Help penalty ticket on 507 bus Waterloo London

[loadsofdosh]

To cut a long story short - I hope -

 

I have a payasyougo Oyster card with an automatic top up of £20 if amount goes below £8.

 

Got on 507 at Waterloo Statiion approx 09:10 and touched in on yellow card reader

- made funny double beeps which I think is when it is topping up so did it again and then went to back of bus.

 

Really nasty ticket inspector approached and asked to see my card

- I showed it to him and he said that I hadn't touched in and was illegally travelling on the bus

- two witnesses gave me their names and phone numbers as they saw me touch in.

 

He said I was lying that he had been watching me and I crept on the bus without touching in

(I am respectable and do not try to dodge fares).

He was trying to frame me, When I kept saying I had touched in.

 

He threw me off the bus (along with a genuine fare dodger) and accused me of trying to take his photo with my phone

- I wasn't I was trying to get a signal

 

at 9:18 issued me with an £80 penalty ticket.

 

When I asked him how much was on my oyster card he said £27 but that wasn't the point!

 

The next day I checked my oyster card statement and it showed that I had touched in at 09:10 and there was an automatic top up fo £20.

 

However, for some reason it did not deduct the £1.35 fare which it usually does directly after a top up.

 

I do not intend paying this penalty charge as I had touched in.

Even though the hateful inspector said I had not.

The proof is in my Oyster card statement

- it's just unfortunate that it failed to take my £1.35.

 

Even having an automatic top up attached to the Oyster card is no guarantee that you won't get a penalty ticket.

 

Where do I stand because I am most certainly not paying this fine (£40 if paid within 21 days).

 

I really feel this inspector is trying to frame me for whatever reason.

 

Advice appreciated please.

[transient]

As long as the oyster shows that you touched on a 507 bus at 09:10 you are fine. Contest it. I would also put a complaint in about his conduct and basically making accusations. Also he should have been able to see that you touched in when he should have checked your card ( Did he? Sounds like it as he told you the value on there ).

 

Also just because you have a degree of money on there it doesn't matter fare evaders still use this as a ploy and a "I am sure I touched in".

 

By the way is a 507 a bendy bus? I know a few are left at the minute but not sure of the 507 route.

[loadsofdosh]

thanks Transient.

 

He maintained I didn't touch in

- he checked my card twice on his machine.

 

Is a bendy bus the one where you can get in the middle of the bus which I did

- there are a couple of card readers there.

 

I wish I had got on the front of the bus because then the driver might have said something to me

because I can't understand why it only topped up my card with the £20 and the £1.35 wasn't taken - that is odd isnt it.

 

I always assumed fare dodgers hadn't got any money.

 

He was a really nasty piece of work and it was fate as I don't usually go to work via Waterloo

I just went that way because most of Whitehall was closed

I usually use Charing X mainline statio.

 

He shouted to everyone on the bus - this person just pretended to touch in!

 

I am going to contest it using my oyster card statement as evidence and the two people's details who offered to be witnesses and I am reporting him.

 

I received something through the post today which said if i don't pay the fine I will be prosecuted

but do you think my oyster statement and my witnesses will be enough

because although I topped up on the bus I didn't pay the fare.

I didn't realise you could do an automatic top up on the bus and not pay the fare.

[dx100uk]

when you post please add some blank lines

rather than one block of text.

 

i have edited your 2 previous posts

 

dx

[The Urbanite]

As long as the oyster shows that you touched on a 507 bus at 09:10 you are fine. Contest it. I would also put a complaint in about his conduct and basically making accusations. Also he should have been able to see that you touched in when he should have checked your card ( Did he? Sounds like it as he told you the value on there ).

 

Also just because you have a degree of money on there it doesn't matter fare evaders still use this as a ploy and a "I am sure I touched in".

 

By the way is a 507 a bendy bus? I know a few are left at the minute but not sure of the 507 route.

 

There are no bendy buses on TfL contracted routes in London. The 507 uses standard rigid vehicles, but have card readers by the centre doors.

 

loadsofdosh, what matters is that your Oyster card made the reader beep once and show a green light, thus allowing you to travel. If it didn't do that, then you weren't valid to travel.

