HA wants to charge for two places during move

[Donny909]

Hi would like some advice or confirmation on an issue. We recently moved via our housing assosiation for a couple of reasons. As we are on housing benefit they asked us to pay the first week ourselfs untill the housing benefit is sorted which was not to much hassle. Except now we are asking for that deposit back as the housing benefit is sorted and could do with that money for Xmas they have decided they want and we are due to pay about half a weeks rent for the previous property.

 

This has happened because we signed for and received the keys for the new place on a Friday with the intention of moving over the weekend and was expected to hand the keys back for the previous place on the Monday for which when the tenency on the new place started and assumingly the old 1 finished.

 

But the housing then said on the Friday after we signed for the keys that we would now have to wait untill the Monday to start moving as the new house still had the alarm installed and they were not getting it removed untill the Monday (when the tenency on new house started) and we were not alowed to start moving or try to access the new place untill then as if we activate the alarm there would be a charge to have it switched offonce activated.

 

The result is it took 2 days to fully move and remove and clean the old house (which we were told we had to do or we would be charged for removal of left items and cleaning). But because the keys for the old place were handed back 2 days later than orignaly requested assuming we were moving over the weekend they have refused to give the full first weeks deposit back saying we have to pay half a weeks rent due on the old place because the keys were handed back a couple of days late!.

 

Anyone advice on if we are liable or not seeing as we were refused access to move over the weekend as originally planed?.

[mariner51]

Moves are always difficult and often involve an overlap for convenience.

 

HA was entitled to refuse access until 1st day of T (Mon). If start date was prev Fri they would be in Breach, your move over weekend would mean you had occupation of 2 properties for 2-3 days with rent due on each IMO.

 

If by deposit, you mean the 1 week rent you paid HA whilst HB was transferred, then HA is not allowed to keep rent overpaid for same property/period if HB was backdated for new property from start of T. You paid 1 week rent for new place and owe half week for old place. If HB was continuous nthen HA owes you the difference. That's the accountant's view. Personally I would point out to HA that they were aware of your pmoving plans and gave you the keys for this to be achievable. Their failure to disable the alarm on the Fri prevented this and led to the overstay and you did return old place in a clean, acceptable condition(?).

[Donny909]

The tenency was always to start on the Monday and they stated this near 2 weeks before the start of the tenency for the new place. Yet at that point we were aware that work was actually still getting done on the new place and in fact there was still wet plaster,paint and unpainted\ minor cosmetic work that was not completed before we moved in. The only reason that we could not access the new house to move over the first weekend was because it was still alarmed and nothing do do with tenency start date as we were originally due to get the keys on the Thursday but something came up. They did say they would have had no problem moving over the weekend but for reasons they did not know to explain the alarm was still installed when it should have been removed earlyer in the week when any work was completed.

 

Added to that it was even the housing who arranged the removal lorry and the date for the main removal.

 

The weeks deposit paid at the point of signing for the keys was just to cover the period it would take to transfer the housing benefit to the new place. This has now been sorted and HB has been paid and backdated to cover the first week we were asked to pay while HB gets transfered. So yes there is now a rent over payment.

 

But I can't for a single minute believe now council\HA does not allow an overlapping period to move without being liable for rent on both places. More so in that the time it took to get the keys back was to clean and remove left items in the old place that would need doing a d said so by the HA before we hand the keys for the old place back.

[Donny909]

To add to my last post and after speaking to a family member a couple of more points have come to mind. First off the HA agreed 2 days ago to pay the full first weeks deposit back in full and either a cheque or Bank payment would be sorted then (2 days ago) for which they have so far not done. Also we have yet and not received any formal request or details reguarding this half a weeks rent that's apparently due on the previous propery due to not handing the keys back (because we had to clear and clean the place of everything) untill 2 days after the tenency for the new place started.

 

Family member suggests what they are doing is keeping hold of a rent overpayment untill we agree to pay back rent due on a previous place and seperate tenency that they have not formally or officialy requested or detailed and borders on illigal to withold a rent overpayment on 1 tenency untill we agree part of that can be used to pay an apparent rent due on another tenency that they have yet to even request formally.

