Cap1 & CCA return

[Steven I_C_O]

Erm, im not sure i understand what you mean,

 

you would not bring a claim unders77 or 78 or 79 for that matter

 

there are many sections of the act which a claim could be brought but 77,78 & 79 are not them. the only people who would bring an action under said sections would be trading standards

 

So a claim can be brought under these sections??

[pt2537]

So a claim can be brought under these sections??

 

A prosecution could be brought by trading standards for breach of those sections

 

can i ask why you wish to know?

[Steven I_C_O]

Do you know of any successful cases with regards to these sections?

[pt2537]

Do you know of any successful cases with regards to these sections?

Yes i am aware of a number of prosecutions by trading standards however the judgments will not be readily available

[Steven I_C_O]

Funny that such an exhausting thread doesn't reveal such proof of success.

After perusing this thread for over an hour, may I ask what you would interpret to be an executed agreement? (under same sections).

[pt2537]

Funny that such an exhausting thread doesn't reveal such proof of success.

After perusing this thread for over an hour, may I ask what you would interpret to be an executed agreement? (under same sections).

 

erm have you understood my points,

 

of course you wouldnt find clarification of Trading Standards prosecutions why would you?

 

the definition of a executed agreement is an agreement containing the prescribed terms under Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553)

 

and signed in the prescribed manner under the same regs

 

what is your point to all this?

 

if you have a question that needs an answer then ask and i will do my best to answer your specific problem, i dont see why i need to explain the workings opf the Consumer credit Act 1974 to you

[Steven I_C_O]

May I suggest to you that an executed agreement as per the stated sections does not actually have to be signed?

Furthermore, could you clarify that a copy of an "executed agreement" shall be a "true copy"?

[PriorityOne]

Steven, you can suggest what you like.... but while your thinking about different things, perhaps you can offer an alternative hypothesis for creditors dropping any/all legal action against individuals in the absence of properly executed Agreements ?

[pt2537]

the creditor may omit from a copy document certain things such as the signature box as im sure you are aware, so yes you are correct

 

however it seems that you already knew that:rolleyes:

 

i do not need to discuss this with you, this is because i am sure you are fully aware of the requirements of a true copy

 

i find your questions pointless and unless you have an issue which you need assistance with i do not see that my time is well spent here discussing this on this thread

 

regards

paul

[Steven I_C_O]

Pt, there is no legal requirement for any signature whatsoever, whether it is a signature box or whether it is signed (or dated for that matter).

A copy of terms and conditions suffices for any arisings of such disputes under these aforedsaid sections. So, contrary to numerous postings within this thread, requests made under sections 77-79 need only be satisfied with a copy of the T&Cs of the agreement.

 

Hope this is helpful.

[paulwlton]

May I suggest to you that an executed agreement as per the stated sections does not actually have to be signed?

Furthermore, could you clarify that a copy of an "executed agreement" shall be a "true copy"?

 

May i suggest to you that an executed agreement has to be signed. The stated sections you refer to allow The signature to be omitted.

[paulwlton]

Pt, there is no legal requirement for any signature whatsoever, whether it is a signature box or whether it is signed (or dated for that matter).

A copy of terms and conditions suffices for any arisings of such disputes under these aforedsaid sections. So, contrary to numerous postings within this thread, requests made under sections 77-79 need only be satisfied with a copy of the T&Cs of the agreement.

 

Hope this is helpful.

 

I think you ought to read up on the Act and the regs. Can you point me to the relevant section that states a creditor need only forward a copy of the T&Cs to comply.

[humbleman]

Do you know of any successful cases with regards to these sections?

 

If after reading through this thread you don't get your answers, then I think it would be best to start a thread of your own.

[pt2537]

Pt, there is no legal requirement for any signature whatsoever, whether it is a signature box or whether it is signed (or dated for that matter)

 

erm unless youre looking at an enforcement of the agreement then there is very much a requirement

however, you need to be clearly refered to the correct legislation as youve clearly not read it properly

 

A copy of terms and conditions suffices for any arisings of such disputes under these aforedsaid sections. So, contrary to numerous postings within this thread, requests made under sections 77-79 need only be satisfied with a copy of the T&Cs of the agreement NONSENSE UTTER NONSENSE im afraid.

