Bailiffs coming to take goods for council tax tommorow advice please

[Chrisgy12]

I was made redundant last January,

went self employed and havnt been earning great money,

I went into arrears on my council tax and they got the bailiffs in.

In hindsight I'd of probably been entitled to some sort of benefit.

 

The bailiffs came and did a walking possesion order,

which was signed by my partner,

they then wanted £170 every 2 weeks which is something I couldn't pay.

 

I made one payment and missed the next.

They did ask for an expenditure form which I sent back with my offer of payment and they declined and asked for proof of income.

I didn't send the proof of income because in the letter it said they couldn't take a lower payment due to company guidelines.

 

Bailiff came round this morning and said I have to pay £1300 within 2

4 hours otherwise he takes my tv and my car.

I really dont have that money and I don't want to loose my car or tv.

I have some other things like gym equipment and laptop they could take and I wish I put those down instead.

 

Is there anything at all I could do to delay this or change the items on the order.

What happens if I go down the contempt of court route by hiding my tv and car?

At least I'd have chance to explain to the court my reasons for not paying

- the fact that I've been trying to run a startup business and not had much money but didn't want to go down the benefits route.

I should probably speak to the bailiff but it's 10 past midnight and I can't sleep just want some advice in the meantime if anyone else is on here now.

Thanks for any replies

[dx100uk]

is the car yours in your name too not on tick?

 

you don't ever HAVE to let a bailiff in

even now.

 

you REALLY need to look at WHAT you are paying on other bills

 

loans/cards/catalogues/mobiles phones etc etc

should ONLY be getting £1PCM at BEST

 

if you can pay

pay the council direct via internet banking or their automated phone line

 

have you asked the council the total of all LO's they have

in case [he says in jest]

the bailff has added unlawful fees.

how many times have they ACTUALLY been around?

 

dx

[dx100uk]

oh and DONT speak to the bailliff either

 

EVERYTHING in WRITING ONLY

 

there is no fixed right of entry with CTAX debts

no matter WHAT they say

 

name the bailiff co too please

 

dx

[RaeUK]

So many questions..!

First and foremost a bailiff will only ever take goods as a complete last resort. He much prefers to threaten to do so and make you worry and sweat and more likely to beg, steal or borrow money to give him. he's a leech. He won't be turning up tomorrow to take goods. if he turns up tomorrow it's to threaten to take goods.

What is your current situation? Are you working? On benefits? What is your household like? Well? Unwell? What was actually put on the walking possession notice? What is your car worth? Is it really yours or on HP? The sale of your goods at auction has to raise a substantial part of the debt plus bailiff fees plus auction fees. Will the goods levied do so?

Long way to go yet. Plenty of reasons to sleep well...

Rae.

[Chrisgy12]

is the car yours in your name too not on tick?

 

you don't ever HAVE to let a bailiff in

even now.

 

you REALLY need to look at WHAT you are paying on other bills

 

loans/cards/catalogues/mobiles phones etc etc

should ONLY be getting £1PCM at BEST

 

if you can pay

pay the council direct via internet banking or their automated phone line

 

have you asked the council the total of all LO's they have

in case [he says in jest]

the bailff has added unlawful fees.

how many times have they ACTUALLY been around?

 

dx

 

Are you sure about not having to let the bailiff in now he's got an agreement? Every website I've found says the items on that walking agreement are owned by the court and the bailiff can force entry to get them.

 

I havn't got any work on at the minute, so can't pay anything, but as soon as any money comes in I know the most of it has to go to them.

 

As far as I know they've been round twice once for the walking possesion and today to give me 24 hours.

 

Havnt contacted the council but I hoped I could contact them tommorow and see if they can help.

By the way it's rossendales and north east Lincolnshire council

[Chrisgy12]

So many questions..!

First and foremost a bailiff will only ever take goods as a complete last resort. He much prefers to threaten to do so and make you worry and sweat and more likely to beg, steal or borrow money to give him. he's a leech. He won't be turning up tomorrow to take goods. if he turns up tomorrow it's to threaten to take goods.

