Ingeus

[Bakatcha]

Hi Signmaker - from what you say the doubt has been raised already. If this is the case then it is no good talking to or trying to reason with the pimp, they cannot undo the situation and by talking to them you are only forewarning them of your defence. - Unless you wish to slap in a formal complaint, of course then you will have to provide pimp with your defence as part of your complaint (but this could wait until the sanction issue is resolved).

Now - what to do?

You can either -

1. Sit back and wait for the JCP to notify you of the sanction doubt and hope that they do so giving you sufficient time to present your side of the story.

or

2. Write to the JCP along the lines of "I understand from a letter dated xxx from yyy pimp that a "sanction doubt" has been raised against me. Then request a copy of the form WP08. (the form pimpo uses to raise the doubt with the JCP). Put your case but reserve the right to add further evidence. Have a look at this thread - it may help you http://unemploymentmovement.com/forum/welfare-to-work/3985-mandated-to-send-advisor-updated-cv-long-thread-sorry-help-welcome?start=7

or

3. Do nothing. In which case you will most probably be sanctioned and signal to the pimp that you are an easy target next time he/she feels like sanctioning someone (remember sanctions get longer each time!)

 

Let us know what you decide.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Bakatcha

[signmaker]

Hi Bakatcha, thank you for such a quick response,

 

I have had an issue with this pimp previously, and I think revenge is on the books!!!!

 

I already have had the doubt letter and have 10 days to respond, if the pimp has given the JC plus my reason for missing my "appointment" then it is the JC Plus that that has raised the issue of it not being a feasable excuse, whereas I can't have a go at the pimp, unless she had the choice on wether to report my canceled appointment or not, when she herself, said it was ok.

 

From what you have said it looks like it is the pimps choice.

I will call the sender of the letter and give my reason for not attending and plead my case and see what happens.

 

Question, Does the pimp HAVE to report a canceled appointment to the JCp?

Question, Do I have to continue signing on / attending work programme if I am sanctioned?

Question, On a joint claim does all monies get stopped?, is my other half going to be penalised for my so called "indiscression"?

 

I know that if there is a next time, I will have a better excuse to give them, even if its not altogether true.

I will let you know the outcome.

 

signmaker

[kitty13]

Had my first appointment X amount of days ago, and I was absolutely horrified that we are afforded no privacy when answering those personal questions. Half way through another advisor sat down with someone, inches away from me. Next time I shan't be answering anything unless privacy is given.

I also wished i had known that I didn't have sign those forms before I did...oops!

[Bakatcha]

Hi Signmaker

Question, Does the pimp HAVE to report a canceled appointment to the JCp? Yes I think this is virtually automatic - it's a sort of knee jerk reaction - you're not there , therefore it's a FAILURE TO ATTEND - doesn't seem to matter how many times you told them you wouldn't be able to be there or how many times they agreed that was reasonable - just another stupidity of the system

Question, Do I have to continue signing on / attending work programme if I am sanctioned? Yes - you are their property - unless you wnat another sanction?

Question, On a joint claim does all monies get stopped?, is my other half going to be penalised for my so called "indiscression"? I don't know!

 

My Advice: Fight it - youi'll probably win and what have you got to lose?

Edited August 31, 2012 by Bakatcha

[Bakatcha]

Had my first appointment X amount of days ago, and I was absolutely horrified that we are afforded no privacy when answering those personal questions. Half way through another advisor sat down with someone, inches away from me. Next time I shan't be answering anything unless privacy is given.

I also wished i had known that I didn't have sign those forms before I did...oops!

Tell them that you are recording the appointment (even if you aren't! BUT YOU SHOULD BE!). DWP guidelines say that they must then ensure privacy - oddly enough not your privacy but the privacy of someone who might inadvertently be reorded by your device!

[signmaker]

Hi Signmaker

Question, Does the pimp HAVE to report a canceled appointment to the JCp? Yes I think this is virtually automatic - it's a sort of knee jerk reaction - you're not there , therefore it's a FAILURE TO ATTEND - doesn't seem to matter how many times you told them you wouldn't be able to be there or how many times they agreed that was reasonable - just another stupidity of the system

Question, Do I have to continue signing on / attending work programme if I am sanctioned? Yes - you are their property - unless you wnat another sanction?

Question, On a joint claim does all monies get stopped?, is my other half going to be penalised for my so called "indiscression"? I don't know!

 

My Advice: Fight it - youi'll probably win and what have you got to lose?

 

Thanks Bakacha,

As you say I have nothing to lose, I have been playing their game but it seems that this advisor wants to turn it up a notch, I will be doing my best to get this doubt lifted first thing Monday morning, but seeing as she wants to play this game she will also be getting a waiver letter the next time I see her, or one will be posted to Ingeus, and am I right in thinking I am within my rights to ask for a copy of everything I've signed, from them? just to waste their time of course.

 

My OH has also said that a waiver letter is in order for the pimps at A4E where she has to attend too.

