Can Interest be applied post Judgment/urgent advice needed

[Flintstone1]

The Hand written note was just to emphasize that each agreement except page (6) (not regulated by CCA) had a Bill of Sale attached.

Another confusing aspect!

 

Still Cant understand if all the loans are as they should be in line with the claim, why is the creditor not simply providing the amounts borrowed without interest/charges as requested!

Could be barking up the wrong tree but need to be sure.

[Guest]

ok

well, as i see it, their claim, as stated on the claim form, is for the 04/08 loan/bill alone (whether this is a consolidation or not).

Edited January 9, 2012 by Ford

[Flintstone1]

Just to illustrate Loan page 5 10-01-08 shows if settled on 10-03-08 then amount payable is £33,508.56, but the on this exact date!! (10-03-08) on Loan page 6 he borrows £1000 and the amount to settle before the new loan is added is stated as £36,864.81 not £33,508.56 !!

 

Thanks

[Guest]

if the 04/08 one incorporates the other loans then it would be a consolidation? don't forget any interest that has been charged between the loans.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Ford

[Flintstone1]

Hopefully see Trading standards by end of the week, to check things out.

 

Have been reading up ready for my arguments, but will play it by 1st paying the Judgment, apply for satisfaction and see what comes back.

 

Have asked Andyorch to look in on your advice.

 

Thanks

[Flintstone1]

Thanks

Can i have your views on this:

 

I am about to pay the balance of the CCJ, but as the creditor has now a Interim Charge Order which states that "It appears " that "the amount now owing under the judgment or Order is £......... "(this figure includes the PJI) can i still apply for a Certificate of Satisfaction once i pay the balance of the CCJ?

Thanks.

The important thing is to separate right to interest before and after judgment.

 

Pre-judgment, interest can be claimed from the date the monies were due until the date of judgment IF contractual interest was not being applied.

 

Post judgment, no statutory interest can be added to a CCA agreement IF contractual interest is accruing. Statutory interest CAN be added to any debt where contractual interest is not accruing providing the debt is more than £5000 and then interest can only be added to any missed instalment or if a forthwith judgment has been given until the date for payment has passed.

 

A County Court has no jurisdiction to apply contractual interest before or after judgment. Therefore any order to pay interest before or after judgment can only be referring to statutory interest.

 

With reference to charging orders, if statutory interest is granted on the judgment then it will continue to run on the charging order whether or not the judgment order says this. However post judgment contractual interest may continue to run on the debt but will not be ‘charged’ as it cannot form part of the judgment debt.

 

Please note however, that most creditors do consider any contractual interest to be charged on the property so if a client wanted to sell they would have to challenge this.

 

Some useful reading:-

 

Interest Charged after Judgement

 

 

Consumer Credit Act 1974 - Post-contract information requirements

 

http://www.nationaldebtline.co.uk/en...redit_judgment

[AndyOrch]

In theory yes Flint " However post judgment contractual interest may continue to run on the debt but will not be ‘charged’ as it cannot form part of the judgment debt. Check with your Court though re Cert of Satisfaction.You now have a second ICO for PJI?

 

 

Regards

 

Andy

[Flintstone1]

Spoke to the Court, i have to write to the Creditor to ask him to confirm it is settled, he has then 1 month to respond, obviously he is not going to accept that it is paid.

The Court advised that until the Judgment is heard at the hearing then they would not issue it anyway, but there was a lot going on when i rang so i am not sure he had grasped my query correctly!

I havent a 2nd ICO for the PJI but the figure on the ICO includes the Judgment figure and the PJI.

 

I also have a "Restriction" from the Land Registry to deal with by Friday.

I am a little bit unsure of how to reply when i send through the balance of the Judgment and reply concerning the Charge.

The ICO is from last june (re-issued in Sept) and mearly was a re-sent application that the creditor claims the Court never received, at the time (June) there was a arrngment agreed holding matters at £100 per month (which continues to this day, even though he informed us he was removing in Oct) he wrongly claims on his form that the creditor was not making any attempts to pay. £123k was paid in Oct, just 2 weeks after he applied for the ICO, it was then considered in Dec.

 

Do i simply reply dealing with the Charge only and as their is no Claim for the PJI or is there as is the Creditor assuming it is applied as he has attached it to the ICO?

 

Withg regard to the charge i would object as he has used outdated information and not informed concerning the Arrangement (would that be construed as admitting the PJI?) also i can show that a significant part of the debt has been paid£123k (the creditor was informed just prior to the payment that he would be receiving a large payment, but this was not added as it was simply phot-copy of his re-sent application which was 5 months old anyway and included no current info)

The £100 per month are still being paid.

