On ESA WRAG. So confused...

[Dick Emery]

They must of changed the format of the letter?

The letter I received (a couple of weeks ago) concerning my change over from IB to ESA contained a section:-

The address on the letter was "jobcentre plus".

 

I think that is on there but I did not interpret that as being able to obtain the WCA results (The scoring). I did not even know I could obtain them (until recently).

Edited May 24, 2012 by Dick Emery

[down'n'out]

I think that is on there but I did not interpret that as being able to obtain the WCA results (The scoring).

 

Within the section of the letter I mentioned, is "ask for a written statement of reasons for our decision". The WCA results are part of the "reasons" for the decision outcome, so those need to be supplied with the statement. If they are not supplied after request, send a SAR to obtain them.

[Slatted]

I am also finding the roundabout dizzying and am on it both for me and my husband (he has just converted from IB to contribution based ESA WRAG and I am getting things ready to ask for review and then Appeal if necessary) for whom I am appointee so "spinny" doesnt cover it at all"!

 

Noting what was said about contribution versus income based ESA you can apply to be on Income based even if they have put you on contribution based. It may have some additional benefits to doing so other than the 12 month rule...I think things like dental treatments etc are also only free if on income based...

 

I am also doing this for my husband....another 38 page form....lovely.......as he was placed on the contribution based option automatically.....

 

The whole situation is stupid and I am not sure how being forced to do things on set days can be legal given the fact that , to all intents and purposes, being on ESA means we have been declared unfit for work by a medical professional. Surely Employers Liability Insurance and other Insurance would not cover if you became very ill or even died whilst attending whatever it is they mandate for you?

 

I bet GPs and other medical professionals are p'd off with being treated as if they know nothing....so much for the years of study....and I think I have read somewhere that they are also getting inundated with report requests for appeals etc...so how is that saving time and money for the NHS? .....and to whom should I address that question I wonder?.....

 

I know I too will be made worse by the pressure to conform to what is expected of me despite being ill.....I personally think they just want us all to drop dead from stress so they dont even have to worry about pensions........

[antone]

Despite the fact that more than a month has passed, I'd still be tempted to try a simple call to the Benefit Centre and ask for a copy of the report (form ESA85). I used to request them from ATOS all the time for claimants who asked me to, and I never once bothered to check how long it had been since the medical exam. To be honest, I'm not even sure I was supposed to check. So it's worth a try before going to the hassle of a SAR.

[Dick Emery]

I have already sent the letters so it's a bit too late really. Well I could still request ESA85 just in case perhaps? Anyhow I can only wait and see what they say. I am hoping this does not cause more trouble than if I had not written to them in the first place though. One thing I was wondering is if it could prompt them into making me attend a medical and the possibility of getting 0 points!

[down'n'out]

One thing I was wondering is if it could prompt them into making me attend a medical and the possibility of getting 0 points!

 

Personally, I would find that highly doubtful. Sending in letters and/or SAR will not then force a new WCA, if it did, then ATOS would have to double their staff. It would also show doubt to their original decision (we know ourselves there is doubt, but for them to show that would be a problem for them). IMHO of course.

 

You should already have a date for review, or at least a date on your original letter than confirmed you being on WRAG, that shows the dates from-to(the period) of payment of the ESA WRAG. (it should be on the last page of the letter where it shows the amount being paid).

[RaeUK]

Nothing to add I'm afraid. But just wanted to say thank-you to all who have posted here, I've learnt quite a bit. I know that may not sound helpfull to the OP, but by discussing his problems and asking questions here, it is so useful to many of us just reading ...

[antone]

I have already sent the letters so it's a bit too late really. Well I could still request ESA85 just in case perhaps? Anyhow I can only wait and see what they say. I am hoping this does not cause more trouble than if I had not written to them in the first place though. One thing I was wondering is if it could prompt them into making me attend a medical and the possibility of getting 0 points!

 

Sure, make a phone call anyway, even though you've already sent the letters. It can't hurt - as I said, I wouldn't have questioned your request, I'd just have faxed the relevant form to ATOS and then sent you the ESA85 when I received it. I wouldn't have any way of knowing (and wouldn't care even if I did) that you'd sent a SAR. The worst that can happen is they say "Sorry, no, ain't doing that", in which case you've lost nothing.