What is your current situation? Are you working? On benefits? What is your household like? Well? Unwell? What was actually put on the walking possession notice? What is your car worth? Is it really yours or on HP? The sale of your goods at auction has to raise a substantial part of the debt plus bailiff fees plus auction fees. Will the goods levied do so?

Long way to go yet. Plenty of reasons to sleep well...

Rae.

 

Thanks for that I hope you're right.

Funnily enough he used the same term as you by saying to me 'your gonna have to beg steal or borrow to get the money for tommorow otherwise the tv and car go tommorow'

 

I'm classed as self employed (plumber) but the phone just isn't ringing so no money coming to me at all, havnt paid rent either (1 months arrears)

 

The walking possesion notice has my car and tv on there, I paid £600 for the tv and £900 for the car but obviously they will sell for a lot less at auction. Car is in my name

Edited January 5, 2012 by Chrisgy12

[dx100uk]

Are you sure about not having to let the bailiff in now he's got an agreement? Every website I've found says the items on that walking agreement are owned by the court and the bailiff can force entry to get them. not on CTAX!! read the file below.

 

I havn't got any work on at the minute, so can't pay anything, but as soon as any money comes in I know the most of it has to go to them.

 

As far as I know they've been round twice once for the walking possesion and today to give me 24 hours. - they cant WIP on the first visit!

 

Havnt contacted the council but I hoped I could contact them tommorow and see if they can help.

By the way it's rossendales and north east Lincolnshire council

 

ah rossers, vey well known for their sceptical unlawful fees and threatening tactics.

 

here the file on forced entry regarding ctax:

 

Question can he break into my house while im out if no one is in, he has never been in my house before ---End Quote---

To be able to force entry to your home he needs the following:

1 - he must have gained previous peaceful entry and made a valid levy on goods.

2 - next time he calls you must have denied him entry following a default on a payment due.

3 - he must get the approval of the Council to apply for a forced entry, and they MUST agree FIRST

4 - he must apply to the Magistrates Court for an Order allowing him to force entry - very rarely given

5 - he must write to you giving you a date and time of when he is coming

6 - if you are then not in he may make a forced entry

thus 99.9% of the time - So you are a long, long way from this happening - not that it will, and as you have paid up to date minus his fees then no application to force entry will succeed.

Any hassles with the Bailiff do no disappear overnight and it does take a long time to resolve. As said previously the Council cannot wash their hands of this and if they insist they can do nothing then they leave themselves wide open. As you no longer reside within the same authority then you must complain at the highest level ie the CEO. It would do no harm to also inform the Leader of the Council and his opposite number of what is going on also. As for the Bailiff themselves you must also challenge the fees they are trying to claim. As you paid after the levy was made you may indeed be liable for some fees but definitely not what they are claiming.

PT

You need to fill out forms 6.4 (set aside form) and 6.5 (witness statement - your own).

You also can say that you believe that they are being used as a debt collection tool

Bit more here with regard to service...

The creditor is under obligation to take reasonable steps to bring the demand to the debtor’s attention and if, practicable, personal service should take place. Where this is not possible, the creditor is allowed to serve the demand either via post or through a letterbox, but it is expected that following steps have taken place first:

* One personal visit to each of the debtor’s known residencies and places of business

* If it is not possible to serve the Statutory Demand during the visit(s), a letter should be sent to the debtor making her/him aware of the visit(s) have taken place and purpose of the visit(s). The letter should also state that another visit will be made for the same purpose and specify the date, time and place. At least two business days’ notice must be given. The letter should also state that if the time and place are inconvenient, the debtor should name a reasonable alternative. The letter can also state that if the debtor fails to keep the appointment, the demand will be posted/inserted through a letterbox and, if a bankruptcy petition is presented, the court will be requested to accept this as a service of demand. Copies of the letter should be sent to all known addresses of the debtor.

