions of people which may be deemed as harassment and which your potential accusers were aware of and didn't react to.

 

A happy workforce is a productive workforce, and people generally want to enjoy their work. If this was not the case then one might as well turn round to a person complaining of harassment and tell them to get on with their work. Clearly this is not the right approach to take and likewise any staff concerns about issues which make life at work less enjoyable should be taken on board.

 

You can't eradicate humour from the workplace, and banter and horseplay will always be there. This will vary depending on the specific workplace, type of organisation, etc., and its existence is recognised by law. There will be times where a person crosses the line, or where humour which was once thought appropriate is no longer deemed so. Dealing with issues like these is really down to good management and is best resolved via an informal, common sense approach, rather than using harassment as a sledgehammer.

 

Try and take your mind off things if you can, but I know this is very difficult in the circumstances. The impact of this sort of accusation is not really understood, and pervades every aspect of your life. This may be of some consolation, but I think even in the worst case, even if you lose your job, you will be able to get another one. I know of a case from a couple of years back where a person won a court case against a restaurant due to the actions of a chef (this was a particularly nasty case, it was genuine harassment and was far worse than anything you are accused of). The chef kept his job, and despite the publicity surrounding the case was able to move to other restaurants subsequent to this.

[Sidewinder]

Notwithstanding any legal advice - check your home contents insurance as there may be built in cover for employment disputes as many policies include this - if it were me, my defence would be around these points:-

 

The fact that the incident occurred cannot be in doubt - although you should make it clear that no photograph was taken of anything other than you both looking down at the camera (I can't actually see whether this was true or not from your posts?). Whilst you can't deny that with hindsight the event may well have appeared to be inappropriate to those directly involved, and you apologise wholeheartedly for that fact, you were carried away in the moment and allowed what was started as common workplace banter to stray beyond what was appropriate. Your actions with the camera were an extension of a conversation which many of you were discussing regarding a news story about somebody taking inappropriate photos, not in order to embarrass or humiliate your colleague, nor for any purposes of a sexual nature - that was the furthest thing from your mind. You misguidedly believed that you were being humorous - clearly in the light of what has happened since that was not the case and you are deeply ashamed to find yourself the subject of this allegation, which has damaged good relations both at work and at home. You would like the opportunity to apologise to the colleagues in question and fully accept that your behaviour fell short of the company's high standards or indeed those for any workplace, however in mitigation, one thing which makes the job enjoyable is the fact that there is a high degree of good natured banter between staff and that members of management frequently participate in this, however this episode has taught you a harsh lesson in knowing where the boundaries lie and that you should have known better.

 

Although guilty of behaviour which could be deemed improper, you strongly refute the allegation of sexual harassment, as the incident has been taken out of context but you can understand how this has been the case and are extremely keen to make amends. Whilst you accept that sanctions may well be warranted for your misdemeanour, you would appreciate this being for a lesser offence than a matter of gross misconduct in the light of your previous good service, and you beg for the opportunity to be able to prove your remorse.

 

The last sentence might sound a little OTT, but the key message is that you desperately want to stay, have done wrong, but not so wrong that you deserve to lose your job.

[Nystagmite]

Problem is, as her manager, the woman concerned may well have felt obliged to laugh and joke along with you. I do not see how having Aspergers is mitigating.

 

I wouldn't expect Aspergers to be a mitigating factor. It does not (I am Autistic and have friends with Aspergers who would never dream of doing such a thing) excuse behaviour like this.

 

I've had someone do a similar thing to me and I was really upset with the way they treated me. They claimed it was a joke. I could not see in any way how it was a joke.