Cap1 & CCA return

[Smoothy]

Would appreciate if someone can clarify for sure

 

If a trader (finance co.) hires to a Ltd. Co. under a Hire Agreement regulated by CCA 1974, accorded the same protection as a individual.

 

When i was looking for this clarification couple of months back I am sure I came across a site which stated that if the hire agreement is titled HIRE AGREEMENT REGULATED BY CCA 1974, then it is covered under the act provided it is under 25k and over 3months. I just can't seem to find this reference again.

 

All the references I have come across, does exclude Ltd. Co's.

 

Not sure if this helps you....

15 Consumer hire agreements

 

(1) A consumer hire agreement is an agreement made by a person with an individual (the “hirer”) for the bailment or (in Scotland) the hiring of goods to the hirer, being an agreement which—

 

(a) is not a hire-purchase agreement, and

 

(b) is capable of subsisting for more than three months, and

 

© does not require the hirer to make payments exceeding £25,000 .

 

 

(2) A consumer hire agreement is a regulated agreement if it is not an exempt agreement.

 

 

16 Exempt agreements

 

(1) This Act does not regulate a consumer credit agreement where the creditor is a local authority . . ., or a body specified, or of a description specified, in an order made by the Secretary of State, being—

 

(a) an insurer,

 

(b) a friendly society,

 

© an organisation of employers or organisation of workers,

 

(d) a charity,

 

(e) a land improvement company, . . .

 

(f) a body corporate named or specifically referred to in any public general Act

 

(ff) a body corporate named or specifically referred to in an order made under—

 

section 156(4), 444(1) or 447(2)(a) of the Housing Act 1985,

 

section 156(4) of that Act as it has effect by virtue of section 17 of the Housing Act 1996 (the right to acquire),

 

section 2 of the Home Purchase Assistance and Housing Corporation Guarantee Act 1978 or section 31 of the Tenants’ Rights, &c (Scotland) Act 1980, or

 

Article 154(1)(a) or 156AA of the Housing (Northern Ireland) Order 1981 or Article 10(6A) of the Housing (Northern Ireland) Order 1983; or

 

(g) a building society, or

 

(h) a deposit-taker.

 

[humbleman]

Thanks Smoothy

I came across that aswell and it doesn't mention a Ltd. Co. under exempt agreement, therefore one would assume that this are covered.

[m55dlc]

15 Consumer hire agreements

 

(1) A consumer hire agreement is an agreement made by a person with an individual (the “hirer”) for the bailment or (in Scotland) the hiring of goods to the hirer, being an agreement which—

 

I think the crux of it lies with the word in bold above. An Ltd company is an entity in its own right but isn't an individual. Therefore they didn't put exemptions in the latter part to cover Ltd companies.

[Vampyra]

subscribing

[Smoothy]

Thanks Smoothy

I came across that aswell and it doesn't mention a Ltd. Co. under exempt agreement, therefore one would assume that this are covered.

 

That was my initial thought. But you know what they say about assumptions.......

 

If we base our theory on the prescribed terms etc....

 

One of the prescribed terms weve all been commenting about is, in order for a contract to be construed as an executed copy, it must have the words

AGREEMENT REGULATED BY THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974

as the page heading. Therefore, by the same token if, as a limited company, you have a contract that has the heading

HIRE AGREEMENT REGULATED BY THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974

it should carry equal weight. And as LTD companies dont appear on the exempted list they should also be covered.

If you know what i mean...

Theres logic in there somewhere!

or am i just so far off the mark that ive strayed into foreign national waters?

[humbleman]

15 Consumer hire agreements

 

(1) A consumer hire agreement is an agreement made by a person with an individual (the “hirer”) for the bailment or (in Scotland) the hiring of goods to the hirer, being an agreement which—

 

I think the crux of it lies with the word in bold above. An Ltd company is an entity in its own right but isn't an individual. Therefore they didn't put exemptions in the latter part to cover Ltd companies.

