Can Interest be applied post Judgment/urgent advice needed

[Guest]

flint

 

a bit of time till the hearing.

 

if not seen already, some useful general info re charging orders

http://www.nationaldebtline.co.uk/england_wales/factsheet.php?page=15_charging_orders_in_the_county_court

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?203298-A-guide-to-Charging-Orders-amp-Orders-for-Sale&

Edited January 5, 2012 by Ford

[Guest]

also, have a reread of the nat debtline link re PJI in post #6 ( '...To force you to pay this, the creditor would have to take you to court again. They may not be able to do this'),

and the First Nat Bank case mentioned in it http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKHL/2001/52.html

Edited January 5, 2012 by Ford

[hatesdebt]

The way I see it is that they can't add PJI on the CO application as it is not part of the judgement debt per se. It's completely separate and has not yet been subject to litigation.

 

They would need a separate action, then a defaulted CCJ (or a forthwith) before they could even think about doing it?

[Guest]

yes, a separate action re the interest would be needed to try and 'force' payment.

an important point on this is in the HL judgment re paras 2 & 3 saying that a provision for post j contract interest would need to include a statement that it would be 'independent' of, and not 'merge' with, the judgment. although flints term is similar to the last sentence of the term discussed in the HL judgment (italics in para 2), flints term does not include the final bracketed statement. ordinarily, a judgment is final re the principal sum due re a contract (para 3). therefore, by all accounts, without this 'special provision' the judgment re to pay the principal is the finality of the contract as the contract would be 'ancillary'..... (para 3). and so no post J contract interest would even be allowed! (even if there was this 'independence', there would still need to be a seperate action re the interest)

Q is though, what will the J do at the hearing?

Edited January 6, 2012 by Ford

[Flintstone1]

Thanks

 

Just Received Interim charging Order/N379 forms and supporting Docs.

Nothing new but they do state in one letter that the Court never received there application back in June, so have simply re-sent the missed application.

.7 Further Information (in the application)

"The Judgment Debtor has not made payments against the judgment debt despite requests from the judgment creditor to do so"

This is plainly incorrect and misleading as the attatched statment sent to Court only goes to May but showing 2 payments of £100 to march and April anyway, (this was in fact a agreed arrangment by the Creditor) . If when he submitted his appplication in Sept he had provided an up to date Statement it would have shown the £100 per month being paid as it is on going.

 

Anyhe way i have a grasp now of the legal arguments with regard to PJI, but am a little unsure how to respond and the protocol to use.

If i am to pay to settle the Judgment do i simply prove this (certificate etc) and ask for the Charge to be dismissed, do i then include my PJI argument at this stage or is that for the Creditor to do in a seperate action?

 

Before i pay the Judgment one thing i need to be assured about, after several attempts the creditor still hasn't provided the figures borrowed without interest/charges.

 

It looks to me that he has roll-overed each new loan to include the last, thus including Interest and making the new figure larger. (being that each new figure includes the lasts "Total Charge For Credit".

The last figure on the statements is £49723.91 this then in the DN and the claim is subjected to "Total Charge of Credit Of £14,992.20", So combined as stated in the DN is £64,716.11

Has the "Total charge for credit" in each aggrementLoan Amounts -Total Charge for Credit Docs.pdf been charged twice or is it just me?

 

Ford hatesdebt can i be cheeky and ask you to browse over the attachments to see what you think.

 

Many Thanks

yes, a separate action re the interest would be needed to try and 'force' payment.

an important point on this is in the judgment is re paras 2 & 3 saying that a provision for post j contract interest would need to include a statement that it would be 'independent' of, and not 'merge' with, the judgment. although flints term is similar to the last sentence of the term discussed in the HL judgment (italics in para 2), flints term does not include the final bracketed statement. ordinarily, a judgment is final re the principal sum due re a contract (para 3). therefore, by all accounts, without this 'special provision' the judgment re to pay the principal is the finality of the contract as the contract would be 'ancillary'..... (para 3). and so no post J contract interest would even be allowed! (even if there was this 'independence', there would still need to be a seperate action re the interest)

Q is though, what will the J do at the hearing?

