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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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Cap1 & CCA return


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There are no costs awarded in the small claims court, (unless the behaviour is unreasonable) however a schedule of costs will be prepared by the opposition just in case it goes to appeal. If you take the case to appeal and lose you will be liable for the other sides costs.

 

 

 

Paul

 

Ok - that's a bit worrying. Can I appeal the circuit judge's decision if I don't win?

Disclaimer: Anything I write in these forums is my personal opinion and offered without prejudice. If in doubt, please seek independent legal advice.

 

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un1boy vs egg *SETTLED* | Un1boy vs LTSB-SETTLED | un1boy vs Black Horse-SETTLED | Un1boy v Smile *WON* | un1boy v HSBC - SETTLED! | Un1boy's HSBC CC - SETTLED! | Un1boy vs Co-Op *SETTLED* |un1boy vs Co-Op CC *SETTLED*

 

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This is grounds for appeal on a mistake in law

 

That's what I thought - I can't be assed with it all anymore, but wwill have to continue to appeal.

 

I lost the OD claim as well - she said that no agreement was needed and depsite them not sending me a copy of the relevant info under the determination when the account changed to a student account (which they also admitted they did not have reference to), she allowed them to rely on the orginal letter that was sent when the first OD was taken out - I pointed out that the account changed and therefore a new agreement with new rates and t&c's was obtained so for that particular account, it is not enforcable. She did not agree. They just told her that no agreement was needed so sec 78, 60 etc was not relevant - she wouldn't listen to the fact that they HAD to provide the relevant info under the determination. I cna now only refer this to the OFT for investigation -not that they'll do anything.

 

I will just pay this account to be honest - I can't run the risk of appealing this one and losing.

 

I'll continue to appeal on the credit card agreement though.

Disclaimer: Anything I write in these forums is my personal opinion and offered without prejudice. If in doubt, please seek independent legal advice.

 

*If what I have told you in this post has helped, please press the star at the bottom left and tell me!!*

 

My charges claims:

un1boy vs egg *SETTLED* | Un1boy vs LTSB-SETTLED | un1boy vs Black Horse-SETTLED | Un1boy v Smile *WON* | un1boy v HSBC - SETTLED! | Un1boy's HSBC CC - SETTLED! | Un1boy vs Co-Op *SETTLED* |un1boy vs Co-Op CC *SETTLED*

 

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HI

 

Sorry yes i believe that this is the only acceptable cause for appeal in these cases.

 

Peter

 

Bear in mind too that I received their skeleton arguments by email the day before the hearing (they came in the post on the day of the hearing!!) and their arguments made no reference to them relying on the definition - the sol told her that he realised it on the train on the way up....so, I had no way of defending their arguments anyway!!

Disclaimer: Anything I write in these forums is my personal opinion and offered without prejudice. If in doubt, please seek independent legal advice.

 

*If what I have told you in this post has helped, please press the star at the bottom left and tell me!!*

 

My charges claims:

un1boy vs egg *SETTLED* | Un1boy vs LTSB-SETTLED | un1boy vs Black Horse-SETTLED | Un1boy v Smile *WON* | un1boy v HSBC - SETTLED! | Un1boy's HSBC CC - SETTLED! | Un1boy vs Co-Op *SETTLED* |un1boy vs Co-Op CC *SETTLED*

 

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Hi

I am sorry I can’t get my scanner to work.

 

The section is on page 322 under the heading signature of documents.

The relevant quote from Goode is.

 

“By Para(b) the document must embody all express terms of the agreement word "embody”(in contrast to “Contain” in Para (a) )means that a document need not set out all the terms in itself but may refer to another document, however that document must be expressly referred to; an implication however clear, would not suffice.”

 

 

The point is.

 

Section 61a contains the instructions to the creditor that all the “prescribed terms” must be “contained” within the agreement.

 

Whereas the section used as the defence in Uniboys case refers to section 61(b) which refers to the “terms” “embodying” the agreement which refer to all other information not contained in the regulations (default procedure, contact information, matters relating to company policy, etc. These can be located in another document as long as it is expressly referred to in the text of the agreement.