[loadsofdosh]

thanks. I have sent letters off protesting my innocence and enclosing copies of my oyster card statement which clearly shows I touched in and an automatic top up was done; unfortunately no fare taken from my account.

[transient]

There are no bendy buses on TfL contracted routes in London. The 507 uses standard rigid vehicles, but have card readers by the centre doors.

 

loadsofdosh, what matters is that your Oyster card made the reader beep once and show a green light, thus allowing you to travel. If it didn't do that, then you weren't valid to travel.

Agreed also the statement will also show that too.

[transient]

thanks. I have sent letters off protesting my innocence and enclosing copies of my oyster card statement which clearly shows I touched in and an automatic top up was done; unfortunately no fare taken from my account.

The far not taken from your account is not an issue. The fact the statement shows that you touched when you were in credit will be sufficient. I am somewhat perplexed why it did not take it though. Based on what you said you should be fine.

 

Once they come back then put in a grievance. Please let us know how you get on

[loadsofdosh]

Thanks Transient for your support - I will let you know how I get on. I am finding it all very worrying though even though I am innocent. It makes me think about how people are jailed for crimes for years that they didn't commit. It has made me think about how I judge other people.

[loadsofdosh]

Have received the result of my appeal. It has failed. I can now make a second appeal at a different address. They have ignored the fact that I must have touched in as an automatic top up of £20 appeared on my statement on the time that I was on the 507 bus - they never referred to that. part of the reply was:

 

"When travelling by busy, you must touch your Oyster card flat on the card reader........It is your responsibilty to touch in correctly and to check for the green light and single beep to esnure that your card has been vaidated. Failure to touch in correctly may result in the issue of a Penalty Fare"

 

I just don't know why they have not taken the fact that I had touched to get an automatic top up into account. I assume they believe the ticket inspector who said I crept on and went immediately to the back of the bus.

 

I will appeal again but am not hopeful - I did send them the names of my witnesses and the oyster card statement but they are obviously not interested in that.

[transient]

Well I am surprised at that. I cant get over the fact that it shows you have tapped in and they still refused it.

 

The fact that it shows you tapped in on your itinery and activated the £20 debit shows it was picked up. They are just trying to be arsey now saying you should check that it bleeps and shows the green light. Surely the onus is on the bus driver to do it? Otherwise why have a different bleep noise for children? Why have I seen bus drivers refusing people when it bleeps and goes red.

 

Might be worth looking into conditions of travel with an oyster. Appeal it, I would

[The Urbanite]

Loadsofdosh, with all due respect, I think you're being given false hope by some well intending posters in this thread who are perhaps not at all familiar with the Oyster system.

 

Regardless of whether or not you have credit on the card, if proper contact is not made with the validator then it will say "seek assistance." Sometimes you have to try again a second time. This may involve positioning the card on the reader more carefully, holding it on there for longer or removing the card from wherever it is being held then validating it. Or otherwise, seek assistance.

 

Especially if you're using pre-pay, you need to make sure it validates correctly. The system is designed to make it very clear when it has validated correctly and when it hasn't.

 

I'm going to guess that you boarded through the rear doors? Had you boarded at the front and that happened on the validator by the driver's cab, no doubt the driver would have assisted. Whilst I appreciate this is a pro-consumer website, I don't agree with telling you what you want to hear for the sake of it. Baseless reassurance in this case is dangerous. I see you still haven't paid the Penalty Fare so continued dithering is likely to lead to court action against you. As far as I can ascertain, you don't have a legal leg to stand on.

 

Validating on a bus is such a simple thing to do and "seek assistance" isn't exactly a complex instruction to understand if you genuinely want to ensure the fare is paid. As far as I know, every single bus in London which accepts Oyster is staffed when in service so the user has no excuse at all for failing to validate properly. I'm even less convinced, because the 507 works on the same principle as the bendy buses, which were notorious for fare evasion, as people were allowed to bypass the bus driver. The only difference being, there isn't a bendy bit in the middle. And it's subject to more frequent checks than other routes as people using pre-pay or without a ticket still take a lax attitude to ensuring they have paid up.

