Wrongly Issued Fare - What can I do?

[browfra]

Hi,

 

I'm really distressed and in need of help. On my birthday I travelled from Worthing to London on a advance ticket purchased online. The ticket was only valid with a railcard. When I got on at Worthing station I had my railcard. Somewhere between getting on tot the platform and getting on to the train I misplaced my railcard. (Later it was retrieved by a guard at Worthing and given back to me)....

 

On te train up I didn't realise my railcard was gone... Only at Victoria did I notice my absnet railcard. My ticket was ripped up by the guard at Victoria and I had to purchase a new one.. I was also given a £55 fine which I appealed but this appeal was unsuccessful even after I produced my railcard and explained my extenuating circumstances.

 

They are now refusing to reply to furhter correspondence.. What should I do? I refuse to pay a fine I feel is totally unjust.

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

I'm not an industry expert and hope they will be able to get here soon, but maybe I could start things off?

 

It could be me misunderstanding, but why did the guard at Victoria rip up your ticket please? I could be wrong, but I didn't think you needed to show your railcard when you exited the train, or was this on the way back?

 

When you say you got a fine of £55, do you mean a Penalty Fare? Only a court can issue a fine.

 

You say they're refusing to answer further correspondence. How many letters have there been and where do things stand at the moment?

 

Finally, it may or may not help, but are you willing to tell us which rail company it is please?

 

I hope the guys will be able to tell you what to say, but from the limited knowledge I have from visiting this forum, refusal to pay a penalty fare without convincing the rail company that you didn't deserve it could end in something more serious for you.

 

As I said, I'm not an industry insider, so please wait for the experts.

 

My best, HB

[RPI]

Assuming you were issued a Penalty Fare for no supporting document then unfortunately the Pen Fare will stand as you did not show a valid railcard when requested. Unfortunately it is one of those things, if it isn't paid then the Penalty Fare would be cancelled and the matter reported for prosecution. Best thing you can do is pay the Pen Fare and put it down to experience. However, once you have paid it is certainly worth writing to the Train Operators customer services department and explaining your case providing the relevent proof and see what they say. I know it is easy for me to say "put it down to experience" from the outside but if it isn't dealt with it will just esculate and end up a lot worse. Unfortunately there are occasions when genuine cases like this (based on what you have told us) crop up but it is just unlucky, sorry I cant be the bearer of better news but the customer services avenue is worth exploring.

[browfra]

Thanks for your replies guys..

 

Sorry I did mean penalty fare not fine.. When entering Victoria you have to provide your railcard with your ticket (at least I had to) and when I realised I'd left my railcard at Worthing Station my guard ripped up my ticket and made me buy a new one (£30) and issued me with a £55 penalty fare.

 

I think you're probably right and I will just have to pay it, i just find it so unfair that I had my ticket when I got on to the platform at Worthing and I bought a full price ticket at Victoria when it was apparent my railcard was not with me but I still got issued with a huge penalty fare!

 

I sent an initial appeal which was rejected, so I tried to write to them again and enclosed a complaints letter too but they just ignored my response (well that was 10 days ago and nothing back) and they won';t speak to me on the phone and it's near approaching 3 weeks since the fine was issued.

 

I just feel the whole thing is unjust because I went through the gates at Worthing WITH a railcard and it was a genuine mistake and the guy at Victoria was SO rude to me it had me in tears on my birthday (never nice!) and on the train up my ticket was checked and not my railkcard and if it had been at this earlier stage then maybe I wouldn't have had such a huge penalty fare!

[honeybee13]

Hello again.

 

I agree, it does sound rather heavy-handed the way you tell it.

 

The problem could be that lots of people who have deliberately tried to circumvent the rules try to get out of it by blaming the member of staff, so they will have seen what you wrote many times, as I understand it from the guys here.

 

I would try what RPI suggests. Old CodJA is good at suggesting what to write, hopefully he will look in.

 

My best, HB

[firstclassx]

If you travel with a railcard discounted ticket, you must have the railcard available at the time of travelling.

 

If you don't, then you are liable for a "No Supporting Document" Penalty Fare (if applicable), Byelaw 17/18 prosecution, or in some instances, a Regulation of Railways Act 1889 prosecution.

 

Unfourtunately, the appeal has been correctly rejected. It may be of some comfort to know that it could have been a lot worse for you if you had been reported for prosecution.

 

There is no need for any malice or "intent" to be shown.

 

Just put it down to experience, and be more careful next time.

 

(The attitute of the Revenue Protection Asst/Inspector is unfourtunately immaterial to your appeal)

[browfra]

I just think for someone who HAD the railcard on the platform to be charged such a hefty fine and then be treated as some kind of criminal is utterly unfair and bullying. I understand lots of people travel without railcards knowingly and that's why the rules are there, but I think that paying an extra £30 for a new ticket (rightly so) and then a £55 for a genuine mistake is rather unfair.