 

And no, making a SAR or other request for information that you're entitled to will not accelerate the WCA/medical process. Although it might seem, at times, that the DWP is intentionally manipulating things to avoid paying you, I can assure you that this really isn't the case. The staff simply don't have the time to engage in vendettas like this even if they had the inclination, and I assure you most do not have the inclination.

 

Actually, the problem isn't that the staff pay too much attention to individual claims, it's that time and targets mean they pay too little attention to each claim.

[Dick Emery]

Just got back from my second WP session. I arrived too early (it was meant to be 2:00PM but I assumed it was the same as the first at 09:30AM). Luckily someone saw me. I explained to him that the stress and anxiety were causing my health to deteriorate and showed him my GP's sick note as proof. I explained at length that I was not trying to wriggle my way out of work related activities and certainly wanted to avoid any sanctions etc. I made sure I tempered the presentation of my letter explaining my problem as well as the more official looking withdrawel of consent form. He had a word with his supervisor and said everything was OK and had put into writing my concerns on the system which he read back to me. It seemed innocent enough but you can never tell. Anyhow he made a new appointment for the 28th of June and my action plan consists of some easy to follow tasks relating to my health, seeing a JCP advisor (mine is off until next week so can't see her yet), read some literature and see about maybe joining some community scheme to get over my social phobia. These are pretty lightweight and not actually work related at present. He said I need to confirm with my JCP advisor if the WP is mandatory for me and if not to update it on the WP providers system. I have a feeling it is mandatory regardless. I doubt the JCP advisor will be able to change it but it's worth a shot so at least my concerns are registered.

 

It was very stressfull and continues to be. My therapist who I was due to see yesterday cancelled at the last moment so I had nobody to lean on for advice on how to handle this situation. I had to take a Diazipam this morning just to get the nerve up to go in!

 

The previous action plan seemed to be ignored (provide CV, personal docs etc) and I was not asked about them. Whether they will register those as inaction and try to raise a doubt I do not know. They may even try to raise a doubt over what followed this morning. I won't know until DWP hit me with one I guess. The WP advisor seemed nice and genuine but I have met people like that before who then turn around and stab you in the back!

 

Anyhow. For the moment the WP is mandatory and on a monthly basis. That is all I know.

[down'n'out]

It sounds like it went OK. As they only want to see you next in 4 weeks, that is not too bad. I do not see why they would raise doubt, not when you have explained and they appear to of accepted.

When you go to see your JCP advisor, take the [sick]note with you, and explain to them how the WP is affecting your health, and that those at the WP have told you to see if the WP is mandatory. (remember to state, "that the WP have told you to ask if it is mandatory".).

 

Take care,

 

Regards,

[Dick Emery]

Update:

 

I spoke to my JCP adviser today. She told me I am *DEFINITELY* voluntary only for the Work Programme and that it is on my action plan which she said she will send me a copy of. The action plan is also meant to be requested by the Work Programme provider *BEFORE* I was to be pulled in for interview. On the action plan it states it is voluntary and should have been a one off interview to begin with and that I would have to sign something giving consent to be on the Work Programme which they then have to send back to the JCP to confirm it! I may have been forced into signing something like that I do not know now as my mind is/was in such a muddle. But regardless The WP provider told me a bunch of lies! The JCP adviser said I would need to tell the WP provider to call the JCP adviser directly and get it verified that I am voluntary. If they refuse to aknowledge me as voluntary I must raise a complaint against them. The problem I have with this is that you raise the complaint *WITH* the provider. This is disingenuous as it means they can ignore it and not make contact with the DWP and the government can effectively ignore it. I read about the independent case examiner that you have to wait 8 weeks if you do not hear back from the provider after complaining to them. In the meantime are they going to continue forcing me to attend under threat of raising a doubt? I think the entire system stinks as the private companies on the Work Programme are not really answerable to anyone!

 

Also if you are not already aware.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jun/05/call-inquiry-jobseekers-jubilee-stewards?newsfeed=true

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jun/06/unpaid-jubilee-stewards-prescott-exploitation

[down'n'out]

Hello,

 

I am curious as to why the JCP advisor sent you to the Work Provider in the first place.

Is she now stating that the visit to the Work Provider was voluntary, or that the first visit was mandated with a voluntary option to partake?

Something does not sound right.

Where you not given a copy of your "action plan" from your JCP advisor (at your WFI) when you where informed of the visit to Work Provider? As far as I know, they are required to give you that.