[Guest]

flint

it seems that their claim was for the loan/bill of sale 7/08 being 49k+charge for credit payable by 2 instalments at 4.9k and one final at 54k = 64k. ie the amount on the dn.

a sar may be useful overall.

it is improper for them to make an application on outdated info, as you say they have 'resent' and since the original payments have been made. one option - could respond in due course with proof saying that you are bemused as, contrary to what they allege on the application, you have made payments towards the judgment amount/paid the judgment amount. and leave it there, and wait to see what they do. once they realise that you have paid (if that's what you decide to do) they may withdraw the application. or they may chance it and try and continue re the interest, in which case you would then bring up all the points mentioned re post j contract interest.

see the links i posted re charging orders and responding.

did you contact the nat debtline?

were there any subsequent court orders since the judgment? such as a variation order for eg re the agreed payments you mention?

Edited January 6, 2012 by Ford

[hatesdebt]

Ford,

 

Would you agree that the best way forward here would be to settle the judgement debt (which has to be done regardless) and then see what they do about the PJI and tackle it as a separate issue?, otherwise we are just guessing at their next possible move?

[Guest]

as previously suggested, if flint is 'happy' with the judgment (there may have been an outside chance of challenging) then could pay the remaining if poss before the hearing. then it is either/or for the creditor as mentioned (not really guesswork). better to discuss and be prepared and aware of certain possibilities than not.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Ford

[Flintstone1]

Thanks to you both.

Looking at the seperate loan contracts can you work out the figure, less interest/charges?

No subsequent orders or variation only a verbal agreement to hold interest at £100 per month which he has now lifted.

I did contact nat debtline, so am arming myself with info.

Going to pay the remainder of the Judgment early next week.

I thought about a SAR but what if they put in the Notices they didnt the first time round!

Thanks

 

flint

it seems that their claim was for the loan/bill of sale 7/08 being 49k+charge for credit payable by 2 instalments at 4.9k and one final at 54k = 64k. ie the amount on the dn.

a sar may be useful overall.

it is improper for them to make an application on outdated info, as you say they have 'resent' and since the original payments have been made. one option - could respond in due course with proof saying that you are bemused as, contrary to what they allege on the application, you have made payments towards the judgment amount/paid the judgment amount. and leave it there, and wait to see what they do. once they realise that you have paid (if that's what you decide to do) they may withdraw the application. or they may chance it and try and continue re the interest, in which case you would then bring up all the points mentioned re post j contract interest.

see the links i posted re charging orders and responding.

did you contact the nat debtline?

were there any subsequent court orders since the judgment? such as a variation order for eg re the agreed payments you mention?

[Guest]

what did the debtline say?

[Flintstone1]

In a nutshell all the advice i have been given here, without your detail.

They advise i show the agreements to trading standards just to check my concerns, with a minor possibly of a argument in getting the Judgment Set Aside.(V Slim)

what did the debtline say?

[Flintstone1]

The £123k payment was sent approx 3 weeks after their resubmission, but i agree the £100 payments would have been clear if they had not simply re-sent 4 months old statement with the resubmitted application.

Is it not incorrect that they did not inform the Judge at the Hearing in December of the £100 payments per month and of the £123k payment in October?

flint

it seems that their claim was for the loan/bill of sale 7/08 being 49k+charge for credit payable by 2 instalments at 4.9k and one final at 54k = 64k. ie the amount on the dn.

a sar may be useful overall.

it is improper for them to make an application on outdated info, as you say they have 'resent' and since the original payments have been made. one option - could respond in due course with proof saying that you are bemused as, contrary to what they allege on the application, you have made payments towards the judgment amount/paid the judgment amount. and leave it there, and wait to see what they do. once they realise that you have paid (if that's what you decide to do) they may withdraw the application. or they may chance it and try and continue re the interest, in which case you would then bring up all the points mentioned re post j contract interest.

see the links i posted re charging orders and responding.

did you contact the nat debtline?

were there any subsequent court orders since the judgment? such as a variation order for eg re the agreed payments you mention?

[Guest]

In a nutshell all the advice i have been given here, without your detail.