 

 

The judge appears to have been misled in this.

 

 

Regards

Peter

HI Peter,

 

Bingo ive found it, its in volume 2 out of the 5 that i have, i was trawling for it in volume 1 for some reason

 

ive managed to get my scanner to work too so i have scanned it in to my pc;)

 

Cheers mate

 

Regards

 

Paul

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Re the agreement "containing" the prescribed terms - how would I shoe the judge that to be contained they have to be on the sig doc? The Judge assumed that they can be contained in the agreement if they are in the T&C's.

 

The bank confirmed they didn't have the T&C's and couldn't confirm what was in them, but they sent me another copy when the account was defaulted if the T&C's at that timw (Which they also lost) - I understand the balance of proabability, but they had nothing to show the prescribed terms were/would have been in the t&c's.....it would be interesting to see one of their agreements now to see how they manage it.

Disclaimer: Anything I write in these forums is my personal opinion and offered without prejudice. If in doubt, please seek independent legal advice.

 

*If what I have told you in this post has helped, please press the star at the bottom left and tell me!!*

 

My charges claims:

un1boy vs egg *SETTLED* | Un1boy vs LTSB-SETTLED | un1boy vs Black Horse-SETTLED | Un1boy v Smile *WON* | un1boy v HSBC - SETTLED! | Un1boy's HSBC CC - SETTLED! | Un1boy vs Co-Op *SETTLED* |un1boy vs Co-Op CC *SETTLED*

 

Default removals:

un1boy v Equifax - Default removal

un1boy vs Experian - Default removal

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HI Peter,

 

Bingo ive found it, its in volume 2 out of the 5 that i have, i was trawling for it in volume 1 for some reason

 

ive managed to get my scanner to work too so i have scanned it in to my pc;)

 

Cheers mate

 

Regards

 

Paul

 

Paul can you send me a copy.

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Sorry to butt in:

 

You take a loan to clear some debt one of which is arrears of your 1st charge mortgage. The loan is from a different company and say for £40,000.

 

Amount of arrears is under £25k, the loan company pay the money direct to the mortgage company - this is to pay for a mortgage arrears on land and these arrears have to be paid as a condition of the new loan.

 

The remaining £15k is sent by cheque to us to use as we want - fixed sum unrestricted use debtor creditor credit s.11 (2) CCA

 

Loans for the purpose of purchasing land is an ' Exempt agreement under s.16 CCA '74'

 

So does that make this part of your loan an 'exempt agreement' ?

 

or

 

a fixed sum restricted use debtor/creditor credit as in s.11(1)(b) ?

 

 

Broker fees of £2500 a cost of credit as are admin fees and not a part of the 'credit' ?

 

 

Be interested in your views

Tom

Legal & Trade - Capital Bank CCA 4th May - 16th May due

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Hi

 

I recently took out a secured loan which was regulated by the CCA(it said so n the top of the agreement). My understanding is that the bank or bs has to be registerred exempt for the exemption to apply most banks are.

 

There is certainly a lot of legislation within the cca to cover secured loans whether this only applies to property and not land i am unsure although mine was secured on my house,and they adhered to the section 58 requirements of presenting me with a copy seven days before the signature copy arrived.

 

If of course the loan was for over 25K it would not be regulated by the cca anyway.

 

Any broker fees shoud be included within the Total charge for credit and not make up part of the loan this applis in all casses.

 

Best regards

Peter

Edited by Dodgeball

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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Hello Peter

 

I have rescanned and attached the Lloyds CCA (minus the account number!)

 

Please can you have a look and let me know whether you consider it enforceable or not? Also it would be helpful if you gave the reasons either way :wink:

 

Thanx

jax

 

HI

I am affraid you would have a very hard time trying to get this declared unenforceable,although there are some minor discrepecies in the agreement all the prescribed terms are there.