 

I've been reading TfL's Fares & Revenue updates for the last couple of years and still inspect Oyster Cards during the course of my duties. I also conducted a deep level of research on Oyster after being genuinely screwed over using an Oyster Card (down to a programming weakness completely out of the user's control) and not once have I come across a situation whereby a successful validation on a bus went unrecorded.

 

As for the auto topup, it may have gone onto the card but unless the validator clearly showed that the validation was successful, by showing a green light along with your balance, then the fare would not have been paid.

Edited May 26, 2012 by The Urbanite

[loadsofdosh]

thanks to all for your words of support

 

Urbanite - every time previously when I have boarded a bus and there has been an automatic top up to my card. Immediately after my fare has been deducted. I touched in in good faith and saw a green light and heard a double beep so i touched in again. Are you saying that it is possible for me to touch in and just have the £20 top up but not have my card validated because I didnt know that could happen. I must have done something to my oyster card to make it operate the auto top up.

 

On another note, I have the problem of the ticket inspector who said he was watching me and I boarded the bus didn't touch in but went straight to the back of the bus. When two witnesses said they had seen me touch in - he said they were lying. what can I do about that?

 

I am intrigued though how I could manage to get an automatic top up on my card of £20 which clearly shows at 9:10 but not be charged for the 1:35 bus fare. How did that happen no one is able to tell me? Thank you for your reply it was informative.

[loadsofdosh]

Update - I have just paid the £40 penalty fare online but will continue to make another appeal - I am still waiting for a reply from Boris Johnson!

[transient]

Loadsofdosh, with all due respect, I think you're being given false hope by some well intending posters in this thread who are perhaps not at all familiar with the Oyster system.

 

Regardless of whether or not you have credit on the card, if proper contact is not made with the validator then it will say "seek assistance." Sometimes you have to try again a second time. This may involve positioning the card on the reader more carefully, holding it on there for longer or removing the card from wherever it is being held then validating it. Or otherwise, seek assistance.

 

Especially if you're using pre-pay, you need to make sure it validates correctly. The system is designed to make it very clear when it has validated correctly and when it hasn't.

 

I'm going to guess that you boarded through the rear doors? Had you boarded at the front and that happened on the validator by the driver's cab, no doubt the driver would have assisted. Whilst I appreciate this is a pro-consumer website, I don't agree with telling you what you want to hear for the sake of it. Baseless reassurance in this case is dangerous. I see you still haven't paid the Penalty Fare so continued dithering is likely to lead to court action against you. As far as I can ascertain, you don't have a legal leg to stand on.

 

Validating on a bus is such a simple thing to do and "seek assistance" isn't exactly a complex instruction to understand if you genuinely want to ensure the fare is paid. As far as I know, every single bus in London which accepts Oyster is staffed when in service so the user has no excuse at all for failing to validate properly. I'm even less convinced, because the 507 works on the same principle as the bendy buses, which were notorious for fare evasion, as people were allowed to bypass the bus driver. The only difference being, there isn't a bendy bit in the middle. And it's subject to more frequent checks than other routes as people using pre-pay or without a ticket still take a lax attitude to ensuring they have paid up.

 

I've been reading TfL's Fares & Revenue updates for the last couple of years and still inspect Oyster Cards during the course of my duties. I also conducted a deep level of research on Oyster after being genuinely screwed over using an Oyster Card (down to a programming weakness completely out of the user's control) and not once have I come across a situation whereby a successful validation on a bus went unrecorded.

 

As for the auto topup, it may have gone onto the card but unless the validator clearly showed that the validation was successful, by showing a green light along with your balance, then the fare would not have been paid.

If no successful contact was made then how is this possible?

 

The next day I checked my oyster card statement and it showed that I had touched in at 09:10 and there was an automatic top up fo £20.