 

the terms and conditions are not sufficient to comply with sections 77-79 FACT, they would need to be an accompaniment to the agreement not in place of it

 

 

 

Hope this is helpful.

 

 

an excerpt from Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557

 

 

3 General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

 

(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument

or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act

shall be a true copy thereof.

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy--

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor,

hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the

Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed

agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of the signature by the debtor of an

agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

© in the case of any copy of an unexecuted agreement delivered or sent to the debtor or hirer under section 62 of

the Act, the name and address of the debtor or hirer; and

 

i suggest that you read Halsburys Laws of England or any other credible reference document used by lawyers and barristers across the country

[Steven I_C_O]

May i suggest to you that an executed agreement has to be signed. The stated sections you refer to allow The signature to be omitted.

 

So you're getting my drift now? Law is very vast and confusing which is why it should be left to lawyers. Can you see how baffling your comments are to posters and silent observers.

 

There is existing legislation that effectively dispenses the requirement for an "executed agreement" to be signed under the aforesaid sections of this Act.

[paulwlton]

So you're getting my drift now? Law is very vast and confusing which is why it should be left to lawyers. Can you see how baffling your comments are to posters and silent observers.

 

There is existing legislation that effectively dispenses the requirement for an "executed agreement" to be signed under the aforesaid sections of this Act.

 

If i've baffled anyone with that post please let me know.

[Steven I_C_O]

If i've baffled anyone with that post please let me know.

 

Hi paul. What were my "stated sections" that allowed the signature to be omitted?

[pt2537]

FAO steven ICO

On the 29th of December 2006 in response query Ian McCartney MP replied to a letter in his then role as minister for the department of Trade and Industry he stated this, “Mr Bardsley describes a situation in which he was sent a copy of a company’s standard Terms and Conditions when requesting a copy of a signed agreement form. Just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement”

 

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.”

This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

 

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

 

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, what is being overlooked is the part highlighted, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

 

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

 

 

this has been passed to me by a colleague, may i ask if you have any comment to this letter? seems to really nail the issues that you raise

[BLADES65]

Pt, there is no legal requirement for any signature whatsoever, whether it is a signature box or whether it is signed (or dated for that matter).

A copy of terms and conditions suffices for any arisings of such disputes under these aforedsaid sections. So, contrary to numerous postings within this thread, requests made under sections 77-79 need only be satisfied with a copy of the T&Cs of the agreement.

 

Hope this is helpful.

 

A big welcome to CAG to you, the latest of a long line of MIB's.

[dpick]

Pt, there is no legal requirement for any signature whatsoever, whether it is a signature box or whether it is signed (or dated for that matter).

A copy of terms and conditions suffices for any arisings of such disputes under these aforedsaid sections. So, contrary to numerous postings within this thread, requests made under sections 77-79 need only be satisfied with a copy of the T&Cs of the agreement.

 

Hope this is helpful.

 

If this is the case why do so many companies fold when we invite them to court for not having supplied an executed credit agreement of any type just terms and conditions for an s77-79 CCA 1974 request.

 

dpick

[un1boy]

If this is the case why do so many companies fold when we invite them to court for not having supplied an executed credit agreement of any type just terms and conditions for an s77-79 CCA 1974 request.

 

dpick

 

And how come the ICO fail to comment on individual complaints saying that it's the OFT's responsibility yet you come on here and tell us all a load of hogwash?

 

Steven, I would contact your colleagues before writing on here again!!

[elsinore]

 

Steven, I would contact your colleagues before writing on here again!!

 

Before we do.

[un1boy]

Before we do.

 

lol

[davefirewalker]

Come on guys...we know what is happening here......

 

DONT FEED THE TROLLS

 

this will get bogged down...and while it is fun to bait them I think it detracts a little from the good work that gets done on this thread...

 

Let him post away....dont rise to it, he/she has only come on to cause trouble

 

Dave

[loz]

I smell a troll... *rolls eyes*