 

Family member suggests they should pay back the weeks deposit while the HB got transfered right away without delay and then ask the housing to detail there request as a seperate issue.

 

Anyone knows if this is correct as HA will be closed from tomorrow to the new year and we really want\need this sorting so the money can be payed or sent before there near 2 week shut down.

[danielr]

The tenency was always to start on the Monday

you weren't paying rent until Monday, the house wasn't yours until the Monday.

 

But I can't for a single minute believe now council\HA does not allow an overlapping period to move without being liable for rent on both places.

I agree, but how long do you think the over lap should last? 1 day, 2 days, a week 2 weeks.

perhaps they expect you to have kept the place so clean that you could move out without the need for a clean and clear? I don't know their reasoning, but... the problem is, they clearly think that you should be able to do the whole move and clean in a day. you know that's not possible, but... trying to argue that you should be provided with two paid for houses at the same time... I think is a lost cause.

as far as I know housing benefit can only be paid to you for your residence. you can't have two residences at once. and housing benefit wouldn't allow to have a primary and secondary residence...

 

What I'd suggest that you do is:

 

Forget about the move in dates, as much as it inconvenienced you, the fact that you were allowed to get the keys two days early was for your convenience of not having to go to their office on the Monday, not so you would have the convenience of a free weekend.

trying to make a fuss over it is just going cause you stress, not least because all the council will do is point to the bit of paper saying that your moving date it the Monday, and say it's there, written in black and white.

 

The rent payment on the first house, (old house) if you kept the keys for an extra half a week, you should pay for having use of the property for that half a week, housing benefit just won't cover it, because they only pay for A house, not multiple houses for the same person. I don't think that you'd have any luck there. short of just walking off and leaving the place a state I don't understand what they expected of you.

 

The rent over payment on the new place... you should ask for this back and remind them that with-holding a rent over payment would be illegal.

If they ask you to settle the rent payment on the last house, say that you're happy to do this, and ask that they contact you after Christmas.

 

 

 

as always, not legal advice, just my opinion on the matter.

[mariner51]

Is OP now suggesting rent is owed on a previously undisclosed property? Was it rented from same HA? If so then social housing (HA) rules may allow for offset against future rent overpayments. OP could ask for rel rent statements or submit a formal Personal Data Access Request under DPO.

[Donny909]

Is OP now suggesting rent is owed on a previously undisclosed property? Was it rented from same HA? If so then social housing (HA) rules may allow for offset against future rent overpayments. OP could ask for rel rent statements or submit a formal Personal Data Access Request under DPO.

 

No, the 2 propaties in question and the only 2 are with the same AH. It was a transfer from 1 of there homes to another. They had total control of all the dates of the move and the tenency start & finish dates respectfully as well as set the dates for the actual move and informed us we would have to make sure after we move that we remove all left items (which cost us £30 for a man & van) and then give the place a reasonable clean or they will charge us for there workers to do it before we hand the keys back. This meant by the dates the HA made the arrangements for the removal lorry and tenenct start dates that there was always going to be an overlap period and we could never had done anything to change that seeing as we had no control over when the HA set the dates for.

 

Had contact with the HA today and they have said they don't know why we have received no notification of an issue with the previous place which we left 5 weeks ago. They have also said the reason why they have not processed the rent overpayment to be payed back is because of this issue of an apparent rent due on the other place where the keys were delayed in getting back to them. And they won't process or authorise the payment untill the issue over the previous place is resolved!. so I tell them they are witholding a rent overpayment refund which is illigal untill we either agree to an issue we have not formally received or authorise them to take the money. They have said no, they just won't process the refund untill the matter or dispute is resolved. If that's not witholding the overpayment I'd like to know what is. Even though they were told 2 days ago we need the money back for Xmas and they have had 2 days, today and half of tomorrow to look into it and process payment that they now won't look at the issue untill the new year.