[lanesra2005]

loadsofdosh

As an ex bus inspector for TFL the attitude of this inspector is wholly wrong and not conducive to good customer service skills. As for the double bleep..ALWAYS approach the driver because worse case scenario he can print you off a copy of your last 10 entrys on your oyster card including top ups to it. Never take a seat or travel without verifying the reason for the double beep. HEre is details to submit complaint

Buses tel: 0845 300 7000 (08:00-20:00 Monday to Friday)

Web: www.tfl.gov.uk/contact

Post: Customer Services, TfL London Buses, 4th floor, Zone Y4, 14 Pier Walk, London SE10 0ES

good luck

[loadsofdosh]

Thanks - it is helpful to know that the driver can print off your last 10 transactions. Thanks for the contact numbers as well. Often when I get on the bus and there is an automatic top up for some reason I get a double bleep so I just touch in again. I saw a green light while touching in but perhaps it was just the top up. I am not usually on the 507 but when it arrives I never seem to be near the entrance with the driver - always in the middle.

 

This particular morning - people had been waiting ages for a bus when I arrived and I had to fight to get on the bus. I would never have been able to have moved to the front of the bus to speak to the driver and the general mood of the bus crowd was not good - I think it would have been impossible to get to the driver. I am going to do my second appeal over the bank holiday - I won't be out and about but trapped in front of my computer appealing.

 

What angers me most is that I am a professional person (I know that some professional people are fare dodgers and liars and worse still murderers) but for myself I always try to be honest and decent when dealing with the public. What is worse than the penalty ticket for not touching in is the fact that the inspector said he was "watching me" and I quickly got on and sauntered to the back of the bus and sat down and never touched in. Well I did touch in I must have to get the autotop up but it seems as if he is believed and not me. How do I go about getting TFL to release CCTV pictures of me that day is that possible?

[lanesra2005]

Unfortunately, the cctv is the property of the operator. They retain it for 3 months but of course you are eligible under the FOI axct to see a copy if they still have it. If my memory serves me right the company is london general and operate from behind the cut in waterloo

[wazir]

You touched in, and with automatic top up it should have deducted the fare. Once you pay, getting the money back is hard - I presume you sent a letter (proof of delivery) saying you paid 'under protest'.

The 507 is an ex-bendy bus, you can get on at any of the three doors, and can't buy tickets from the driver.

Don't wait for a reply from Boris, I've written before and had nothing back, and whilst on holiday I met a city hall employee who confirmed he doesn't answer letters. He's just slightly smarter tan the tory MP caught binning constituents letters in St James' park a year or two back.

[loadsofdosh]

Thanks Wazir - Good grief I dont stand much chance, looks like Boris isn't going to be interested either. I am now going to write my appeal. I am gutted that I have had to pay £40 when I am innocent and it looks as if I will not get it back. As it doesnt look as if Boris won't reply I have decided to write to my MP who happens to be Boris's brother - I wonder if he will reply.

[loadsofdosh]

A result - made my second appeal and received a letter saying that after careful consideration the penalty fare was correctly charged but that in the particular circumstances of this case, payment of the penalty will be waived. No further actiion will be required on your part. Apologies for the inconvenience caused to me. Not sure what this is all about... But a good result for me.

 

However, how do I get my £40 back. I have written to the appeals administrator informing them that I have already paid £40 and could it be refunded. But I know many of you have said I will have difficulty getting it back. Wish I hadn't paid but then knowing my luck my second appeal would have failed and I would have to cough up £80. Another person from TFL contacted me by email to ask details about the ticket inspector and whether I wanted to make a formal complaint which I did. Any suggestions about how to recoup my £40 would be much appreciated. I am paranoid when I get on the bus now just in case there is something wrong with my card.

[iambilly]

The ticket inspector sounds really mean, I hope you get away with it.

 

Just one question how do you start a new post thread thing, because I am finding it quite hard to find it.

 

Sorry for asking I just really need help.

[Grotesque]

Update - I have just paid the £40 penalty fare online but will continue to make another appeal - I am still waiting for a reply from Boris Johnson!

 

Who has far grander plans than just ripping you off... he's legally mugging the rest of London.

[honeybee13]

The ticket inspector sounds really mean, I hope you get away with it.

 

Just one question how do you start a new post thread thing, because I am finding it quite hard to find it.

 

Sorry for asking I just really need help.

 

Hello again.

 

I already started a thread for you. Here's a link, probably best to post on that.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?354702-Caught-using-someone-else-s-Freedom-pass-trying-to-settle-out-of-court

 

My best, HB