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  1. Hi, just thought I'd mention my case - already posted elsewhere on here, butit might help others to read some of the points. I also lost where there was no Agreement, and didn't appeal, though I really wanted to, feeling that either the judge had been wrong, which meant that the appeal judge might also be wrong and land me with even more costs, or that something I'd said in court had lost me the case - I did say I didn't remember whether or not I'd signed an agreement, and the judge actually said something like 'if Sirensinger had said she had never signed an agreement, it would be a different story' - but I was under the impression that unless I actually stated I'd done so, then with no copy it had to be unenforceable. A previous judge had set aside an earlier judgment by default in the case, agreeing that the blank template produced by HSBC was not valid. In my case, HSBC didn't even provide a reconstructed agreement, just a blank template, arguing it was the one I 'would have signed'. They said that Section 127 (3) of the Consumer Credit Act doesn't state that the creditor has to produce the agreement, just to prove that it 'must have been signed', and that on balance of probabilities, the statements and the fact that I'd had the money proved that. I also got a charge on my house as a result of the case, with 8% interest per annum because the debt was over £5,000 - been fuming ever since, and wondering what really messed things up for me. I had Wilson & First County Trust, Dimond & Lovell and Meadows and London North Securities, the OFT Guidelines, the Consumer Credit Act 74, the Admnistration of Justice Act, and other supporting documents in my bundle, and a letter from the OFT agreeing that a creditor can't enforce without the agreement The judge said it was 'unfortunate' that they had said that, and that they were wrong. In the judgment (which the court sent to the wrong address, so I didn't get it for a whole year after the case, by which time the creditor had applied for the charging order - I felt they might not have done so if I had started paying before that, but since I couldn't prove they wouldn't have, I didn't see how I could fight this), he said I 'seemed to have based my argument on a letter from the OFT', and didn't even mention my case law. What riled me particularly was that he'd stated that he 'had some sympathy with me' because the law was complicated for a layman to understand! Any thoughts on any of these points? I wish scrible all luck with the appeal! Sirensinger
  2. Just happened on this thread, and pleased to see some people at least trying to think of how to fight back against these criminal organisations. I have spent over 4 years fighting seven banks, and can hardly believe the catalogue of lies etc. I've been subjected to. I'd also like to know how the legal system is allowing the banks to get away with murder - a district judge allowed HSBC to get a CCJ and ultimately a Charging Order against me when they had no CCA, he completely ignored my case law and then stated that the situation was 'complicated for a layperson to understand'. A legally trained friend suggested it was probably a political decision. Despite being absolutely spitting mad that this could happen, I haven't dared appeal because I no longer have any faith in the legal profession either. I would like to join any campaign which might achieve what the courts, or the OFT, or the FSA, don't seem to be doing in giving the banks their just desserts, so if you are organising one, please let me know! Good luck! Sirensinger
  3. Hi, can anyone suggest what I should do in this case? Briefly as poss, I had a debt of around £1,000 with ********* bank, I requested return of bank charges - it was stayed pending test case, I got it unstayed as it was a credit card - they were asked to submit defence again and didn't, I applied for Judgment by Default, adding a sum in respect of interest - ***** bank's solicitor then wrote to me refunding most of the money but stating that interest was too high and they would not refund it. I wrote saying couldn't consider matter closed until all refunded - though later began to suspect I had miscalculated. I didn't get a response - in fact it's possible I forgot to send the letter, as can't find a receipt, though I have a copy. Six months down the line, I got a letter from ***** DCA, who say they've bought the debt. They got a CCJ as I didn't receive papers. They don't have a CCA - but I had one from original creditor. I have applied for set aside on grounds of non-service and no CCA. I had no objection to paying original creditor once we'd decided on correct amount, but thought I was still waiting to resolve this with their solicitor. The DCA have been incredibly rude, lied to me and insulted me on the telephone, and though I've now requested the CCA, they haven't supplied it. the OC has now been texting me asking me to ring them. I haven't, because I suspect it's in relation to this, and I don't know how to proceed. I would be happy to arrange instalment payments with them, but not with the DCA. Since they've supposedly sold the debt, what should I do? Is there any point in my telling them I'll pay them but not the DCA? I'd assume it's too late for that, but I wonder why they've tried to contact me if they no longer have any connection with the debt? Any ideas? Cheers!