 

Being a dole stinks and so does this system!!! I want to work and have secured a casual job, the problem here is, I may only get offered one day a week I may get three, I have to state my income to JCplus and it is taken off my benefit, therefore I am in effect working for my dole money.

If I am asked to work more than 16 hours I will have to refuse, as 16 hours is classed as a full time job as far as JCplus are concerned and I will have to sign off the dole, although 16 hours wage would not be enough to live on, and is not enough hours to claim any wage top up.

Signing off the dole and working 16 hours also will send the HB and CT people into a dickyfit especially if this is done every other month.

 

I want to work for this company and do now have my foot in the door, I have even considered asking if I could work and not get payed so as not to let them down by refusing hours offered.

 

Do these people really want us to come off benefits? or do they want to keep us here so that their job is secure?

Talk about power mad......

[Bakatcha]

Hi Signmaker

You ask "am within my rights to ask for a copy of everything I've signed, from them? just to waste their time of course." Yes you are. If they kick up a fuss mention that it is a request made under the Freedom of Information Act.

They may play awkward and ask for a fee/charge of up to £10 and 2 forms of ID (A4e did this with me - cheeky little sods!). To get round this you can write to the DWP (who don't charge)- ask for all information held by them whether in computer or paper records and copies ofall forms which you have signed. Include the phrase - "include all such information held by xxxpimp who are acting as your data user in this matter". Mention that it is a FOI (Freedom of Information request). This will eventually produce a massive wodge of paper being delivered to your door (at some expense) and since you have asked for the pimp's records too they will have been put to some work without payment.

As a matter of course you should withdraw your consent (see consent.me for wording)

 

If you find a use for all the bumpf - let us know!

[kitty13]

Tell them that you are recording the appointment (even if you aren't! BUT YOU SHOULD BE!). DWP guidelines say that they must then ensure privacy - oddly enough not your privacy but the privacy of someone who might inadvertently be reorded by your device!

 

Oh aren't they so considerate of other people So my privacy is of no consideration to ingeus unless it breaches someone else's! I thought A4E were bad but at least there we had private booths.(never thought I'd be giving a compliment to those dim-witted people)

I think I'll give them an opportunity. If they don't agree to privacy then I'll say I'm recording.

[kitty13]

Just reading about the request for information and I was thinking of doing a request. Is the the DWP address the Belfast one?

[Bakatcha]

Hi Kitty13:

I sent mine to:

The Data Protection Officer, Department for Work and Pensions, Caxton House, Tothill St. London SW1H 9DA

The eventual response came from elsewhere but I guess that depends on where your local JCP is.

 

Correction: rather than Freedom of Information I headed my letter:

Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act 1998.

[kitty13]

Hi Kitty13:

I sent mine to:

The Data Protection Officer, Department for Work and Pensions, Caxton House, Tothill St. London SW1H 9DA

The eventual response came from elsewhere but I guess that depends on where your local JCP is.

 

Correction: rather than Freedom of Information I headed my letter:

Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act 1998.

 

Thanks bakatcha. I printed off the form I can fill in to request this information and shall post it to that address

[signmaker]

Hi Signmaker

Question, Does the pimp HAVE to report a canceled appointment to the JCp? Yes I think this is virtually automatic - it's a sort of knee jerk reaction - you're not there , therefore it's a FAILURE TO ATTEND - doesn't seem to matter how many times you told them you wouldn't be able to be there or how many times they agreed that was reasonable - just another stupidity of the system

Question, Do I have to continue signing on / attending work programme if I am sanctioned? Yes - you are their property - unless you wnat another sanction?

Question, On a joint claim does all monies get stopped?, is my other half going to be penalised for my so called "indiscression"? I don't know!

 

My Advice: Fight it - youi'll probably win and what have you got to lose?

 

 

I have tried this morning to ring a Mr Brockwell (Manager) the chap who supposedly sent my Doubt letter, at JCPlus Derby office numerous times this morning with out success, all I was getting was an engaged tone, (are they that busy?) so gave up and have written a letter along with a copy of e-mails sent regarding my entitlement to benefit.

will let you know the outcome.

[Bakatcha]

This from consent.me:

The DWP (Jobcentre) has confirmed there is no requirement to sign any Work Programme: 1. Actions Plan (aka Employment Plan) 2. Agreements “I would advise you that the signing of a Work Programme provider’s action plan and/or agreement form are entirely voluntary and no sanctions would be applied to any claimant who refused to sign them. http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/115323/response/308770/attach/2/FoI%201886%2031.08.12.pdf Source: DWP on 31st August 2012 The Child Poverty Action Group also suggests that Work Programme Sub-contractors do not have any Authority to issue Mandatory Activity Notifications (MANs): Sanction busting – appealing Work Programme sanctions http://www.cpag.org.uk/content/sanction-busting-appealing-work-programme-sanctions Action Plans can be considered MANs, if they comply with DWP Provider guidance on: Mandation https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wp-pg-chapter-3a.pdf Via: http://www.dwp.gov.uk/supplying-dwp/what-we-buy/welfare-to-work-services/provider-guidance/work-programme-provider.shtml consent.me.uk

The link to the Child Poverty Action Group leads to some really excellent info on fighting a sanction doubt.