[stu007]

Hi Donny909

 

What you really need to do is write to the Housing Association and request a copy of their 'Transfer/Allocations' Policy as it should be written in that policy.

 

My own housing association if you move from one association property to another you are given a 2week grace period in which to (move property and get old property prepared for handover to association) but this may be extended for certain circumstances and you only pay the rent on first property.

 

If you then take longer than 2 weeks it is stipulated in black and white that you will be billed rent for both properties so a very good incentive to do this within the time limit.

[Donny909]

Hi Donny909

 

What you really need to do is write to the Housing Association and request a copy of their 'Transfer/Allocations' Policy as it should be written in that policy.

 

My own housing association if you move from one association property to another you are given a 2week grace period in which to (move property and get old property prepared for handover to association) but this may be extended for certain circumstances and you only pay the rent on first property.

 

If you then take longer than 2 weeks it is stipulated in black and white that you will be billed rent for both properties so a very good incentive to do this within the time limit.

 

Thanks for that I'll be fully sure to ask for that. 2 of the people I spoke to have said they have no overlapping period for moving where they don't charge for both places and 2 HA staff, 1 even being a manager in the finance section does not know if if they do or don't and are now trying to hide behind there policy for doing what they have done even if they may think the same about the witholding of rent overpayment being illigal like ourselfs.

 

I even pointed out to them that the local council and another HA allow upto 4 weeks in normal circumstances which was confirmed as being true for moving from 1 place to another. Yet they would still not listen stating they would not look at the situation or process the payment untill the new year.

[stu007]

Hi Donny

 

Please remember if the Housing Association as you say is trying to hide behind a policy you have a right to request a copy of that policy in writing.

 

Everytime they give you an excuse ask for it in writing and which policy or procedure they are refering and that you require a copy.

[Donny909]

Heard back from the HA in writing today and it certainly looks to me like they are dancing around the issue. The HA are suggesting as we first viewed the new place a little under 3 weeks before moving that WE had plenty of time to prepare for moving!. Yet we never made any preperations the HA did and the tenency start date for the new place was not confirmed untill about a week before it started and the removal date was not set untill 3 days before we moved and we could not access the new place untill the moving day\tenency start date afternoon at the earliest. Yet the HA are suggesting that it would still have been reasonable to have expected handover of the old place (keys) on the Tuesday morning to avoid being charged a weeks rent on the old place.

 

This was still impossable as we could not have possably have arranged for the man and van to remove left items before the tuesday and we still had to go back to clean the place before handover. Added to that we had a child we still had to take to school during this time. Yet the housing is trying to say 1 afternoon is all the time we needed to move and hand the place back empty and reasonably clean.

 

Can't wait to see there responce to asking for the policy reguarding all this.

[stu007]

Hi Donny

 

Well as i said before if they are stating one afternoon to move is reasonable then ask them for a copy of there Policy/Procedure stating this is the case and if not you want this now classed as a Formal Complaint.

 

Play them at there own game now request everything in writing.

[johnvernon74]

Does Housing Benefit now allow an overlap ??

[Donny909]

Hi Donny

 

Well as i said before if they are stating one afternoon to move is reasonable then ask them for a copy of there Policy/Procedure stating this is the case and if not you want this now classed as a Formal Complaint.

 

Play them at there own game now request everything in writing.

 

Hi and thanks, been to see them today and its now an escallation of a complaint as they took the calls before xmas was took as a complaint. Annoying thing is that the person I spoke to today deals with rent arrears but said they can't do anything as the person who has dealt with the complaint is above this persons authority and there hands are tied. And even this person when asking about policy and time to move said they don't know about an overlapping period when moving either.

 

Asked for a copy of the policy reguarding this issue for which nobody seems to know the details of, to be told they have passed the request on to the person who is now dealing with the issue.

 

Don't know what there responds will now be or if they will be able to locate this ellusive policy they have used yet nobody seems to know the datails of to provide it.

[stu007]

Hi Donny

 

What I would advise is to also put the complaint in writing and head it 'Formal Complaint' and address it personally to the 'The Chief Executive' not his lackys.