 

The JCP adviser said I would need to tell the WP provider to call the JCP adviser directly and get it verified that I am voluntary.

From your earlier post, the Work Provider does not know if you are voluntary or mandated to them. I would phone the Work Provider and tell them there as been a mix up, and that you where not informed of the Work Programme being voluntary, and as you have not volunteered (and currently too ill to partake), they should cancel any/all mandated activity and cancel any/all future booked meetings. Also tell them to contact your JCP advisor, as she can confirm the Work Programme is currently voluntary for you.

 

Regards,

[Dick Emery]

Dupe ignore.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Dick Emery

[Dick Emery]

Hello,

 

I am curious as to why the JCP advisor sent you to the Work Provider in the first place.

Is she now stating that the visit to the Work Provider was voluntary, or that the first visit was mandated with a voluntary option to partake?

 

She stated that the first meeting was mandatory with a voluntary option as you stated.

 

Something does not sound right.

You're telling me.

 

Where you not given a copy of your "action plan" from your JCP advisor (at your WFI) when you where informed of the visit to Work Provider? As far as I know, they are required to give you that.

No. I was given a letter WP06 'The Work Programme. Start notification letter (ESA) which states that 'From today you must take part in the WP' Which also states that 'If I fail to do any work-related activity that the WP provider or one of their partners tell you to do without good reason, your ESA could be reduced'

 

Then another peice of paper with info about the WP on which is highlighted by the JCP adviser in highlighter pen over various sections. The one that stands out most is 'What we expect from you as a volunteer' which then goes on with a list of expectations from the WP provider.

 

The JCP adviser said I was voluntary because I went from IB to ESA and there was some 6 month time limit on it or something. I did not quite get the jest of it to be honest but I did intervene to say that I was on ESA WRAG not support. She still assured me it was voluntary.

 

From your earlier post, the Work Provider does not know if you are voluntary or mandated to them. I would phone the Work Provider and tell them there as been a mix up, and that you where not informed of the Work Programme being voluntary, and as you have not volunteered (and currently too ill to partake), they should cancel any/all mandated activity and cancel any/all future booked meetings. Also tell them to contact your JCP advisor, as she can confirm the WP is currently voluntary for you.

 

Regards,

This entire process is a mess. I really do not believe that the right hand knows what the left hand is doing. I am not even sure the JCP knows what is correct anymore. If I phone them (The WP provider) and tell them this I don't know if I have a leg to stand on. Really I need the JCP to contact the WP provider but they will not do that even though I asked them to. As I said before it's like the system is delibaretly setup to avoid the JCP and DWP from having any comebacks and forcing people into the WP with no way for the claiment to have any redress. One sentence can sum it all up.

 

The system is rigged against the claimant!

[Dick Emery]

From your earlier post, the Work Provider does not know if you are voluntary or mandated to them.

 

Sorry I forgot to say the WP provider said I am 'mandatory' on their system which is why they asked me to contact the JCP and ask them to update the WP provider if I am indeed down as voluntary. But the JCP say they have no contact with the WP provider and cannot do this (Catch 22). But as I stated the JCP adviser did say the WP provider should have requested an action plan which would have stated I was voluntary on it. I cannot believe what anyone says anymore though.

[Dick Emery]

One more thing. My JCP adviser is off on leave again until the 27th. The next WP meeting is on the 28th. None of the other JCP advisers will talk to me referring me back to this one adviser. She said that someone else will be able to discuss this with me whilst she is off though. I really don't believe they give a damn and are just passing the buck back and forth avoiding actually getting involved.

[down'n'out]

Hello,

 

It sounds like you are being treated as if you have "opted in"(volunteered) to WP.

You cannot be mandated to volunteer (for WP), but once you have volunteered you can be mandated (by WP).

 

When you get your "Action Plan", check the details. Once you know what is stated on the action plan, we will know which direction to take. (it is sounding like it needs sorting out via JCP)

 

 

 

Regards,

[Dick Emery]

Got my action plan and on it it says 'WP: INFO SESSION- VOLUNTARY'

 

I never volunteered for anything and thought I HAD to go to this info session and nothing else. I never agreed to be in the work programme at any point.

