Cap1 & CCA return

[noomill060]

Phoned TS today about exactly the same thing. First thing they asked was did you sign it?

 

Yes

 

Is the APR mentioned

 

No

 

Oh dear. Could you send the document for us to check out?- from what you've said, you have an absolute defence.

 

Told me write back to the DCA and tell them not to bother trying to enforce until they've complied fully with my s.78 request.

[noomill060]

Sent the agreement, I mean application form off to TS today.

 

Sent this to Wescot:

 

15 June 2007

 

WITHOUT PREJUDICE

Your ref: xxxxxxxxxxx

 

Dear Sir,

I am writing to inform you that this account is in dispute as I believe the figure that you claim is owed to your clients “Barclaycard” consists substantially or entirely of unlawful (and therefore unenforceable) penalty charges and I do not acknowledge this alleged debt.

 

Additionally, you have not complied with my s.78 CCA request received by you on 10 April 2007 for a true, executed copy of the original Credit Agreement. The document supplied by your client does NOT contain the prescribed terms as per s.60 of the CCA 1974 and is therefore unenforceable.

As the statutory 12 working days have elapsed, and a further calendar month has since elapsed, you have committed an offence and as long as you remain in default, you may not enforce the alleged agreement.

Additionally, a similar s.78 request made last November to another recovery agency employed by your client, also remains ignored and in default.

I would draw to your attention the OFT’s guidelines with regard to debt collection and the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

Yours Faithfully,

 

 

 

This letter is written entirely without prejudice to and under reservation of my whole rights and pleas and neither the letter (nor any copy of it) nor its content may be produced, exhibited, referred to or founded upon in any Court action or in any other proceedings except (a) with my express written consent or (b) at my instance.

Cc: Trading Standards

[BLADES65]

Phoned TS today about exactly the same thing. First thing they asked was did you sign it?

 

Yes

 

Is the APR mentioned

 

No

 

Oh dear. Could you send the document for us to check out?- from what you've said, you have an absolute defence.

 

That's the route I'll be taking as well.

[noomill060]

Good stuff. Keep in touch.

[BLADES65]

Just got my Credit report from Check My File.

 

The 1st Credit/MBNA account is listed as being opened in 2003 which is when 1st Credit took over the account and it's listed as Debt Collector.

 

I think they bought the debt. In which case I have no deed of assignment either.

 

They are also stating in all their correspondence that their client is MBNA. A lie if they have bought the debt.

 

I've sent a letter and cc'd all correspondence to MBNA. Lets see if they confirm 1st Credit own the debt.

 

This makes interesting reading:

 

The man who likes his bills unpaid

1st Credit agrees £20m in second-round financing as bills flood in

Mike Cleary has an unusual appetite for unpaid bills. Ideally, he hopes to have amassed over £1bn-worth by end of next year.

Cleary’s company, 1st Credit, was set up in 2001 to manage “slow receivables” from utilities, credit card companies and anyone else with better things to do than chase slow payers.

An old hand in the debt game (he sold his old business CCI to US giant Equifax in 1998 for £20m) Cleary has taken 1st Credit into a nascent market in debt buyout. Instead of just chasing bad debt for other clients, it buys up the unpaid bills at a discount to face value, and collects the money on its own behalf. It’s pretty new in the UK, but in the US is worth $30bn a year. Says Cleary: “We aim to double our money over two to three years. It sounds juicy but we are purchasing debts that have been through the hands of one or two debt collection agencies already. You need a lot of expertise, a lot of technology, and a lot of persistence.”

You also need a lot of balance sheet. Last year 1st raised £5m from Gresham and £11m of mezzanine from Barclays. That enabled him to buy £500m of unpaids so far, and he’s chasing £750m of outstandings. But having just uploaded another £20m of funding from backers Gresham House and Barclays Bank, the magic billion can’t be far away.

[patch666]

Hi DAVEFIREWALKER

 

will you please have a look at my post #7409 and advise if you can please

 

patch666...........