They advise i show the agreements to trading standards just to check my concerns, with a minor possibly of a argument in getting the Judgment Set Aside.(V Slim)

 

it may be an idea to contact trading s as they suggest, you never know.

re charging orders and response. also see Civil Procedure Rule part 73 (and Practice Direction 73). in particular part 73.8 (one reason for previously mentioning 'what will the J do' etc at the hearing, and being prepared)

you must send written evidence stating the grounds of objection to the creditor (and file a copy with the court) not less than 7 days before the hearing (73.8).

Edited January 7, 2012 by Ford

[debbbbsy]

Did you know that if the claimant makes an application to further enforce a CCJ, you can take the whole process back to the beginning and challenge the enforceability and accuracy of the original claim.

 

This is known as a Declaration of Enforceability, and you can make an application to the court if you consider your case has merit.There is no time barr on this. If that happened, they would have to provide all the statements, letters, notices, agreements for each of the accounts, they would be forced to prove the claim they issued was accurate and enforceable.

 

I hope this hasn't confused matters. But such an aggressive approach may force them to back off with this ridiculous claim for PJI. Which, as a rule, the judgement order replaces any previous agreements. If the CCJ does not state that PJI will be applied, then they are not entiltled to claim it.

 

Good Luck

 

xx

[paulwlton]

Worth a listen - involves post judgment interest.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/items/01/2008_10_mon.shtml

[Guest]

debbsy

can you elaborate re the use of a 'dec of enforceability'? had a quick look. it seems that its primary use is for cross border/jurisdiction disputes where someone is seeking to ensure that a given judgment, say here (eng/wales), would be enforceable elsewhere? also, can be very expensive?

Edited January 7, 2012 by Ford

[Guest]

it may be an idea to contact trading s as they suggest, you never know.

re charging orders and response. also see Civil Procedure Rule part 73 (and Practice Direction 73). in particular part 73.8 (one reason for previously mentioning 'what will the J do' etc at the hearing, and being prepared)

you must send written evidence stating the grounds of objection to the creditor (and file a copy with the court) not less than 7 days before the hearing (73.8).

 

further

given that their interim amount includes interest it may well be that they may continue with it despite the judgment being paid. so, could do the objections simple along the lines of

Objections

1 - payments have been made, and the judgment has now been paid.

2 - the applicant is not entitled to post judgment interest.

3 - anything else

 

where each could be expanded on and/or edited as required.

 

you have till at least 7 days before the hearing to serve and file. ensure that you comply with the time limit. in the meantime could write to creditor when sending the outstanding amount saying something along the lines of that together with previous payments this payment represents satisfaction of the judgment xx/xx/xx for £xxxx.

see what others think (could also pm andyorch for his input on what to write/do on this)

(did you find out info re a 'certificate of satisfaction'?)

Edited January 8, 2012 by Ford

[Flintstone1]

Thanks

Did already PM Andyorch for input in previous post but will do again.

 

I pay the figure to the creditor, pay £15 to apply to court for the Certificate.

 

With regard to the Application for the PJI this is what i am trying to avoid it being subject to a Order of any kind.

Think it would have a different bearing if he got his charge on the full amount, but dont want to really confuse matters at the moment, trying to;

1. Have the application dismissed/Refused.

Defence.; Outdated info with misleading argument, as not inluded the info at time of the hearing of the arrangement as agreed (£100 per month), the payments of £100 per month and the one off payment £123K.

Plus i will have Settled the Judgment in Full.

 

2. Deal with the PJI if it raises it head at the same time

Defence; All the information gathered as discussed.

Plus Human argument of extortionate rate being applied to a pensioner etc

 

What do you think?

further

given that their interim amount includes interest it may well be that they may continue with it despite the judgment being paid. so, could do the objections simple along the lines of

Objections

1 - payments have been made, and the judgment has now been paid.

2 - the applicant is not entitled to post judgment interest.

3 - anything else

 

where each could be expanded on and/or edited as required.

 

you have till at least 7 days before the hearing to serve and file. ensure that you comply with the time limit. in the meantime could write to creditor when sending the outstanding amount saying something along the lines of that together with previous payments this payment represents satisfaction of the judgment xx/xx/xx for £xxxx.

see what others think (could also pm andyorch for his input on what to write/do on this)

(did you find out info re a 'certificate of satisfaction'?)