Do i at this time bring forward my arguments with regard to the PJI?

 

I have had some good advice on this thread, but would credit your opinion.

In theory yes Flint " However post judgment contractual interest may continue to run on the debt but will not be ‘charged’ as it cannot form part of the judgment debt. Check with your Court though re Cert of Satisfaction.You now have a second ICO for PJI?

 

 

Regards

 

Andy

Intrim Charging Order.pdf

[Guest]

Spoke to the Court, i have to write to the Creditor to ask him to confirm it is settled,.......The Court advised that until the Judgment is heard at the hearing then they would not issue it anyway,....

 

it seems that an application for a cert can be made to the court with evidence (form N443). it would then be for the court to contact the creditor as required. http://www.bankruptcy-insolvency.co.uk/legal_issues_explained/certificate_of_satisfaction.php

but, yes, as the matter is currently subject to a charge hearing they may be reluctant to issue one.

anyway, see what andy says.

[Flintstone1]

The whole question revolves around my potential argument if i take that path, is that the only figure that has been proven is that of the Jugment figure and when that is fully paid, that a charge should not be applied to an amount which has yet to be decided in the eyes of the law.

[AndyOrch]

The whole question revolves around my potential argument if i take that path, is that the only figure that has been proven is that of the Jugment figure and when that is fully paid, that a charge should not be applied to an amount which has yet to be decided in the eyes of the law.

 

Absolutely Flint.

[Flintstone1]

Thanks.

Ok i am quietly confident that i should be able to get the charge refused on the facts to hand.

But, as the Creditor has taken away the arrangement he is applying £4,972.39 of interest per month, so its fine being clever but if i win the battle and lose the war so to speak, the problem would been increased because he could be told to go away and make a separate claim for the interest. but say another 3 months down the line would be a staggering £14,917.17

If the Judge agrees to refuse the Charge at the hearing and wont consider the Interest at that time but reschedules, could i request he freezes the debt until it is heard? What reasons? Forms? .

 

Another point i need to check is the Interest still being added, as in effect the first loan DN £64k has been paid, but will the creditor say that the £123k payment just paid the interest on the £64k loan?

I will check this with Trading standards, but anyone any views?

[Flintstone1]

Just a quick question as you pointed me in the direction CCA 74 Post Contract info.

As my DN was issued on the 21st July 2008 would the requirments to include reference to PJI have been required as my reading seems to indicate Page 22 6.4 that the amendments didnt come into force until 1st October 2008.

 

May have asked this prior but unsure and am sinking under paper mountain of Acts, amendments, regulations etc etc.

Thanks

 

Interest Charged after Judgement

 

 

Consumer Credit Act 1974 - Post-contract information requirements

 

http://www.nationaldebtline.co.uk/en...redit_judgment

[AndyOrch]

Its not from the DN date its from Judgment date.

 

Andy

[debbbbsy]

When I CCA'd the RBS on an account that they had successfully litigated on, they responded by saying that they were under no legal obligation to comply with my request as the judgment order was now my agreement.

 

The original agreement(s) ceased once they got the CCJ. There entitlement to PJI now lies entirely within the judgment order.

 

But we aware of judges that don't understand consumer law and bully the litigant in person. The judge at my charging order, she was absolutely stupid, made ridiculous statements regarding PJI.....I left the court furious....when I phoned the court a week later( after I had calmed down) to ask for a copy of my file & clarify what she had said......she had been dismissed. I don't think she would have acted the way she had if I had had a barrister with me.

[Guest]

...As my DN was issued on the 21st July 2008 would the requirments to include reference to PJI have been required as my reading seems to indicate ...didnt come into force until 1st October 2008 ..

 

do you mean para 9a being required in the DN? no.

as you note, the para 9A (re PJI) of Schedule 2 of the Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1983 was inserted and in force on 1/10/08 (page 7-9). ie dn's issued on/after 1/10/08 would need to include para 9a, if PJI applicable.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Ford

[AndyOrch]

Contractual Interest

 

Contractual interest is the interest charged on a debt as per the terms of the credit agreement. Once a CCJ is in place, the creditor may still be able to claim for and be awarded additional contractual interest :

 

Contractual interest on CCJs issued before 1 October 2008

If you have a county court judgment that was made before 1 October 2008 then the rules on how your creditor may add interest to the debt are not very clear.