 

In my experiance courts are not simpathetic to peoplle challenging their agreements and usually the successfol casses depend on a major breach in the act (usually section 127) and the ability of the debtor to focus the judges mind on the regulations.

 

Best regards

Peter

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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Hello Jax007!

 

Please can you have a look and let me know whether you consider it enforceable or not? Also it would be helpful if you gave the reasons either way

 

Peter's comments are quite valid, assuming what we are looking at is a (poor) copy of a real two-sided Document.

 

However, I feel it is worth mentioning that what they have sent appears to be two copies of two Microfiche Copies. Note the dark black areas around both pages...you don't normally get that via a Photocopier.

 

These appear to be copies of copies in that case. These do not look like someone has copied a two sided Document by simply flipping the thing over on a Photocopier. The quality would be better for a start, as banks have more than enough money to afford the very best Photocopiers.

 

A poor copy should ring alarm bells the moment you see it. Why is the copy poor?

 

Furthermore, I can't see anything concrete that links the two Pages. I think these are two Scans, so two Documents if that is all they now have, neither of which can ever be the Original once saved to plastic. The Signature Page has many Printer's Marks or Document References and a Barcode, whereas the Terms and Conditions Page is very plain and has almost nothing other than Text. Is this really the back of the Signature Page?

 

These could just be two documents brought together in one envelope and sent to you, just to satisfy a s78 CCA Request. I regret that I do not trust banks not to try to give the impression they have an Enforceable Agreement, when in fact that may not be the case.

 

Peter is quite right that the Prescribed Terms appear to be all there if these are two sides of the same Original Agreement and if the Original is more readable than the crabby thing(s) they have sent.

 

But, have they got the Original Agreement, that is the question. That would be the only thing that could prove these two Pages were ever part of the same properly executed Regulated Consumer Credit Agreement.

 

If they wished to enforce a Written Agreement in Court, they would need to bring the Original Agreement to the hearing see:

 

CPR Practice Direction 16 7.3

 

I feel you must ask to see the Original, or make sure you request that they must bring this to Court if it comes to Court.

 

Finally, can you read all of this? If anything important cannot be read, then you can argue that they have not even satisfied your s78 CCA Request, as the documents must be legible to comply with:

 

Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983.

 

Sorry, can't find the link to this, but the part you need to refer to is below:

 

2

(1) The lettering in every notice in a Form prescribed by these Regulations and in every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall, apart from any signature, be easily legible and of a colour which is readily distinguishable from the .

 

Cheers,

BRW

Edited by banker_rhymes_with
Can't spell or type!
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Jax007

 

I have a letter of the FOS regarding my LTSB account and they confirm they have NOT got the original only a Micrfish copy. That was a 2004 agreement so you may be in look.

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Thanks for your replies guys ... much appreciated.

 

From your posts I gather that

 

1. Peter

Considers this a weak case for unenforceability on the basis the prescribed terms appear to all be there. But what if both pages are NOT the same document? BRW has implied there is no link between the two pages.

 

2. BRW

Says it appears these are NOT PHOTOCOPIES (and I believe they must be photocopies and not reproduced scanned documents .... do I have this right?) but reconstituted scans. On the basis that these are SCANNED documents should I write to the bank and ask them outright whether they have the original document? I assume if they DON'T have original (and they admit to it of course!) then it is fait a complis???

 

3. HAK

Are you saying here that the FOS has sent you a letter saying LTSB does not have original? Also that the agreement cannot therefore be enforced? If so what action have you now taken or where do you stand with this now?

 

Please correct me if I have misread any of your posts.

Again thanks for your time and efforts guys.

jax

:cool:

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Hello jax007!

 

Peter is very experienced with the CCA, so his comments are accurate based on the document(s) we have seen. If the bankers have the Original, then it would appear to be Enforceable.

 

However, Peter's comments are based on the assumption that what we have seen are two sides of the same Written Agreement.

 

I'm saying you need to ask if that is really the case. If the bankers have destroyed the Original, then CPR PD 16 7.3 gives them something of a problem. If they no longer have the Original, they cannot bring it to a hearing as required.

