Cap1 & CCA return

[m55dlc]

That sounds like an admission that the £12.00 set by the OFT is far too high still, doesn't it! LTSB and MBNA! In my next lilfe I'm going to make more prudent financial decisions and NOT choose the worst guys on the block

[elizabeth1]

Lloyds TSB

 

 

That's really much better isn't it?? Now let's hope that other banks follow suit??

 

My son Banks with HSBC and he claimed charges back last year and he is very aware not to go over his limits etc.. (mum gave him riot act) and he has a couple of times gone over by "pence" and it's been ignored since he claimed his charges back. He hasn't gone over by anything like a pound yet so I don't know what would happen then if he did. But it's a better approach isn't it?

 

The difference in Banking over the last two decades is enormous isn't it? I remember my first Bank account - I knew the Branch Manager who seemed to know me by name (I wasn't just a number) I knew the cahsiers and the asst manager etc.. - nowadays when I go the Bank it seems full of "temps" usually chewing gum, they don't even look at you and acknowledge me as a customer half the time - before I put money and slips away they "ping" the bell for next customer!! Totally different isn't it? The whole personality has gone out of Banking with their competetition to gain customers - seems such a shame?

[tamadus]

That's really much better isn't it?? Now let's hope that other banks follow suit??

 

My son Banks with HSBC and he claimed charges back last year and he is very aware not to go over his limits etc.. (mum gave him riot act) and he has a couple of times gone over by "pence" and it's been ignored since he claimed his charges back. He hasn't gone over by anything like a pound yet so I don't know what would happen then if he did. But it's a better approach isn't it?

 

The difference in Banking over the last two decades is enormous isn't it? I remember my first Bank account - I knew the Branch Manager who seemed to know me by name (I wasn't just a number) I knew the cahsiers and the asst manager etc.. - nowadays when I go the Bank it seems full of "temps" usually chewing gum, they don't even look at you and acknowledge me as a customer half the time - before I put money and slips away they "ping" the bell for next customer!! Totally different isn't it? The whole personality has gone out of Banking with their competetition to gain customers - seems such a shame?

 

I remember those days Lizzy. When a letter asking you call in to see the bank manager was dreaded !!

 

Thing is it was never as bad as we imagined becasue we used to see the manager, and as you say knew them all by name.

 

It's not aq competition for customers now but more a competition to see who can post the biggest profits, usually at the customers expense.

[TideTurner]

Elizabeth, everything was centrallised 15 years ago. As they are doing with the post offices now, they are taking away the personal service. Banking used to be a local manager who knew Mr Bloggs circumstances and would make a decision accordingly. Then, with the advent of computers, and the availability of information, branches were closed and sold, and away goes a community member who could provide valuable feedback as to peoples circumstances.

 

Recently there has been the adverts on the TV etc that they won't be closing local branches and are re-opening others / new ones.

 

You can guarantee the manager is a people manager for the staff, and doesn't make any decisions with respect to loans etc. They will have an area manager who makes these.

 

Problem is, everybody has to fill out the same form, and there is no provision for exceptional circumstances, like funerals etc. when you need money quickly and you have to embarrass yourself by asking friends and family.

 

Banking and the Community went years ago.

[elizabeth1]

I think in some respects centralising things was a bad thing for the Banks etc.. as it took away the "personal" element - this isolated lots of customers and like TT says it took away the "decision making" for the branch managers whose roles changed to that of "staff managers" - it's a huge difference?

 

I used to be scared of my Branch manager and would always "creep in" and pay money into bank - but never dared take money out of my account!! I used to use the ATM at another bank for fear the manager might peer through window and spot me spending my money ha ha - I'd never have dreamt of ever spending a peny that wasn't mine for fear this manager might call me into his office ha ha So different than todays banking isn't it?

 

I often think my Grandfather was right - he used to have a bisto tin in the pantry and a box hidden in the ottoman with the linen!!

[InKogneeToh]

Hi all

 

Have any of you seen the recent letter that tifo received from the OFT about s77/78 requests. VERY interesting - particularly the parts highlighted in red!!