 

Also point out in your complaint that there is also a serious training issue with staff as to date no one has given me a correct answer or provided as request a copy of the Policy/Procedure stating its reasonable to move from one housing association property to another in one afternoon as has been stated numerous time by Housing Staff.

 

Explain in detail the run around you have had due to the incompetence of the housing staff that to date you have still not have a valid response or been provided with the policy/procedure as requested.

 

Also due to the numerous housing staff run around you have ha you are from the date of your letter requesting that the Chief Executive gives you one point of contact until this issue is fully resolved

[silverfox1961]

Hi

As this thread is dealing with Housing benefit issues, I think it should go to that forum. If you agree, I will do so. In the meantime, have a look at this

 

http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/paying_for_a_home/housing_benefit_and_local_housing_allowance/housing_benefit_for_two_homes

 

although you may be out of time.

[caledfwlch]

Does Housing Benefit now allow an overlap ??

 

I believe it does. I had one.

 

When I was in a Hostel a year ago, I was offered a flat by a Housing Association, and due to overlaps, (the HA also wanted me to move in straight away, and the Charity running the Hostel could really do with a room becoming available ASAP) the Charity went through the paperwork with me, filled it in, and applied for an overlap award, and it was accepted.

[silverfox1961]

I have used this method twice. Once when I was in a hostel and once when I moved from one county to another

[Donny909]

Hi

As this thread is dealing with Housing benefit issues, I think it should go to that forum. If you agree, I will do so. In the meantime, have a look at this

 

http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/paying_for_a_home/housing_benefit_and_local_housing_allowance/housing_benefit_for_two_homes

 

although you may be out of time.

 

To be honest it's not a housing benefit issue at all and that's not the issue between ourselfs or the housing at all as such.

 

To be clear the housing benefit on the old place finished on the last of that tenancy and the housing benefit once sorted and transfered to the new place the next day once sorted. The issue is that while we paid a weeks rent (we are on benefits to by the way) while we waited for the housing benefit to be transfered. And that once the housing benefit was sorted the HA has now refused to return any of the weeks rent due on the new place because because it took us a minimum of 2 days to move house and return the keys for the old house. In other words it's a housing policy issue.

 

We had a reply from them today (quick as well) but that only acknolaged a request for an escalation of the official complaint and like other key issues has ignored the request for the policy details as requested that was both not included or mentioned in the letter of escalation of complaint.

[stu007]

Hi Donny

 

As i said ecsalate this yourself and write directly to the Chief Executive not his lackys which from what you have said are useless and giving you thr run around and failing to follow there own complaints procedure by not providing or informing you why they have failed to provided copies of the policies you have requested to which you are fully entitled and point out if this continues you will proceed to the Ombusman as obviously the housing assoication does not know how to follow its own complaints procedure.

 

Use there own Polices/Procedures against them.

[Donny909]

Well an update or not so to speak. The intention was go go direct to the CEO as suggested. But a friend said to wait and see what happens with this stage 2 of the process as it's possable they may realise there mistake and put it all right and that taking the matter to the CEO may not be a good idea if I don't allow the HA to respond in the time the complaints stage to complete this next step.

 

The HA are alowed 10 working days to respond. This expired last Friday and we have given untill today to allow for a responds in the post. They have now failed to respond reguarding the matter at all during that time so now will be taking the matter as high as I can up the company as the HA have for the third time at least breached there complaints policy when they failed to respond.

 

Now the issue I have is that the HA themselfs don't seem to have a CEO, just a board. There is a parent company that does seem to have a CEO but there does not seem to be an address to post on the complaint to the parent companies CEO. So am wandering if simply writing to the HA head office could be an option?.

[stu007]

Hi Donny909

 

Do you mind naming the housing association or pm the name and i will see what i can find out about CEO as really that is who should now get this Formal Complaint due to the housing association failure to follow there own Complaints Procedure tut tut tut!!! also remind them that as they have failed to properly deal with your complaint as per there own procedures you now have the right to complain to the Housing Ombusman but will give them one last option to resolve your complaint.