[browfra]

Hello again.

 

I agree, it does sound rather heavy-handed the way you tell it.

 

The problem could be that lots of people who have deliberately tried to circumvent the rules try to get out of it by blaming the member of staff, so they will have seen what you wrote many times, as I understand it from the guys here.

 

I would try what RPI suggests. Old CodJA is good at suggesting what to write, hopefully he will look in.

 

My best, HB

 

I have paid the fine now and will be doing this, thanks HB

[RPI]

I just think for someone who HAD the railcard on the platform to be charged such a hefty fine and then be treated as some kind of criminal is utterly unfair and bullying. I understand lots of people travel without railcards knowingly and that's why the rules are there, but I think that paying an extra £30 for a new ticket (rightly so) and then a £55 for a genuine mistake is rather unfair.

I can see why you will think it is unfair and ultimately it is unlucky however there are people out there who buy discounted tickets for their mates etc which is why the rules are so black and white, it's a fact of modern society that so many are dishonest that everybody gets tarred with the same brush. If you put a complaint letter in with your appeal then it won't have got to the TOC's customer service department as the appeals are dealt with independantly.

[Old-CodJA]

As others have said, unfortunately this charge can be justified under the rules however, we understand that will not help you from feeling hard done by. I can almost always find reasons to justify the staff action when the rules are followed, but I do have some sympathy in a situation like this.

 

'Fail to show' is the transgression in this instance, but I wouldn't lose all hope of getting some satisfaction in this case. If I were you, having paid the Penalty Fare, I would write to the Independent Penalty Fares Appeals Service and the Rail Company Customer Relations department along the following lines:

 

"Dear Sirs,

 

Reference Penalty Fare Notice Number XXXXXXXX

 

Whilst I accept that the penalty notice might be justified in a pure 'rules is rules' interpretation of the circumstances that occurred on (date), I ask that you consider that it might be deemed immoral to demand the penalty by completely ignoring the indisputable fact that anyone can make a purely human error. This is not an example of a traveller attempting to claim a discount to which they are not entitled, which is what rule 6 of the Conditions of issue & use of the Railcard seems designed to prevent.

 

I was not in breach of any rule at the start of my journey, I held and showed a valid rail ticket and valid rail card, but by human error, dropped the railcard somewhere en-route thereafter. Indeed, it can be said that the only reason that I was unable to physically show my railcard at Victoria was because it was already in the possession of the rail company representative on the train on which I travelled. This is evidenced by the fact that my valid Railcard was subsequently returned to me by the Rail Company.

 

I strongly urge that you return my penalty fare payment in full and whilst I accept that by strict interpretation of the rules, I was liable to pay for a new ticket and did do so, I might also be justified in requesting that you consider a refund of all or part of that sum too.

 

I am copying this letter to the Customer Relations department of the Rail Company and to Passenger Focus for their consideration. Please respond in writing as soon as practicable.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Etc..”

 

Contact details for Passenger Focus are: Email: [email protected]

 

The Passenger Focus helpline is open 8am – 8pm Monday – Friday and 8am – 4pm weekends.

 

Telephone: 0300 123 2350

 

Or you can write to:

Passenger Focus

FREEPOST (RRRE-ETTC-LEET)

PO BOX 4257

Manchester

M60 3AR

[Doktor]

Brownfra, I can only commiserate with you and hope that Passenger Focus can help you with this. I know from personal experience that it can feel like you've been mugged, with the added insult that the justice system is on their side. I've had my mobile stolen with threats and a penalty fare extracted with threats, the latter was worse. The rail penalty fares system, in the attempt to dissuade the intentional fare dodgers, causes misery to many ordinary law abiding people who fully accept that the train company deserve to be paid for the service they provide. I know someone who on one occasion did not buy a ticket because she was unable to for very good reasons, but in the end it was her word against theirs and she received a criminal conviction. I've twice fallen victim, genuinely believing that I had a valid ticket for the journey and in circustances which made it pretty transparent that I did not intend to avoid paying. It's not about justice, it's about the rules which are firmly written in favour of the train operators. Write to your MP, questions have been asked in parliament and the Lords about the system, one day it may change. Until then, take the car.

 

Would anyone care to disagree? I'd be genuinely interested to hear a defence of the system as it works. I've tried to get this from a number of train operator customer service people, but without success.

[andydd]

If you were travelling on a small branch line and you had made a genuine mistake it may well be that the staff would of been more sympathetic and helpful, unfortunatley the staff in lonmdon (both TOC's and TfL) are so used to fare evasion that they become like robots and act accordingly, i believe there was even an incident involving Ken Livingstone when he was major and therefore head of TfL when there was some problem with his ticket and he had a moan at how the staff dealt with it.

 

Maybe the situation would be differenet if people didnt accept the penalty fare and choose to fight it out in court ?

 

Andy