 

Great news for all going through this process and where no 'true' copy has been supplied (the majority I think). :D

 

Link to his thread below:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/61207-lowell-group-2-defaults.html#post551413

 

Regards, Pam

[m55dlc]

Pam, the OFT letter you are linking to does not mention executed agreements? This is good news for loans and the like, but how does this affect credit cards?

[paulwlton]

I wonder if this will hold up in court.

 

A reply to a Littlewoods CCA request.

 

Under sections 77 and 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 we are required to provide a copy of the executed agreement (if any).

On the assumption that you have signed the agreement supplied to you at the time of opening your account. We enclose a copy of our agreement, which complies, with the requirements of the Consumer Credit (cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983.

 

I think thats another £1500 to write off.

 

Still awaiting Barclaycards next move which should be to enforce the debt through a court order, this is when the fun will begin.

 

Paul

[FANTASY CHARGES]

I wonder if this will hold up in court.

 

A reply to a Littlewoods CCA request.

 

Under sections 77 and 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 we are required to provide a copy of the executed agreement (if any).

On the assumption that you have signed the agreement supplied to you at the time of opening your account. We enclose a copy of our agreement, which complies, with the requirements of the Consumer Credit (cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983.

 

I think thats another £1500 to write off.

 

Still awaiting Barclaycards next move which should be to enforce the debt through a court order, this is when the fun will begin.Paul

-------------------------------------------------

if you only ask for the copy of "the executed agreement" for your £1 are the "other side " entitled to just send you that only .... ......

 

or is the say statement of account + other things in 77(1) or in 78(1) [depending on whether loan or credit card] mandatory ( for this £1) also to move to section 78 for a few seconds would the normal monthly statement on a credit card account suffice ?

now

---------------------------------

77 Duty to give information to debtor under fixed-sum credit agreement

 

(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for fixed-sum credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of £1, shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

78 Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement

 

(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of £1, shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

 

 

 

 

 

i know this sounds a bit basic but can we clarify please

[paulwlton]

-------------------------------------------------

if you only ask for the copy of "the executed agreement" for your £1 are the "other side " entitled to just send you that only .... ......

 

or is the say statement of account + other things in 77(1) or in 78(1) [depending on whether loan or credit card] mandatory ( for this £1) also to move to section 78 for a few seconds would the normal monthly statement on a credit card account suffice ?

now

---------------------------------

77 Duty to give information to debtor under fixed-sum credit agreement

 

(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for fixed-sum credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of £1, shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

78 Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement

 

(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of £1, shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

 

 

 

 

 

i know this sounds a bit basic but can we clarify please

 

 

The fact Littlewoods only assume (take to be true without proof) a credit Agreement was signed is not good enough and they would get laughed out of court.

 

Paul

[mcuth]

also to move to section 78 for a few seconds would the normal monthly statement on a credit card account suffice ?

 

No. Statement as documented in s77/78 does not refer to your "monthly statement" - it means a statement of information signed by the creditor (also see my previous post on p43)

 

Cheers

 

Michael

[InKogneeToh]

Pam, the OFT letter you are linking to does not mention executed agreements? This is good news for loans and the like, but how does this affect credit cards?

 

Hi

 

Have copied the main part of the letter below:

 

 

 

We investigate all complaints received about consumer credit licence holders and, where we have the necessary evidence, we do take appropriate action. In our initial investigation of all complaints we consider how many complaints we have received overall and how strong the evidence is to support any action. It is unlikely that a licence would be revoked on the strength of one complaint. Where we have strong evidence that unfair business practices have occurred, we may take steps to revoke or refuse the licence of the business in question. However, if we are to do this we need to take account of factors such as the number of complaints received how recent they are and how well evidenced. In cases where evidence is less strong we may issue a warning letter to the business putting it on notice that its behaviour, if repeated, will call their fitness to hold a licence into question. Any action we do take has to be proportionate. If an approach from the OFT makes a trader change its behaviour and treat consumers fairly in future, this is preferable to putting a trader out of business.

 

For your information, the general effects of sections 77-79 requires the creditor/owner (in the case of a hire agreement) under an agreement for (fixed-sum credit, running account credit and hire agreement) to provide the debtor/hirer with a copy of the executed agreement and a statement of account on request.