[hatesdebt]

I think I'd go with Ford per post #92 and elaborate items 1 through 3.

 

It's almost the same as your plans in #93.

 

Would be nice if Andy popped in though.

[Flintstone1]

One point with regard to the Interim charge order (N86) am i not correct that any reference to interest can only relate to Stat Interest?

Whereas mine is post Contractual interest they are trying to add which is stated on the Order

Also in the application it states 2.. Judgment debt."The judgment or Order required the Judgment debtor to pay £137,067.12 (including any costs and interest). The amount now owing is £186,747.03 (which includes further interest payable on the Judgment debt)

 

Could this be another argument of mine if i am correct.

 

I am going pay the remaining Judgment balance, will i be able to get a "Certificate of Satisfaction" or as the Interim Charge Order is in force and the Creditor has added another £63k on the Order will the court refuse this until the hearing?

 

One other quick point the CCJ does not specify any form of payment method (Forthwith,instalments etc) but just the figure to be paid, do i take this as a Forthwith payment?

 

Thanks

[Guest]

thats just it, the interim order is for 186k (which includes 'interest'). the hearing is to decide whether to make the interim order final (186k won't be in issue as you will have paid 137k). whether it can only relate to stat interest could be another matter for objection. but, in any event, the 'interest' on the order would be disputed/objected to. depends what the J does re this 'interest', with the options as mentioned in cpr 73.8 in mind.

re certificate, i think when one is applied for 'they' have the right to object with grounds. (usually when a judgment has been satisfied 'they' should notify the court and it should be marked as such on the register. but this does not always happen, hence a poss need for a 'certificate'). if you did apply, and they objected, then you may have a clearer idea of their intentions re trying for the interest once the judgment amount 137k has been paid. but, the timing may be close to the hearing, so may not really be applicable. perhaps give the court a non prejudicial call for their thoughts re this 'certificate', or anything else.

if no instalments were ordered at the trial, and there were no subsequent variation orders re payment etc, then would prob be regarded as forthwith? but, there is this 'informal' arrangement you mentioned previously?

Edited January 9, 2012 by Ford

[Flintstone1]

Thanks

You would be correct if the £49k was the One loan taken out, then the Total Charge for credit (£14,992) would be applicable to the £49k.

But it wasn't as on each agreement (7No) each one of the Loan agreement includes "Total Charge For Credit" which then is the nexts loans starting figure!

 

Very Confusing, for me anyway!

 

.

flint

it seems that their claim was for the loan/bill of sale 7/08 being 49k+charge for credit payable by 2 instalments at 4.9k and one final at 54k = 64k. ie the amount on the dn.

a sar may be useful overall.

Loan Amounts -Total Charge for Credit Docs.pdf

[Guest]

as i see it, the claim is re the 04/08 loan/bill of sale re 49 + interest at 14.9 = 64. was this 04/08 one then a consolidation loan?

as debtline suggests, could check the agreement with trading standards.

[Flintstone1]

Already booked with Trading Standards, awaiting call back for appointment.

 

It was new loan amounts, what i mean is only Sheet 1 11-08-07 £10745 and ( sheet 6) 10-03-08 £1000 are the true figures borrowed. He wasnt consolidating just lending a new amount under a new agreement each time.

No there was no consolidation loan maybe a extra loan of £1k 04/08 if you look at the previous agrement sheet 6 03/08 the debt was already running at Total amount Payable £49,299.28, If it ran for 2 months.

as i see it, the claim is re the 04/08 loan/bill of sale re 49 + interest at 14.9 = 64. was this 04/08 one then a consolidation loan?

as debtline suggests, could check the agreement with trading standards.

[Guest]

the claim on their claim form relates to the 04/08 loan/bill of sale at 49.723 (not 49.299) plus the interest+fee at 14.992 = 64.716. the claim is re the 04/08 loan. (the handwritten note on the b of sale attached suggests that it may be a consolidation?)

Edited January 9, 2012 by Ford