[hellhasnofury]

Hello,

 

Apologies Apoligies but highjacking again. Promise to stop when I sort this out but I hope you can understand I am scared.

 

I will only get one crack at this/ My defence re ccc issued to me. They have sent me an application form with no prescibed items etc and are taking me to court for a ccj and a charging order:o

I propose to use this defence.

 

Can I pm anybody to have a look at the defence I am going to send in.

[un1boy]

Hello,

 

Apologies Apoligies but highjacking again. Promise to stop when I sort this out but I hope you can understand I am scared.

 

I will only get one crack at this/ My defence re ccc issued to me. They have sent me an application form with no prescibed items etc and are taking me to court for a ccj and a charging order:o

I propose to use this defence.

 

Can I pm anybody to have a look at the defence I am going to send in.

 

PM me if you like.

 

At the end of the day, it has no prescribed terms so they cannot take action.

[ian1969uk]

PM me if you like.

 

At the end of the day, it has no prescribed terms so they cannot take action.

 

They can, though. There's nothing that says they can't apply to court, even if no credit agreement exists. In these cases, they will be relying on the fact that the debtor does not have the knowledge to challenge them. As we've seen in individual cases on here, if they apply in court and no defence is entered, they will be given judgement even in the absence of an agreement. The judge will not do the debtor's work for them. That's why it is important to get the defence right, and make sure the judge knows that the circumstances that exist preclude him from making an enforcement order.

 

You can also PM me a copy if you like.

[un1boy]

They can, though. There's nothing that says they can't apply to court, even if no credit agreement exists. In these cases, they will be relying on the fact that the debtor does not have the knowledge to challenge them. As we've seen in individual cases on here, if they apply in court and no defence is entered, they will be given judgement even in the absence of an agreement. The judge will not do the debtor's work for them. That's why it is important to get the defence right, and make sure the judge knows that the circumstances that exist preclude him from making an enforcement order.

 

You can also PM me a copy if you like.

 

Yes, that's what I meant - but thanks for saying it in a more clear way!

[noomill060]

No prescribed terms = no agreement = Court is prohibited from ordering enforcement.

[noomill060]

But this doesnt mean you can ignore it. That is what they hope you will do. They are bullies who hope you are too scared to defend yourself.

 

Stand up for yourself and use the laws which are there for your protection.

[zubo]

Just got my Credit report from Check My File.

 

The 1st Credit/MBNA account is listed as being opened in 2003 which is when 1st Credit took over the account and it's listed as Debt Collector.

 

I think they bought the debt. In which case I have no deed of assignment either.

 

They are also stating in all their correspondence that their client is MBNA. A lie if they have bought the debt.

 

I've sent a letter and cc'd all correspondence to MBNA. Lets see if they confirm 1st Credit own the debt.

 

This makes interesting reading:

 

The man who likes his bills unpaid

1st Credit agrees £20m in second-round financing as bills flood in

Mike Cleary has an unusual appetite for unpaid bills. Ideally, he hopes to have amassed over £1bn-worth by end of next year.

Cleary’s company, 1st Credit, was set up in 2001 to manage “slow receivables” from utilities, credit card companies and anyone else with better things to do than chase slow payers.

An old hand in the debt game (he sold his old business CCI to US giant Equifax in 1998 for £20m) Cleary has taken 1st Credit into a nascent market in debt buyout. Instead of just chasing bad debt for other clients, it buys up the unpaid bills at a discount to face value, and collects the money on its own behalf. It’s pretty new in the UK, but in the US is worth $30bn a year. Says Cleary: “We aim to double our money over two to three years. It sounds juicy but we are purchasing debts that have been through the hands of one or two debt collection agencies already. You need a lot of expertise, a lot of technology, and a lot of persistence.”