 

If a creditor/owner fails to comply with a valid request within a period of 12 days (not including the date of receipt of the request) he may not enforce the agreement at all. This prevents enforcement with or without a court order. If a default lasts for a month (for example a calendar month) it constitutes an offence. We understand your concerns in this matter but please do remember however that once the creditor/owner complies with the request albeit out of time, he may once again enforce the agreement.

 

A ‘true copy’ of an agreement principally consists of the terms and conditions of the agreement and the statutory content of the agreement. The name, address and signature of the debtor do not have to be provided. Additionally, the creditor must supply the total sum paid under the agreement by the debtor; the total sum which has become payable under the agreement but remains unpaid; and the total sum which is to become payable under the agreement by the debtor (the latter two must include the various amounts comprised in that total sum and the date when each is/was due). However, the copy must be a copy. It need not be exact on immaterial points, but it cannot be a conjectured reconstruction. If the trader has no original copy, the trader will have difficulty showing that he has complied with the regulation by supplying a ‘true copy’, since nobody would know what was in the original. When the trader comes to enforce the debt in court, he needs to have a signed copy of the agreement in order to enforce. As the law stands currently he cannot otherwise.

 

In the absence of a copy of the original agreement someone's liability for a debt can only lead to further query. However in circumstances like this we would view it is as unfair practice under section 25(2) (d) of the Act and relevant to licence fitness if a trader failed to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate when a debt is queried or disputed.

 

 

 

The letter refers to running accounts (credit cards) as well as loans and is about copies of the executed agreement. It reinforces our argument that all copies of agreements (credit cards included) must be a 'true' copy of the original executed agreement, containing all of the prescribed information.

 

Regards, Pam

[paulwlton]

Am i right in saying under the 1983 Regulations the lettering in the copy must be legible, this then implies if the lettering of the copy agreement is'nt legible then the request hasn't been complied with.

 

Paul

[Peterbard]

Hi

Firstly, i don't check my inbox for a few hours and find al you girls picking on me, do i gather i am being accused of being pretsentious moi, never. Well it's OK i can take it.

 

I thought the letter posted was very intresting in number of ways i was gratified that it confirmes my previous assetion earlier in this thread;

 

If a creditor/owner fails to comply with a valid request within a period of 12 days (not including the date of receipt of the request) he may not enforce the agreement at all. This prevents enforcement with or without a court order. If a default lasts for a month (for example a calendar month) it constitutes an offence. We understand your concerns in this matter but please do remember however that once the creditor/owner complies with the request albeit out of time, he may once again enforce the agreement.

I can't remember who it was that disagreed on this point,not that it matters as long as it's clear.

The rest is a welcome confirmation of what was said in the letter i posted from the dti a little while ago.

Notice the obliqe reference to the none enforceability issue ie section 127 section3-5 in: "As the law stands currently" obviosly refering to the repaels of these sections in April of this year.

 

Peter

[Guest Battleaxe]

I have just completed letters to the three CRA's regarding this. I am wondering how they will react now I have called the statuatory authorities in to investigate my complaint about erroneous information being recorded on my credit file because JD Williams and Otto Uk cannot supply the credit agreement under section 77-78.

 

I am waiting for OTTO UK and JD Williams to bite back and they will get a copy of this reply for them chew on. I am going to send a copy of this by special delivery to Moorcroft and Reliance Collections.

[un1boy]

If it exceeds £50 then it is a running account credit agreement.I'll get this verified once and for all.Will post the reply later

 

Hi Terminator, did you manage to verify this?

[alanfromderby]

Okay, I have to admit that I have not read the 2,000odd posts in this thread, however, I feel that this may be of use:

 

Firstly, whatever the situation, you almost certainly have a contract under the terms of the CCA - what is in dispute is whether the agreement is valid.

 

This point is important as I have seen people questioning, in court paperwork, whether a contract actually exists.

 

The law (on contracts drawn up before the changes in April) is clear that where you have a faulty agreement, or the company have failed to comply with certain terms of the act, then that agreement is unenforceable, and the loan company has absolutely no recourse. This view is supported by the House of Lords.