If the creditor presents a bankruptcy petition to the court, an affidavit has to be sworn giving details of service of the Statutory Demand. If a demand was not served personally and no written acknowledgement of service has been received from the debtor, the creditor must set out the steps it has taken to ensure the demand has been served on the debtor. If the court is not satisfied that the creditor has carried out their obligations, it can refuse to issue a petition.

 

You may also make use of this

Hammonds (a firm) v Pro-Fit USA Ltd [2007] EWHC 1998 (Ch)

In this case, Mr Justice Warren confirmed that it was usual for an indemnity award to be made:-

27 So far as disputed debts are concerned, the practice of the court is not to allow the insolvency regime to be used as a method of debt collection (http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors.html)

[seanamarts]

By what you have stated what the bailiff levied on, wouldnt cover,

1) the accrued debt.

2) his charges and fee's.

3)auction costs and storage.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/613/regulation/45/made

 

Get in touch with the council asap, and let them know what is going on with your circumstances at the moment, speak to some one in the benefits and revenue department, preferably the manager.

[brassnecked]

Some great advice here, follow the steps suggested, and you should be OK, The levy could be challenges as the goods will only cover a fraction of what is owed in toto, plus the fees for removal and auction would add substantially to the debt, negating any cvalue from the sale. NELC, same council outlawa is having a dispute with, so you are in good company.

[Chrisgy12]

Ok so far I've just rang the NELC, explained they would be taking goods that don't add up to the total amount, she said nothing they can do to take it back from rossendales and to go and speak to citizens advice.

 

I'll probably now make an appointment with citizens advice and go from there.

 

I let the bailiff in yesterday, he said £80 an hour for the time he's here like he wasn't going to leave until I got the money. So if he comes back he can't cause a scene outside breaking in or calling the police if I don't let him in?

[wonkeydonkey]

Going back to the begining of your post.....are you saying the bailiff made his levy on the first visit?

 

First and most important thing to do is contact the Council and with pen at the ready get answers to the following:

 

1 - how many Liability Orders they have against you

2 - the dates they were obtained

3 - the addresses they were for

4 - the period of time each covers

5 - how much each one was for

6 - how much is still outstanding

7 - the dates they were passed on for enforcement

 

This will then give a guide to exactly how much of £1300 demanded is the actual debt and how much are his ficticious fees.

Once you have this, you will need to write to Rossendales for breakdown of their charges, template for that is on the forum.

To cover a debt of £1.300 the levy should have been made on goods to the value of approx £13,000 to offset their auction value, therefore the levy carried out by the bailiff is invalid and it can be argued it was only made to gain advantage to the bailiff to further his fees.

 

Meanwhile, carefully work out what is a realistic and affordable amount for you to pay, make sure you do not overstretch your budget for survival, also remember the new CT year starts in April,(apply now for CT relief I think you will find you qualify) then start to make regular weekly payment direct to the Council by way of their online payment system, if the most you can afford is £5 pw then that is what you pay. Do this on the same day every week and you can then show you are intending to pay and are not a 'won't pay' the Council will have great difficulty trying to take the matter through the Courts.

 

 

You will recall from the recent "exposure" tv programme how horrified Mrs Jones claimed she was to hear of the antics of her "rougue bailiff" Mr Boult, he was also suggesting people should beg borrow or steal money in order to pay him......perhaps she may be interested to hear there are others among her "highly trained team" that follow the same practices........ are those who are still quietly keeping a watchful eye to Rossendales ready for the next chapter making note?

 

WD

[dx100uk]

£80 an hour what CRAP!!!

 

dx

[dx100uk]

. So if he comes back he can't cause a scene outside breaking in or calling the police if I don't let him in?

 

 

NO!!

 

dx

[Chrisgy12]

NO!!

 

dx

 

Ok. I know I keep repeating that question but its because the bailiff either doesn't know the law or is a very good lier. He told me he's the top bailiff there is and he's employed for his brains so maybe its just because he's a good lier.

Going to see citizens advice at 1pm, I'll tell them about the goods not coming to the value needed etc. but what route is this likely to go down?

Do you think there's any chance of getting this back to a payment arrangement stage?