 

In the past, I feel that a lack of awareness of CPR PD 16 7.3 has resulted in many people being treated very unfairly when in Court. I'm well aware that many banks have managed to get away with bringing dubious copies of alleged Agreements to Court. In each case, had the Judge at the time been made aware of CPR PD 16 7.3, then the outcome should've been in the alleged Debtor's favour. Indeed, some Judges are well aware of this, and have thrown out bank claims when no Original Agreement could be produced in Court.

 

After all, how far would you get in life with a poor Copy of your Exam Certificates, a poor Copy of your Birth Certificate, a poor Copy of your Driving Licence, a poor Copy of your Marriage Certificate, a poor Copy of a Utility Bill, a poor Copy of a Tennant's Agreement (if you are the landlord), a poor Copy of your Shotgun Certificate, a poor Copy of a winning Lottery Ticket?

 

You'd get precisely nowhere, of course.

 

So, why should a bank get away with arriving in Court with a poor copy of a Written Agreement?

 

In your case, at least from what we have seen, it does not look like the bank are holding an Original Agreement. The copies they have sent have tell-tale clues that suggest they did not simply walk up to a modern well maintained Photocopier, and copy an Original two-sided Agreement.

 

Otherwise, had they done so, your two pages would've been more or less crystal clear, instead of being blurred, smudged and crabby looking with a thick black background evident around the edges.

 

The point you must understand is that many banks never held Enforceable Original Agreements in the first place. Thus, if given the chance to dispense with the need to produce the Original, many bankers will be only too pleased to generate copies, as this gives them the opportunity to include all of the Prescribed Terms they neglected to include the first time around.

 

I do not trust banks, and I do not trust copies because it's all too easy to manipulate copies to say what ever you want them to say.

 

Put another way, if you wanted to generate a copy of something that you knew was highly dubious, would you make that copy crystal clear or would you attempt to blurr it to hide the evidence of your handywork?

 

Alarm bells should ring the moment you see a poor Copy of an Agreement.

 

Cheers,

BRW

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Hi

 

The problem is that all these points are subjective,(is the copy legible,is the copy photocopied,is the copy a true copy in the sence that it reflects the orriginal?

 

Past casses on here and elswhere have shown that in these casses the judge has just said, yes they are, in one the judge ruled for the creditor even though the prescribed terms where totally illegible.

 

It is all fair and good arguing on here over the finer points of the act ,and i have done my fair bit of it, but it is a different matter when you are in court.

I have found that the only winning casses are those that are cut and dried as in a: the agreement does not exist b: The prescribed terms are completely missing or incorrect.

 

A major factor is also that the debtor is fully conversant with that legislation and can think on his feet ,you usually only get one chance to make your point,it is pointless thinkng of some technical detail after the case is over, so a thourough understanding of your case and the legislation is essential and it is to this end that i say keep it simple.

 

I have been involved in a few recent succeses some involving people on here,so it can be done. But in every case the agreements have been obviously defective and even then each and every one had to be argued and time and again the judges attention had to be focused on a particular point of law.

Please don't think i am trying to dissuade you from any course of action you want to take i am just trying to answer your question in the light of my experance.

 

Good Luck

 

All the best

peter

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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It is all fair and good arguing on here over the finer points of the act ,and i have done my fair bit of it, but it is a different matter when you are in court.

 

A major factor is also that the debtor is fully conversant with that legislation and can think on his feet ,you usually only get one chance to make your point,it is pointless thinkng of some technical detail after the case is over

 

Excellent advice Peter!

 

I don't think you realise how difficult it is to muster your thoughts/facts & put a coherent & persuasive case in front of a judge & the oppostion until you have done it.

 

Not only do you have to know your own case & the laws pertaining to it but it seems that some DJs are prejudiced in favour of the financial institutions before you even start to present. It's an uphill battle & just 'cos the law is technically on your side doesn't mean the judgement will be!