You also need a lot of balance sheet. Last year 1st raised £5m from Gresham and £11m of mezzanine from Barclays. That enabled him to buy £500m of unpaids so far, and he’s chasing £750m of outstandings. But having just uploaded another £20m of funding from backers Gresham House and Barclays Bank, the magic billion can’t be far away.

 

blade can you post the url for the above story, I feel some focused action coming

 

Z

[zubo]

Sent the agreement, I mean application form off to TS today.

 

Sent this to Wescot:

 

15 June 2007

 

WITHOUT PREJUDICE

Your ref: xxxxxxxxxxx

 

Dear Sir,

I am writing to inform you that this account is in dispute as I believe the figure that you claim is owed to your clients “Barclaycard” consists substantially or entirely of unlawful (and therefore unenforceable) penalty charges and I do not acknowledge this alleged debt.

 

Additionally, you have not complied with my s.78 CCA request received by you on 10 April 2007 for a true, executed copy of the original Credit Agreement. The document supplied by your client does NOT contain the prescribed terms as per s.60 of the CCA 1974 and is therefore unenforceable.

As the statutory 12 working days have elapsed, and a further calendar month has since elapsed, you have committed an offence and as long as you remain in default, you may not enforce the alleged agreement.

Additionally, a similar s.78 request made last November to another recovery agency employed by your client, also remains ignored and in default.

I would draw to your attention the OFT’s guidelines with regard to debt collection and the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

Yours Faithfully,

 

 

 

This letter is written entirely without prejudice to and under reservation of my whole rights and pleas and neither the letter (nor any copy of it) nor its content may be produced, exhibited, referred to or founded upon in any Court action or in any other proceedings except (a) with my express written consent or (b) at my instance.

Cc: Trading Standards

 

Sorry mate - don't understand why you are using without prejudice - it gives the opposition the same consentual rights in court as you doesn't it.

Shouldn't you use without prejudice where you really do not wish the contents of the letter revealed????

 

but then, what do I know???

 

Z

[wednesday1867]

Afternoon all, im after a bit of info off all the experts regarding cca's and cca's requests.

 

This isn't for a credit card its for a HSBC Managed loan, so dont know if anything is different or slightly different.

 

I sent my CCA request to HSBC 05 June and today i received something

 

Here goes,

 

Covering letter reads:

 

"I have enclosed a copy of the original agreement which fulfils our obligations under section 77 of the CCA. I can also confirm that our laid down written procedures require the Bank to provide each customer with a copy of the agreement at the time of the paperwork is completed and this would of been provided to you. As per regulation 3 (2)(b) Consumer Credit(Cancellation Notices and Copies of Document) Regulations 1983 this copy does not require signing.

 

I trust this information is to your satisfaction blah blah blah."

 

So ive read enough to know for me to recieve a truly executed agreement it needs to be signed, so straight away i read the letter and i'm hit with legal jargon and dont know if this is right or wrong? Can it be it doesnt need to be signed under those regulations?

 

Now to my "agreement", everyone else ive seen on here, tend to be one page, again this maybe down to them being credit cards and not loans, but this agreement is on 5 pages of HSBC headed A4 paper.

 

From what i understand it needs to contain APR, it does, big box page one, cancellation notes, it does page 3, amoutn payable, it does, number of repayments, it does. So apart from it looking like it could be a new one and not mine, i just need to know where i stand regarding the signature.

 

If it would help, i could post pictures of it, feel im beginning to whittle

 

Just thought i needed advice before writing back along the lines of i require a copy of the executed agreement, i need to sign it for it to be executed, so

 

Thanks for any info

[noomill060]

zubo- yes, you are quite right. All will be revealed in due course.

[BLADES65]

blade can you post the url for the above story, I feel some focused action coming

 

Z

 

Zubo link:

 

Mike Cleary

 

It's down the page.

 

Also and interseting thread here about 1st credit:

 

Thread

 

Also do a google on Mike Cleary 1st credit, lots of interesting stuff.