 

EDIT: I've just phoned the provider and explained to them about this. I have asked them to call the JC on the number I was given and they said they will call me back later to let me know the outcome. What's the betting they don't or call back and tell me some cock and bull story about it being mandatory? If they do I will ask if they got the name of the adviser they spoke to and call the JC to confirm they did actually call them.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Dick Emery

[Dick Emery]

Well as I thought they did not phone me back. I called again today and they said they was having trouble getting hold of my JCP adviser and would try again today and would DEFINITELY get back to me today. I have the feeling they are going to give me the runaround like this until my next appointment with them. I may try and get the JCP to call them instead.

 

I really don't know what else to do from this juncture onwards. My health has really deteriorated and I am now battling with a case of oral thrush due to the additional stress I have been put under (at least I think it's that. I obviously keep having thoughts of oral cancer going through my mind continuously which is not helping even with the doc saying it's most likely not). I can't sleep properly. I am always stressed and tired. I feel nausea most of the time and have little appetite. I have pains in various places that could be real or imaginary I don't know. I see my therapist again tomorrow but I have only been to a couple of sessions (3 with the initial interview) thus far so it's too soon to say if it is helping.

 

It's doing me in!

 

I know I am working myself up about something that I really should not be stressing so much about.

[Dick Emery]

Received a call from the Work Programme caseworker. He left a message on my answerphone confirming what the JCP adviser said. That I am indeed voluntary. He asked me to call him back to find out where we go from here. From here? What does he mean? I think we go our seperate ways from here don't we??? I shall keep the message as evidence. But what should I say to him on the phone?

[down'n'out]

Did you put in the letter to the Work Provider about the problems having to attend is causing you? I would just refer to that, but state again that the Work Programme is causing far more harm than good due to current health issues, and that any further attendance (to work programme) should be canceled until you feel able to attend.

[Dick Emery]

Did you put in the letter to the Work Provider about the problems having to attend is causing you? I would just refer to that' date=' but state again that the Work Programme is causing far more harm than good due to current health issues, and that any further attendance (to work programme) should be canceled until you feel able to attend.[/quote']

 

Yes I did. But I don't see why I should have to cancel as effectively I should not have had to attend in the first place. But I understand what you are saying. The way he worded that message sounds like he was probably instructed by his line manager to say it that way. It seems very crafty in the way it is worded. The message should just have been 'We have noted you are voluntary and are not required to attend. However if you need anymore help please contact us'. The line 'Call me back so we can see where we go from here' seems very fishy. My immediate response would be to call them back and ask that as I am voluntary and it is affecting my health adversely as noted in my letter to them then all future sessions should be canceled and for them to cease contact with me other than perhaps sending me a letter confirming that I am 'not required' to attend and will not be sanctioned for not attending.

[down'n'out]

It is probably a case of them wanting to try and talk you into still attending, and if you where to agree, you would then be a volunteer and be mandated.

Rather than phoning them, you could always send in a letter. It would then save you having to talk with them and having to deal with any (possible) hassle they try and give you.

 

If the JCP have not mandated you (or you have not volunteered) to participate in the work programme, then the work provider cannot get you sanctioned.

[Dick Emery]

It is probably a case of them wanting to try and talk you into still attending, and if you where to agree, you would then be a volunteer and be mandated.

Rather than phoning them, you could always send in a letter. It would then save you having to talk with them and having to deal with any (possible) hassle they try and give you.

 

If the JCP have not mandated you (or you have not volunteered) to participate in the work programme, then the work provider cannot get you sanctioned.

 

Good idea.

 

However there seems to be a thin line in the use of the term voluntary. One question that goes through my head is this. Did the JCP adviser 'volunteer' me to attend the Work Programme? I certainly did not volunteer myself in the sense that the adviser said to me 'Would you be interested in attending the work programme? Just for the info session of course'. It was more a case of telling me about the work programme and saying I only 'have to attend' the info session. Which turned out to be more like induction than an 'info session'. I thought I was mandated to attend the info session in that respect and had no choice in attending. It certainly read that way in the work programme letter I was given by the JCP adviser.

 

BTW do you think it would be a good idea to send a copy of the letter to the DWP as well so they know I did indeed contact the work provider and so know the details or not?

[down'n'out]

If the JCP advisor as placed you as "opt in"(volunteered) without your consent, I would say to put in a complaint against your advisor.

 

You need to see your JCP advisor and get confirmation. If your advisor is still "unavailable" then ask to see a manager, and that you also want written details of the JCP complaints procedure.