Some credit agreements allow a creditor to add additional (or contractual) interest on to the county court judgment. However, to allow this there must be a term in your credit agreement that states that the creditor is allowed to add interest after the judgment is made.

There was a court of appeal case called Director General of Fair Trading against First National Bank in 2001 confirming this. This decision said that in some cases while you are paying the county court judgment, contractual interest may be charged on the amount that you still owe on the judgment.

If interest is still being added, it may mean that when you have paid the original balance owed on the judgment, you will find that you have an extra amount that the creditor says you owe, even though the judgment has been paid in full. To force you to pay this, the creditor would have to take you to court again.

 

Contractual interest on CCJs issued after 1 October 2008

If you have a county court judgment made on or after 1 October 2008, there are new rules for creditors to follow if they want to add contractual interest to the judgment.

In order for the creditor to be allowed to charge additional interest, there must be a term in your credit agreement that states that the creditor is allowed to add interest after judgment is made.

Before your creditor can take you to county court, they must send you a default notice. If there is a term in the credit agreement to allow them to add interest after judgment then the creditor must include a special statement in the default notice to tell you this. This says:

‘You should be aware that if we take you to court and get a judgment against you requiring you to pay us the money you owe us under the agreement, you may have to pay us both the amount of the judgment and the interest under the agreement on all the sums owed by you at the date of the judgment until you have paid these in full. This means that even if you pay off the whole amount of the judgment, you may still have a further sum to pay’.

Once the CCJ is in place, your creditor must send you a notice to say they intend to charge interest on the judgment. They are not allowed to add interest until they have sent the first notice to you. The notice must tell you the outstanding balance on which interest will be charged. It must also tell you what the rate of interest is and what date the interest will run from. It must also tell you that you can ask the court to change the interest rate and the instalments you pay.

The creditor has to send you a new notice every six months if they want to keep charging interest. The notice must tell you how much interest has been added and the interest rate.

If the creditor does not send you a notice within six months, they are not allowed to charge interest until a new notice is sent. They are not allowed to add interest back in for the time they have missed.

 

How to stop contractual interest being added to a county court judgment

 

You can try to stop any contractual interest being added by asking the county court to make a ‘instalment order’. An instalment order is simply an agreement to pay off the debt you owe on the basis of affordable monthly payments.

If the court agrees to make the order, it can revise the rate of payment and alter the rate of interest, from that which is written in the agreement to that which it thinks is just and fair. This could mean a zero rate of interest, if the court agrees to make the order in those terms.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Andyorch

[Guest]

further reference re #116

Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1983.pdf‎

[Flintstone1]

Thanks

Can you elaborate more on your second pararagraph. Any authorities etc?

Do you mean in effect if its not Subject to an order within the judgment, they cant have it?

If you look at my bundle the account is still being treated as "Live" post Judgment.

When I CCA'd the RBS on an account that they had successfully litigated on, they responded by saying that they were under no legal obligation to comply with my request as the judgment order was now my agreement.

 

The original agreement(s) ceased once they got the CCJ. There entitlement to PJI now lies entirely within the judgment order.

 

But we aware of judges that don't understand consumer law and bully the litigant in person. The judge at my charging order, she was absolutely stupid, made ridiculous statements regarding PJI.....I left the court furious....when I phoned the court a week later( after I had calmed down) to ask for a copy of my file & clarify what she had said......she had been dismissed. I don't think she would have acted the way she had if I had had a barrister with me.

[Flintstone1]

Hi , understand now, but Ford was correct i had looked at the amendments requiring the inclusion in DN from 1st october 2008.

The Creditor sent his on 21st july 2008 and did not include any reference to PJI, and seems to fall short on information in the DN that i have seen in others (maybe others can comment)? And yes the Judgment was on 21st July 2010

I understand now and had read this prior but was contradicted by the above details and hence the question, would this then be a special DN prior to judgment to cover the PJI claimed? , where is the law on this?

Thanks

Contractual Interest

 

Contractual interest is the interest charged on a debt as per the terms of the credit agreement. Once a CCJ is in place, the creditor may still be able to claim for and be awarded additional contractual interest :

 

Contractual interest on CCJs issued before 1 October 2008

If you have a county court judgment that was made before 1 October 2008 then the rules on how your creditor may add interest to the debt are not very clear.

Some credit agreements allow a creditor to add additional (or contractual) interest on to the county court judgment. However, to allow this there must be a term in your credit agreement that states that the creditor is allowed to add interest after the judgment is made.