 

But most lenders are Ltd. Co's, but it says made by a person with an individual.

[Smoothy]

But most lenders are Ltd. Co's, but it says made by a person with an individual.

Your absolutely right. But then arnt there a lot of customers who are LTD's?

[humbleman]

Smoothy

 

I have noticed that the credit agreements and hire purchase agreements make a particular reference that Ltd Co's are excluded but no such reference in made as regards Hire Agreements

[Smoothy]

“hirer” means the individual to whom goods are bailed or (in Scotland) hired under a consumer hire agreement, or the person to whom his rights and duties under the agreement have passed by assignment or operation of law, and in relation to a prospective consumer hire agreement includes the prospective hirer;

“individual” includes a partnership or other unincorporated body of persons not consisting entirely of bodies corporate;

But this example only explains what happens if the hirer becomes an incorporated body

EXAMPLE 24

Facts. On 1st March 1975 Z (in England) enters into an agreement with A (an unincorporated body of persons) to bail to A equipment consisting of two components (component P and component Q). The agreement is not a hire-purchase agreement and is for a fixed term of 3 years, so paragraphs (a) and (b) of section 15(1) are both satisfied. The rental is payable monthly at a rate of £2,400 a year, but the agreement provides that this is to be reduced to £1,200 a year for the remainder of the agreement if at any time during its currency A returns component Q to the owner Z. On 5th May 1976 A is incorporated as A Ltd., taking over A’s assets and liabilities. On 1st March 1977, A Ltd. returns component Q. On 1st January 1978, Z and A Ltd. agree to extend the earlier agreement by one year, increasing the rental for the final year by £250 to £1,450.

Analysis. When entered into on 1st March 1975, the agreement is a consumer hire agreement. A falls within the definition of “individual” in section 189(1) and if A returns component Q before 1st May 1976 the total rental will not exceed £5,000 (see section 15(1)©). When this date is passed without component Q having been returned it is obvious that the total rental must now exceed £5,000. Does this mean that the agreement then ceases to be a consumer hire agreement? The answer is no, because there has been no change in the terms of the agreement, and without such a change the agreement cannot move from one category to the other. Similarly, the fact that A’s rights and duties under the agreement pass to a body corporate on 5th May 1976 does not cause the agreement to cease to be a consumer hire agreement (see the definition of “hirer” in section 189(1)).

The effect of the modifying agreement of 1st January 1978 is governed by section 82(2), which requires it to be treated as containing provisions reproducing the combined effect of the two actual agreements, that is to say as providing that—

(a) obligations outstanding on 1st January 1978 are to be treated as outstanding under the modifying agreement;

(b) the modifying agreement applies at the old rate of hire for the months of January and February 1978, and

© for the year beginning 1st March 1978 A Ltd. will be the bailee of component P at a rental of £1,450.

The total rental under the modifying agreement is £1,850. Accordingly the modifying agreement is a regulated agreement. Even if the total rental under the modifying agreement exceeded £5,000 it would still be regulated because of the provisions of section 82(3).

Ill keep looking though

[m55dlc]

As I said before, a LTD company can never be called an individual, it is a legal entity, but it is not an individual. If you've got an HP agreement that says it is regulated by the CCA 1974 and it lists a Ltd company, IMO they have the ultimate get out clause.

[un1boy]

Hi

 

The cancellation notice and information on how to cancel are normally contained within the 2nd copy of the agreement that is sent within 7 days of signing (or in the case of a credit card, either before, or with, the card) as per the notices and copies regs.

 

This document is not referred to in the agreement as it is a copy of the agreement but with cancellation info added and so does not come within the 'any other document' part of a s77/78 request.

 

Also the creditor's stamp on this copy appears to contain what is probably a printed signature.

 

Regards, Pam

 

Pam, what is the date that the cancellation notice needed to be applied?