[dx100uk]

the simple answer is to do as in post 11

 

once you have that info

let us know

and we'll help from there

 

you do not have to converse with the bailiiff AT ALL.

 

if he comes talk out thewindow

or just ignore him

ifyou do converse

record it or video it on a phone or something

 

99% of what he has done or said is rubbish and UNTRUE to get you

to pay him extortionate fees.

then fwd the rest to the council

 

PAY THE COUNCIL DIRECT NEVER EVER THE BAILIFF

 

dx

[Chrisgy12]

1 - how many Liability Orders they have against you

2 - the dates they were obtained

3 - the addresses they were for

4 - the period of time each covers

5 - how much each one was for

6 - how much is still outstanding

7 - the dates they were passed on for enforcement

WD

 

1. 1 order

2. Summoned 11/5/11 LO obtained approx 2 weeks later

3. My current address

4. I have to write in for that info?

5. She said £70 charges but didn't give me a starting balance

6. £1137.80

7. 5/7/11

[wonkeydonkey]

Ok. I know I keep repeating that question but its because the bailiff either doesn't know the law or is a very good lier. He told me he's the top bailiff there is and he's employed for his brains so maybe its just because he's a good lier. Ask for proof of his seniority and I think you will find he isn't even a good liar!!

Going to see citizens advice at 1pm, I'll tell them about the goods not coming to the value needed etc. but what route is this likely to go down? CAB have their uses but are restricted as to what they know about bailiff law, chances are they will try to contact Rossendales and make payment arrangements but they are powerless to insist, which is why forums such as cag are highly respected for offering good solid advice, most of which has come the university of life!!

Do you think there's any chance of getting this back to a payment arrangement stage?

Yes... you have it within your own power to arrange repayment..the ideal is to take the action of paying what you can afford on a regular basis direct to the Council...regardless of what they try to tell you they are fully responsible for their appointed agents (bailiffs) by law but, they like to think they are above the law.

Stop ringing the Council and start writing ....you need to show a paper trail to your complaints, start with a letter to the head of Revevues and when that gets ignored the next letter goes to the Chief Executive Officer and a copy to your MP, you also have the right to involve your local councillor, but one step at a time and you should start with acting on post #11 then come back and caggers will help you from there.

WD

 

 

 

[wonkeydonkey]

1. 1 order

2. Summoned 11/5/11 LO obtained approx 2 weeks later

3. My current address

4. I have to write in for that info? [EDIT] they have it on record and is instantly available to them, thanks to technology

5. She said £70 charges but didn't give me a starting balance as 4

6. £1137.80

7. 5/7/11

when did the bailiff first visit?

Please take note...some Councils outsource their backroom staff and it is always a possibility that when speaking with the Council you are not infact speaking with the authority itself but merely the dogs body that oversees the dog [EDIT] bailiffs.

 

 

Edited January 5, 2012 by seanamarts
removed naughty words :)

[outlawla]

Hi Chrisgy12

 

First thing, don't believe a word any staff member says at North East Lincolnshire council. Follow the advice given in the posts and when you're told you can't pay the council direct just remember they are lying.

 

1. 1 order

2. Summoned 11/5/11 LO obtained approx 2 weeks later

3. My current address

4. I have to write in for that info?

5. She said £70 charges but didn't give me a starting balance This will be the SINGLE Summons penalty fee...formerly made up of TWO fees, charged separately at different stages of the enforcement process. Depending on how far you want to take this with the council I can supply information as to why this is unlawful.

6. £1137.80 This should attract a levy fee of £56.45 according to the Council Tax Regulations schedule of charges.

7. 5/7/11

 

Post more of the fees as you get to know about them. I'm sure there will be some they're keeping from you.

 

I notice the authority has advised you to contact the CAB. I hope you have some success but I suspect the council have said this because the CAB is in the pocket of the council.

 

Oh! When they state their appointed bailiffs are reputable and governed by the National Standards for Enforcement Agent's Code of practice, ask them to pull the other one.