  4. Hi all Does anyone know what the position is if a debt is passed to a DCA and the DCA doesn't have a CCA, but I originally did have one from the original creditor. I'm going for a set aside of a judgment the DCA has gained that I didn't receive the papers for, & intend to use the 'no CCA' argument too. As I understand it, the DCA should have this once the debt is sold on, regardless of the position with the original creditor. Yes, they may be able to get it from the original creditor, but if they can't, and I don't admit having had one, is the debt still unenforceable? Do DCAs and the original creditors still have communication? Can anything be proved? Not thinking about the moral position here, just the legal one - much more to this case than I've said here, but could do with a quick answer to this particular question. Many thanks! Sirensinger
  5. Hi all - well, as a formerly law-abiding person who'd never seen the inside of a court, I have completely revised my opinion of the English legal system during my four-year fight against the banks. I am in the position of having won back £3,000 in bank charges, yet been made liable for just over that in court costs etc. by the banks who managed to beat me as a result of their lying, misinformation and flouting of the law during the cases. Their solicitors have routinely lied, wasted my time and tried everything to get court orders through without me even knowing about them until it was too late - and following that, the courts have allowed them to get away with all manner of unacceptable behaviour, while losing my files and sending things to wrong addresses so that I had no opportunity to defend or to respond to judgments, resulting in a charge on my house. Having had a claim set aside at one point due to there being no CCA in existence, I finally had to listen to a district judge, having ignored all my case law, decide I was liable anyway, because 'on the balance of probabilities' an agreement 'must have been signed' - so much for Section 127. After experiencing this lottery regarding outcomes, I didn't dare appeal in case the next few judges did the same thing regardless of the law, and I lost even more money. I am spitting mad about what they've been able to get away with, and I want to ensure that it doesn't go unreported, but I have no faith in the legal system as a route to getting justice. At the moment I'm thinking that writing a book about the experience might serve to give me some satisfaction, and have in fact started one - but can anyone think of what else I could do to draw public attention to what's going on? I would also like to hear from anyone else who has had an unenforceable agreement enforced, as I'd like to investigate the legal position, and why district judges seem to be making decisions they're not allowed to make. Would appreciate anybody's litigation details, ideas, or support. Many thanks Sirensinger
  6. Hi all - I have finally seen the Judgment from my case last year, and would like to post it here, since I'd like to hear your comments - but when I try to copy and paste it, 'paste' is not accessible. what am I doing wrong please? Thanks! Sirensinger
  7. Hi, sorry I haven't replied to this, am suffering from depression & it's quite hard to do anything! I didn't explain properly - I had a Trial, I think it was 17 June 2009 - District Judge (didn't like me at all!) said he couldn't give a decision at the time but would give it within a month. It didn't arrive in a month - so I went to Court office and enquired - they said, no, nothing in the file. I enquired again a few months after - same reply. I thought this was a bit odd but didn't know what else to do. Nothing arrived. Sometime later in 2009 I got an 'offer' from HSBC saying they would accept a lesser sum in payment of my court order - I thought, what court order? So ignored it, thinking the bank were making their usual 'mistakes' in order to benefit themselves. Then, on 12 March this year, I got notification of an Interim Charging Order on my property. So visited the Court to say, excuse me, how can they do this without a court order? whereupon I was given a copy of the Order, which was dated 22 July 2009! It wasn't in the file on the other occasions I enquired, which were well after the date the Judge said he would give his decision. It was only when I said, hey, did this go to the right address? as an afterthought, that the staff member said, what is your address then? I gave him the correct one (which I had informed the court of, in writing, in Nov 2008) and it turned out they'd sent the order to a temporary address I lived at for 3 weeks in 2008. I will try to find my documents and post them here - I had a Trial, so I assume that is a 'full hearing'. I'm now considering offering a small 'full and final' sum of £1,000 (the full debt was about £7,000, plus costs) on condition they discontinue action, drop the charging order and waive court costs, and I will then not take it to appeal. I really feel I should appeal, but if I lose, it just adds more costs, and I don't even have any money! And I'm thinking, if the courts are twisting the law to suit the banks, do I really have any chance, even if I'm following the law? Anyway, thanks for your replies, and when I've found the stuff I'll post it. But I'm already aware I'm out of time for the appeal (even if it was the Court's fault) and am feeling I ought to do something. Any ideas? Thanks Sirensinger