[lookinforinfo]

Wednesday, try this-it was an example supplied by Peterbard [i hope he doesn't mind and my thanks for providing the example in the first place]earlier on this thread in response to someone else in a similar situation to yourself.

 

Dear Sirs,

Thank you for your response to my request under the Consumer Credit Act section 77.

I am pleased to see that you confirm this as a true copy of the original agreement executed by ourselves on the (date).

As you must realise this agreement does not conform regulation 65(1) of the Consumer credit Act and is therefore unenforceable under section 127(3) of the same act.

As this is the case I will of course be making no further payments on this agreement, any further action on your part to enforce will be vigorously contested.

Any earlier actions relating to sharing of date with credit agencies or defaults should immediately be removed.

I shall also be considering further action to recover unlawfully applied interest and charges that have been levied on the “Agreement”.

 

 

Yours etc etc.

[elsinore]

'Mike Cleary, Managing Director 1st Credit, 1st Credit consistently achieves industry-leading collection rates, due to its policy of constructive negotiations with account holders, taking into account individuals' personal situations to achieve the optimum results'

 

:lol:

 

Els

[ian1969uk]

Wednesday, try this-it was an example supplied by Peterbard [i hope he doesn't mind and my thanks for providing the example in the first place]earlier on this thread in response to someone else in a similar situation to yourself.

 

Dear Sirs,

Thank you for your response to my request under the Consumer Credit Act section 77.

I am pleased to see that you confirm this as a true copy of the original agreement executed by ourselves on the (date).

As you must realise this agreement does not conform regulation 65(1) of the Consumer credit Act and is therefore unenforceable under section 127(3) of the same act.

As this is the case I will of course be making no further payments on this agreement, any further action on your part to enforce will be vigorously contested.

Any earlier actions relating to sharing of date with credit agencies or defaults should immediately be removed.

I shall also be considering further action to recover unlawfully applied interest and charges that have been levied on the “Agreement”.

 

 

Yours etc etc.

 

Not sure that helps in this situation. It sounds like the agreement has all of the prescribed terms and so it's no use questioning it's form and content. What Wednesday needs to know is, did he sign an agreement like this? The creditor in this case is right in that the regulations DO allow them to omit signatures from copies supplied for Section 77.

 

It would help to see this agreement, Wednesday. Does it have all of your details printed on it?

 

Post it if you can, the way forward may be to openly dispute liability for this debt and ask them to show you the document you signed. Section 77 is unlikely to be of further use as they appear to have complied with your request.

[wednesday1867]

Thanks for the info and help firstly

 

Yeah it has all my details on, ill take some pictures, i take it i can link through photo bucket? Never uploaded anything before

[wednesday1867]

See if this works

 

[Sirensinger]

Hi everyone,

 

I'm a little confused about who I should send my CCA letters to if the debts are being dealt with by debt collectors. I have sent them to the DCAs; some have defaulted. I sent one to the bank with whom I have the debt even though it is being dealt with by a DCA, and the bank has replied sending an Agreement and saying that I should deal with the DCA but that the debt has not been sold. Now that the DCAs have defaulted, do I then have to send the same letters to the actual banks before I assume that I don't have to send any money? Something else I don't understand: I've read that if the creditor doesn't produce the Agreement within the 12 days the debt is unenforceable, and that within 30 days they've committed an offence, but I've also heard that the debt is not therefore written off, and that if they do produce the Agreement at any time, they can then still demand payment. This doesn't seem to tie up - can anyone enlighten me?

 

Many thanks

 

Sirensinger

[wednesday1867]

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/Wednesday1867/HPIM4286.jpg

 

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/Wednesday1867/HPIM4289.jpg

 

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/Wednesday1867/HPIM4288.jpg

 

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/Wednesday1867/Page3.jpg

 

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/Wednesday1867/Page1.jpg

 

 

Right think ive got it and all important bits wiped out

[monopoly23]

I'd cover up your account number if I were you...