[seanamarts]

He told me he's the top bailiff there is and he's employed for his brains so maybe its just because he's a good lier.

who is he kidding, Talk about ego

 

[Chrisgy12]

I'm not sure when the first visit was, I'll start writing to the council but I had hoped I would get it sorted today because I can imagine the big white van turning up and causing a scene. He said if I don't let him in he will call the police as the items on the walking possesion are now owned by the courts, and me and my partner will both get 90 days in prison. That's a scary thought considering we have a 2 year old child

 

On another note about this walking possesion being invalid, the 'top bailiff' himselfs exact words were '**cking hell you won't get **ck all for it' so he knows they won't get £1300. They havnt looked round my car, or took mileage etc. to value the car

[seanamarts]

Im afraid these things take a little time. He cannot involve the police unless there is a breach of the peace. If you ignore him when he does come round there is nothing he can do.

As for you going to prison for 90 days, that is almost laughable, he does not have the authority to make that decision. The courts decide whether you go to prison or not, not the bailiff, and before it gets to that stage he would have to hand the debt back to the council for them to take further action, they have to prove that you are not willing to pay not that you cannot afford to pay.

If you start paying something on line via the councils website then this is proof that you are willing to pay off the debt.

 

Bailiffs are notorious liars and bullies. Many council will turn a blind eye to what they get up to so that the debt is paid.

 

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.dca.gov.uk/enforcement/agents02.htm#part3

 

Have a read through this, make sure you quote this to the council in your complaint to them, I would also place a formal complaint to Julie Green Jones, CEO of Rossendales

[hallowitch]

Have you checked to confirm this so called top bailiff is certificated http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?210956-On-line-search-to-check-if-a-Bailiff-is-Certificated.....

 

http://certificatedbailiffs.justice.gov.uk/CertificatedBailiffs/

 

when a bailiff wants re-entry to a property to remove goods previously levied he must send you a letter giving you the time and date of entery (and i don't mean sticking a note through your door saying we will be bringing a van to remove your goods sometime tomorrow)

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?203289

 

p5 Forcing re-entry

The law upon the rights of bailiffs to force re-entry to premises in order to remove

goods previously seized has recently been clarified. In Khazanchi v Faircharm

Investments; McLeod v Butterwick [1998] 2 All ER 901 the Court of Appeal held that

bailiffs may only force re-entry where they are being deliberately excluded from

premises. It will thus be necessary in most cases for the bailiff to notify the debtor in

advance of the date and time of the visit in order to remove. If the debtor is then

absent from home, or refuses entry, force may be employed.

 

The bailiff has no power to sent you to jail for non payment of council tax

 

the local authority can apply for committal for wilfully refusing to pay council tax in your case there is no wilful refusal therefore its not going to happen

 

I really do hope that you can record all conversations with this bailiff as he his hitting well above his weight

[wonkeydonkey]

As you can see there is little to suggest this bailiff was indeed employed for his "brains"......

.....sadly I must agree with Hallow in that nothing 'quick' ever happens with these cases,

you will have to prepare yourself to a seige like mentality and place your trust in what caggers tell you...

. but please do not forget to start making those regular payments to the Council while the behind the scenes work carries on.

 

If your new found friend does turn up with van or on his push bike there is no law that says you have to either speak or deal with him, just ignore him.

I think DX has already posted what lengths the bailif and Council will have to go to before anyone can break in to your house to "remove goods"

and if those payments are made on the same day at the same rate or more every week, they are thwarted to getting any such order from the Court.

 

WD

[brassnecked]

All good advice thus far, even if the "Top" (not) bailiff arrives with a fleet of vans, you don't have to let him in. this one seems to be a liar just like the one exposed on TV. As DX as advised film him with a mobile even when he comes around shouting the odds. talk from an upstairs window and don't open the door.

 

Addendum, You MUST ASAP pay in an amount you can afford using their online system, making sure you use the correct reference number NELC seem unable to allocate funds to accounts correctly

Edited January 5, 2012 by brassnecked