  8. Hi, just looking through here for help, and thought I should post my situation, because it's similar - I was also in the situation where HSBC had no existing agreement - their sols had at one point said in a letter that 'as the account is closed there is no existing agreement under which the bank can be seen as a creditor' but the Judge found against me, I think it must be based on DG's argument that the history on the account and the statements proved it had existed (I haven't yet found out what the Judge's reasons were because the Court, bless them, sent the Judgment to the wrong address, and nearly a year has gone by since the Trial!). I am now trying to decide what to do next - planning to send letter saying I will offer them £1,000 (the debt was £7,000-odd, plus costs of £1,750-ish). I'm wondering if we can really fight these people, since the Courts seem to be twisting the law to suit them. I think what I'm trying to say is, don't assume that they can't beat you, even if there is no agreement! I am furious, but wondering how far they will agree with the banks, no matter what. Hope you have more luck than I have had so far..... Sirensinger
  9. Does anyone have any advice on what I should do next, in the light of recent test cases on Unenforceable Agreements? HSBC have admitted to having 'lost' the CCA which relates to a credit card I held with them, yet the solicitor for them argued that the court should accept that 'there must have been one, otherwise we would not have advanced the money, and the statements prove that Sirensinger had the money'. I argued that under Section 127 of the Consumr Credit Act the court was precluded from making an order. The solicitor said 'the Act does not say that the Agreement must be 'produced in court', only that the creditor must 'have' an agreement. Should I throw in the towel? Should I appeal? I wasn't' actuallly trying to avoid a debt, but wanted to use this as a negotiation tool - however, I have not made any payments, because I felt this might make the judge think I was accepting the debt and therefore I wouldn't be able to use this argument. Any ideas? I can't afford an appeal, but if I lose it gets added to the debt anyway, and I feel so furious that they seem to be twisting what's in the Consumer Credit act that I want to appeal just to try once again. I was thinking that since the other side used the difference between 'have' and 'produce in court' as an argument, I could use the fact that 'have' is present tense - 'must have been' is present perfect, and the two are in no way synonymous. Or do you think they will just ignore it all and find against me anyway, since they seem to be ignoring what's in the Act anyway? Any help appreciated. Sirensinger
  10. I saw on the net a short article saying that a judge somewhere or other is putting forward some cases re the above as Test Cases. Does anyone know anything about this? The article said that if they went ahead it would result in all cases re unenforceable debts being put on hold. I haven't seen anything about it anywhere else, so wonder if any of you have further info? I've found myself fighting several of these cases, having started off trying to get bank charges refunded, then discovering many of the banks hadn't got the agreements - like many others here, I'm sure. Am awaiting a decision on one of them (even though there is no Agreement in existence, so I thought it would be cut and dried, will I never learn how devious the law is?) - the DG said he would let us know in 28 days, but it's been nearly twice that now, which was what prompted me to do a bit of research to see if anything was in the pipeline that could be holding it up. Now wondering if it's this. If anyone knows anything, it'd be good to see more details. Good luck to everyone in your cases, Sirensinger
  11. Couldn't find where I should really post this, so am trying here as you seem as if you can all do maths! - apols if I'm interrupting the thread, just need a quick answer. Am filling in a Request for Judgment against Nationwide, and have got Warrant of Execution form, intending to give both in tomorrow. I claimed the "interest pusuant to s.69 County Courts Act" at 0.00022 per day, but didn't really understand it. Now it looks like I have to calculate it and put it on the Request for Judgment where it says "Interest since date of claim (if any)" Tried to calculate it online (from date of issue until tomorrow when I'll put in Request the number of days is 774); the answer I got was: 0.17028. I have a severe mathematical learning problem, don't understand figures at all, and this doesn't mean anything to me! Can anyone tell me what it is in money? Surely it can't be 0.17 pence! Or is it pounds? It doesn't seem very much for over 2 years! Should it be compound interest? If so, does anyone know what the total is? If any of you can help with a quick calculation, It'd be much appreciated. Here's hoping! Sirensinger