Any knowledge I possess or advice I proffer is based solely on my experiences in the University of Life. Please make your own assessment of legality, risks & costs before taking any action.

 

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Hi

 

The problem is that all these points are subjective,(is the copy legible,is the copy photocopied,is the copy a true copy in the sence that it reflects the orriginal?

 

Past casses on here and elswhere have shown that in these casses the judge has just said, yes they are, in one the judge ruled for the creditor even though the prescribed terms where totally illegible.

 

It is all fair and good arguing on here over the finer points of the act ,and i have done my fair bit of it, but it is a different matter when you are in court.

I have found that the only winning casses are those that are cut and dried as in a: the agreement does not exist b: The prescribed terms are completely missing or incorrect.

 

A major factor is also that the debtor is fully conversant with that legislation and can think on his feet ,you usually only get one chance to make your point,it is pointless thinkng of some technical detail after the case is over, so a thourough understanding of your case and the legislation is essential and it is to this end that i say keep it simple.

 

I have been involved in a few recent succeses some involving people on here,so it can be done. But in every case the agreements have been obviously defective and even then each and every one had to be argued and time and again the judges attention had to be focused on a particular point of law.

Please don't think i am trying to dissuade you from any course of action you want to take i am just trying to answer your question in the light of my experance.

 

Good Luck

 

All the best

peter

 

Very very accurate advice, i have been before a judge where the judge said he would accept a type copy of the information which was contained within the agreement as the copy produced was illegible, so it happens

 

While there is legislation which says the "copy" must be legible, it is highly unlikely that this will be considered by the judge unless you have counsel representing you who can put forward a killer argument

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3. HAK

Are you saying here that the FOS has sent you a letter saying LTSB does not have original? Also that the agreement cannot therefore be enforced? If so what action have you now taken or where do you stand with this now?

 

They said it will be up to the Courts to see if it wass unenforcable

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Just a quicky

 

How easy is would it be to start Civil proceddings against a DC for the pain and suffering caused by an illegall SD been issued.

 

Also how would you get it to be heard at a local Court?

HAK

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Guys guys guys

 

Thank you all SO much for your invaluable advice and knowledgeable opinions.

 

I have read and digested (and in this case pretty much understood) what you have said.

 

To sum up then IMO ....

 

1. What I have (as a document) appears to be enforceable on the basis all the prescribed terms appear to be present (or rather it is highly unlikely to be rendered UNenforceable).

2. The 'evidence' that the 2 sheets may NOT be part of the same document is really too flimsy to pursue for unenforceability.

 

3. The ONLY 'winning' argument would be if the OC do NOT have the ORIGINAL agreement.

 

Please confirm I have read and understood correctly.

 

My question is ....

 

On the basis of #3, should I write to the OC* and ask them

a) do they have the original agreement?

b) if they do, are they able to produce it in court if required to do so?

* Any chance someone could post some decent wording for this letter please? Or should I just leave very simple as in a) and b)??

 

I will NOT pursue this one on the evidence I have but please confirm it WOULD be worth pursuing if the OC's response states they do NOT have ORIGINAL.

 

Sorry this is a bit long-winded but just want to be clear.

 

Thanks again

Hopefully the next responses from you guys will put this particular baby to bed :wink:

 

jax

:cool:

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Guys guys guys

 

3. The ONLY 'winning' argument would be if the OC do NOT have the ORIGINAL agreement.

 

:cool:

 

A tactic I have used is to write saying that after taking legal advice you have concerns regarding the enforceability of the agreement but an inspection of the original would clarify the situation. Then ask to inspect it with your legal advisor at their local office. They will almost certainly say no, which is tantamount to an admission that they don't have it. If they then pursue you further, make an official complaint that they're not attempting to resolve the problem and when they still don't let you see the original, escalate it to the FOS. If nothing else, it will give you a considerable breathing space.

RMW

"If you want my parking space, please take my disability" Common car park sign in France.

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Thanks Hak

 

You taking this one to court then?

 

jax

:cool:

 

Well hopefully if the SD get set aside with no hassle.

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