 

Also, and I cojld really do with an answer to this (I've it many times but no answer)

 

can I claim sec 85 if the agreement I have is unenforcable due to having no prescribed terms?

[humbleman]

As I said before, a LTD company can never be called an individual, it is a legal entity, but it is not an individual. If you've got an HP agreement that says it is regulated by the CCA 1974 and it lists a Ltd company, IMO they have the ultimate get out clause.

 

Thanks

 

This is a Hire Purchase Agreement as opposed to HP Agreement, 2 different things.

[m55dlc]

Thanks

 

This is a Hire Purchase Agreement as opposed to HP Agreement, 2 different things.

 

Erm, what is an HP agreement if it isn't a Hire Purchase agreement?

[Perseus]

HP Agreement is - Hire Purchase Agreement... isnt it?

[m55dlc]

Too slow there pers!

[Perseus]

Dag Nammit!

Hi M!

[humbleman]

[/font]

 

But this example only explains what happens if the hirer becomes an incorporated body

 

Ill keep looking though

[/font]

 

Thanks for that, what does that imply in simple terms

[Guest Battleaxe]

If you have a HP agreement Section 85 does not apply. Section 85 only applies to credit tokens i.e credit cards and has nothing to do with an agreement being unenforceable

[m55dlc]

In simple terms, if you've got an original agreement that is regulated under the Consumer Credit Act and the hirer is listed as an Ltd company, unless the Ltd company assumed the rights of one or more individuals and therefore 'inherited' the agreement, the Ltd company will not be able to enter into an agreement regulated by the CCA. It is commercial.

[Smoothy]

Thanks for that, what does that imply in simple terms

 

That the individual who took out the agreement has become an incorporated body whilst the agreement was still current. From the example they state that as the agreement hadnt actually altered it was still valid.

 

Hire purchase is to buy over a period

Hire means you never own the goods.

Or am i just being beligerant.....darn my stupidity!

[humbleman]

In simple terms, if you've got an original agreement that is regulated under the Consumer Credit Act and the hirer is listed as an Ltd company, unless the Ltd company assumed the rights of one or more individuals and therefore 'inherited' the agreement, the Ltd company will not be able to enter into an agreement regulated by the CCA. It is commercial.

 

Ahh what I thought, and thanks for clarification.

 

But I ask why would the lender use such an agreement, this could be construed as misleading the hirer, Surely the lender knows the law and the hirer is no expert to think otherwise.

[m55dlc]

Do you have a specific example you're refering to? If you could post it here (minus the specifics, but leave the 'Ltd' part of the name if you could) you'll get some more specific advice.

 

I looked into leasing / purchasing a car through a limited company in the late 90's, before it became too painful under Gordon's WONDERFUL tax systems!

[humbleman]

This is an agreement between a finance house and hirer which is a Ltd. co. for some equipment over 3 year period and the agreement is titled - Hire agreement regulated by CCA 1974.

[Guest The Terminator]

Banking | Current accounts | Savings accounts | Cash ISAs - MSN Money UK - HSBC bans poor customers from branch in Poole

 

Shouldn't think I'll be moving my account here.Typical BS from the banks

[InKogneeToh]

Pam, what is the date that the cancellation notice needed to be applied?

 

Also, and I cojld really do with an answer to this (I've it many times but no answer)

 

can I claim sec 85 if the agreement I have is unenforcable due to having no prescribed terms?

 

Hi

 

Normally the 2nd copy agreement (where one is required) that contains cancellation notices (where applicable) must be sent within 7 days of the date you signed the agreement and normally gives 5 days from the date that you receive this 2nd copy/notice.

 

But there are several different types of cancellation notices depending on what sort of agreement it is, when/how/where it was made etc. and also different requirement for 2nd copies depending on the same sort of criteria so it all depends on each particular case.

 

Default under s85 gives the same result as an agreement that hasn't got all of the prescribed terms, i.e. unenforceable - which brings us back to the question of what that really means in terms of money already paid!

 

Regards, Pam