  12. Hi all, just wondering if anyone knows what I should be doing next - had a trial a while back re an HSBC debt where they've admitted there's no CCA - I had originally claimed charges back, and they finally knocked these off just before the trial, where my case against them and theirs against me were consolidated. However, by that time I was fighting on the grouns of unenforceability. The DG spokesperson asked the Court to accept that 'because HSBC wouldn't have lent such a large sum of money without having a signed CCA, there must have been one'. She pointed out that 'there is nothing that says a Creditor must produce this in Court, only that they must have it - and on the balance of probabilities, it's more than whatever-percentage likely that they did, because of the statements and the fact that Ms xxxxx doesn't deny having had the use of the money'. Well, I never thought of that one!! The Judge said he couldn't give a decision at that point, but would give it in a month. He wasn't a particularly amenable person, cast doubt on the letter I'd had from the OFT which stated that they couldn't enforce, and I'm not confident that he'll come down on my side. I can't afford an appeal, because I've already been landed with £2,200 of costs I can't afford to pay if I lose! If I lost at appeal it would be a disaster! Can anyone suggest anything I could try with HSBC betwen now and the decision? I thought about offering a much-reduced sum on condition they drop the rest, but I'm afraid that'll just give them the impression I'm nearly beaten anyway, and also serve as an acceptance of the debt. Don't quite know where to go...... and am furious at the idea they might beat me just because I can't afford to go further. Does anyone know if there are documents that do say the Agreement has to be produced? If I thought I could win an appeal I'd go for it, but I can't afford legal representation and although I'm good at written argument, I'm crap in Court! Any thoughts? Thanx!!
  13. Hi all, Confused about costs -- re my case against HSBC, I had claimed to have bank charges removed from a debt of £7,700ish; they then claimed for the whole debt, also went for charge on house, & got judgment by default; I applied for set aside on grounds there's no CCA - it was set aside and charge taken off house; the two cases were consolidated, just had the trial, which Judge hasn't yet given decision on. My question is: He's asked for my Schedule of Costs, and I don't know whether I'm supposed to be claiming for costs for all the hearings, etc., throughout the case - and does it include both cases, I mean mine against them and theirs against me? I'm hopelessly confused. Also, I told him that last year I lost a job because I had to have a set aside hearing I wasn't expecting as I didn't know HSBC had got judgment by default because they sent forms to wrong address and told me nothing had been sent - the job, teaching job at a summer school, was for two weeks - I had to turn it down after having accepted, because I couldn't take time off for a hearing. The Judge (who was insufferably supercilious and arrogant) said 'I find that hard to believe' and when I showed him the email the school had sent me, said 'Oh, you didn't lose a job; you just didn't take it up in the first place' (!) Then he said 'you won't get that back anyway'. I'm baffled - I thought I was supposed to claim for things like that. Now I'm unsure what I can put in my Schedule. Can anyone help? Ta Tess
  14. I've posted details of my case elsewhere on the site, but just had a thought and wonder if anyone knows the answer - if I have a case allocated to the Fast Track because it's for over £5,000, and lose, could I then make a new Claim for only part of the amount, under £5,000, so that it would go into the Small Claims Track and I wouldn't be liable for costs? Or can't you make more than one Claim relating to the same debt? Tess
  15. Hi, I have posted about my case under HSBC thread, but basically I had a trial the other day where there is no CCA, and the judge hasn't given a decision yet, but if it goes against me, I will be landed with over £2,000 of costs. I'm in huge financial hardship, to the point where I've considered bankruptcy (though not going down that route yet). I earned under £4,000 from self-employment last year, and currently have no work - plus debts and disputes with 5 other banks and the Student Loans Co., and an unrenovated property in France that the Maire is threatening to declare dangerous unless I get urgent repairs done. I live in a house that I own with my ex-partner, where we rent out rooms, but the income from these only covers the mortgage and the bills, so I don'y get any spare cash from this. I'm currently just doing the odd bit of work for my ex and sometimes teach private students - it's just £15.00 here, £50 quid there, not a proper living wage at all, only enough for food really. I can't get benefits because of the house income, and I have to borrow from my mother (who can't afford it herself) when anything urgent comes in. I have suffered from depression in the past, and am on long-term antidepressants (just put this in in case there's any possibilities here!) The Judge is going to give a decision within 28 days - I am on tenterhooks, and feel I need to have plans already made for what to do if it goes against me. I won't be able to chance an Appeal just in case it loses and attracts more costs, and I've no way of paying the first lot. Anyone got any suggestions? Any ideas/info gratefully received! Tessa
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