There was a court of appeal case called Director General of Fair Trading against First National Bank in 2001 confirming this. This decision said that in some cases while you are paying the county court judgment, contractual interest may be charged on the amount that you still owe on the judgment.

If interest is still being added, it may mean that when you have paid the original balance owed on the judgment, you will find that you have an extra amount that the creditor says you owe, even though the judgment has been paid in full. To force you to pay this, the creditor would have to take you to court again.

 

Contractual interest on CCJs issued after 1 October 2008

If you have a county court judgment made on or after 1 October 2008, there are new rules for creditors to follow if they want to add contractual interest to the judgment.

In order for the creditor to be allowed to charge additional interest, there must be a term in your credit agreement that states that the creditor is allowed to add interest after judgment is made.

Before your creditor can take you to county court, they must send you a default notice. If there is a term in the credit agreement to allow them to add interest after judgment then the creditor must include a special statement in the default notice to tell you this. This says:

‘You should be aware that if we take you to court and get a judgment against you requiring you to pay us the money you owe us under the agreement, you may have to pay us both the amount of the judgment and the interest under the agreement on all the sums owed by you at the date of the judgment until you have paid these in full. This means that even if you pay off the whole amount of the judgment, you may still have a further sum to pay’.

Once the CCJ is in place, your creditor must send you a notice to say they intend to charge interest on the judgment. They are not allowed to add interest until they have sent the first notice to you. The notice must tell you the outstanding balance on which interest will be charged. It must also tell you what the rate of interest is and what date the interest will run from. It must also tell you that you can ask the court to change the interest rate and the instalments you pay.

The creditor has to send you a new notice every six months if they want to keep charging interest. The notice must tell you how much interest has been added and the interest rate.

If the creditor does not send you a notice within six months, they are not allowed to charge interest until a new notice is sent. They are not allowed to add interest back in for the time they have missed.

 

How to stop contractual interest being added to a county court judgment

 

You can try to stop any contractual interest being added by asking the county court to make a ‘instalment order’. An instalment order is simply an agreement to pay off the debt you owe on the basis of affordable monthly payments.

If the court agrees to make the order, it can revise the rate of payment and alter the rate of interest, from that which is written in the agreement to that which it thinks is just and fair. This could mean a zero rate of interest, if the court agrees to make the order in those terms.

[Flintstone1]

Confused now as the reference that Andy quotes is also at Debtline info pack and there advice is that this information is based on the Act we have both agreed on (attached here), if this is the case then my creditor would not have to included the specific wording at 9A Re PJI.as the notice was before 1st October 2008.

I agree the reading by Andy/ Debt line seems to contradict what we have here!!

Anyone?

further reference re #116

Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1983.pdf‎

[Guest]

see the statutory 1983 regs. (the 'in force' date can be double checked via the statutory instrument mentioned in the regs). (how can a dn issued prior to 1/10/08 be required to include para 9a when 9a was not 'in force' until 1/10/08?). (could though still mention it at hearing, and see what the J says.)

the debtline para should include something along the lines of (in bold italics):

'...If there is a term in the credit agreement to allow them to add interest after judgment then the creditor must include a special statement in the default notice, if the default notice was issued on or after 1/10/08, to tell you this. This says:...'

Edited January 14, 2012 by Ford

[Flintstone1]

Could be a minor point but i am about to pay the balance of the Judgment, in my accompanying letter do i refer to it as "please confirm by return that i have settled my debt with your company" or refer to it as " ... Judgment debt with your company"?

[Flintstone1]

Ignore last question.

 

Judgment paid, confirmation requested, lets see what comes back!

[Flintstone1]

He has replied.

 

He states "Further Interest has accrued onto the Judgment debt post Judgment which has not been paid. Accordingly, the judgment debt is not satisfied and we therefore cannot issue a Certificate of satisfaction."

"..... i would hope that this can be settled as soon as possible as the balance is increasing at a rate of £4,972.39. per month"

 

I have attached the terms of agreement- 3. FAILURE TO PAY ON TIME ".....For the avoidance of doubt, interest will not accrue on a compound basis."

 

Am i correct that as he confirms the balance he beleives is owing is PJI then he cannot continuing charging interest?

 

Terms of Agreement RE.-3. Compund Interest.pdf

 

 

I know that it is not him who issues a "Certificate of Satisfaction" but the Courts so i could carry on with that process as i now have his reply.

 

Thanks