 

Now, turning to section 77(1)/78(1).

 

Be very careful not to fall into the trap of thinking this is the be-all and end-all in unenforceability.

 

Failure to comply carries the penalty that after 12 working days you have the right to cease your payments - until such time as they do comply.

 

After a further one month, they have committed an offence and would need to get leave from a court to enforce their rights under the contract.

 

However, and this is extremely important, should they decide to seek to enforce the contract, and they have found all the necessary supporting documentation, you have to accept the likelihood that a District Judge would probably accept that they can proceed.

 

Now, we know that many companies are trying to throw a smokescreen up over sections 77(1)/78(1). I believe that this is being done for two reasons:

 

1) To avoid complaints to Trading Standards.

2) To try and bluff the complainant into believing that everything is in order, and that they have no choice but to keep paying or face legal action.

 

My opinion is that these requests are useful as a possible first stage toward unenforceability, however, I would suggest that anything less than an admission from the company that the contract is indeed unenforceable does very little to stop any on-going enforcement process.

 

I would therefore suggest that this be followed up by a letter reminding them that if an agreement is not properly executed, or is missing certain data, then it is unenforceable. (The requirements have been well covered elsewhere)

 

Their failure to provide a true copy of such an agreement when requested by a potential defendant in a civil court action, is in breach of pre-action protocols, in particular CPR PD 4.6, a fact that you will bring to the attention of the court should they persist with enforcement action.

 

You should also warn them that by contemplating proceedings in such circumstances they are in flagrant breach of their Consumer Credit Licence agreement, and Office of Fair Trading guidelines on debt collection practises. Continuation of such practises will result in a complaint to Trading Standards (or from April 2007, the Financial Ombudsman).

[TideTurner]

Any form of harrassment is also a breach of S.40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970, and The Protection From Harrassment Act.

[joneshousehold]

After a further one month, they have committed an offence and would need to get leave from a court to enforce their rights under the contract.

 

Alan

 

Is this bit right about getting leave of the court as I thought the default still just ceased once they complied even after the date an offence occurs. My understanding was that a court order was only required if the documentation was faulty. Do you know where you got this point from so I can look it up.

 

Otherwise some very wise words mate

[InKogneeToh]

Hi all

 

I want to 'rate' this thread as excellent but there doesn't appear to an option to do this here as there is on other threads!

 

Does anyone know why this is?

 

Regards, Pam

[m55dlc]

We don't need to rate it as such, but a synopsis of findings would be very useful. Does anybody want to trawl through 2234 postings and polish all of the pearls of wisdom into one straight document? Anybody with that amount of time on their hands? There's a book inside this website for someone (just as long as BF gives his permission).

[TideTurner]

M55, a synopsis which can be edited as new things arise? I'm for that, but you have so many opinions and arguments which disagree. This is as healthy as you can make it without a summary, bearing in mind the banks also look at this site

[tamadus]

We don't need to rate it as such, but a synopsis of findings would be very useful. Does anybody want to trawl through 2234 postings and polish all of the pearls of wisdom into one straight document? Anybody with that amount of time on their hands? There's a book inside this website for someone (just as long as BF gives his permission).

 

Strange you should ask this question as it's something I have been considering, unfortunately I cannot do it at the moment as I have so many claims going on that something would suffer if I did start a synopsis.

 

Rest assured it is something that time permitting I have planed on doing.

[InKogneeToh]

Helloooooooooooooooooooo!!!

 

It's deadly quiet on here tonight. Am I the only one sad enough to be in on a Saturday night?

 

Ah well, my own fault - I should start some reclaiming of my own instead of reading others' success stories!

 

Trouble is, I am Sooo skint, I can't afford the court fees at the moment. My offspring were all very inconsiderate and all 4 arrived in this world in Feb and March when I am still skint from Xmas, so am now shelling out for their birthdays.

 

I don't really know why I am waffling on but this nice large glass of vino I am partaking of might have something to do with it. Hick!! (Left over from Xmas I might add ) Burp!

 

Regards, Pam

[tamadus]

No your not the only one sad enough to be on here tonight, LMAO

 

I just took a break from painting doors