"Must read" for anyone facing a doubt.

[signmaker]

Interesting reading Backatcha,

Just sent my FOI request to DWP, and have asked for paper copies.. should be interesting.

[Ktker]

Ok - just got in from another meeting with these idiots!

been with them for 7 months now and not had a sign of any help from them - their only expertise it would see it to try and keep sanctioning me! they have not been successful do far!

having read all the comments on this site I went in armed today and took no prisoners!

AD - I have to make an action plan with you which you are mandated to adhere to

ME - No I am not

AD - We work for the DWP and have been contracted to part of our contract is to give you an Action Plan

ME- I have a plan - its called a job seekers agreement, you are merely duplicating effort

AD- Our plan will be different from the job seekers agreement

ME - So you are saying that you will be overriding a legal contract that I have with JCP

AD - No - what you have with JCP is in order to get your benefits, this plan is to get you a job!

ME - And what will that plan consist of?

AD - I request that you 'cold call' potential employers as our research suggests that 80% of jobs are not advertised.

ME - I doubt that figure and I do not have the money for phone calls to potential employers

AD - we can make the calls for you if you fell you are unable to do it

ME- I am perfectly able to do it as i do have a tongue in my mouth and have not given you permission to use my personal data and share that data with 3rd parties. all I am saying is that I am not prepared to run up a phone bill that I cannot afford to pay.

AD - Then you are refusing to comply with the work programme

ME - if it means running up a phone bill then yes, I will not comply with your request

AD - so be it, I will make another appointment with you and I am informing the DWP right now that you will not comply

 

She then get the 'Failure to comply" form up on the screen and fills it out in front of me. She lies through her teeth on it saying that I am refusing to comply with the work programme as I

1) will not allow her to send my CV to prospective clients as I refused to give her permission to do so and

2) I would not accept any help from her to seek possible employment 'on spec'

 

I pointed out the flaws/lies that she had on the form and insisted that she change it - she at this point is furious. She changes the form to reflect what I actually said and told me to take it up with the JCP.

I was then asked to leave with 40p short of my expenses!

While waiting for my expenses I saw the advisor bringing up the 'failure to comply' form again - I presume to change it in order to get me sanctioned!!

 

I am baffled by the Work Programme - there are two companies i.e. JCP and Ingeus who are telling me different things about looking for work.

i.e. my JSA says that I have to

1) write to at least 1 employer a week - I do this

2) phone at least 0 employers a week - I do this

3) visit at least 0 employers a week - I do this

 

Therefore how then can Ingeus state that I am not complying?

I cannot see anywhere where they have the right to over rule a legal contract that I have with JCP.

 

I have decided to put in a 'formal' complaint against the advisor and to ask for another

I will put in a complaint about her and Ingeus to JCP

I will ask for a copy of all data held by them so I can see if the little [edit] has changed the form

 

Can anyone think of anything else I can do?

Edited September 10, 2012 by honeybee13
Removing pejorative remark.

[Bakatcha]

Hi Ktker

I fear your experience is not untypical. These places (not just Ignorus) seem to be becoming ever more desperate as they realise that they are nowhere near meeting their corporate and individual targets. They seem to want to resort to bullying tactics and seem to be "sanction factories".

As for your actions:

1.

I have decided to put in a 'formal' complaint against the advisor and to ask for another

Good but expect a lot of delaying tactics - and invitations to "discuss your issues" etc. etc. Complaints must cause them a bit of annoyance but the system is so skewed that in the long run you have to be very determined to get anywhere - other than you may get your "adviser" cahnged.

2.

I will put in a complaint about her and Ingeus to JCP

Again - good. But JCP will have a little private laugh at Pimpo's discomfort but will tell you "nothing to do with us - go through Pimpo's complaint procedure" (see point one above)

3.

I will ask for a copy of all data held by them so I can see if the little [edit] has changed the form

Make this a formal Subject Access Request. They may respond by asking for a fee(£10) and if they're particularly awkward, may demand to see 2 forms of ID. This can be circumvented by making the SAR to the DWP and specifying that it includes their data processor (Pimpo).

4.

Can anyone think of anything else I can do?

. Prepare yourself to defned the sanction doubt! I think this may be helpful from the Child Poverty Action Group:

Sanction busting – appealing Work Programme sanctions | Child Poverty Action Group

 

Good Luck - keep us informed.

Edited September 10, 2012 by honeybee13
Removing pejorative remark.

[Nystagmite]

I'm sure someone on here said that when you go to the work programme, your job seekers agreement doesn't matter anymore.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

I'm sure someone on here said that when you go to the work programme, your job seekers agreement doesn't matter anymore.

Whereas the Job Seekers Agreement remains in effect between the candidate and JCP, the candidate need only attend the WP until such time as i) they secure employment (and sign off - making the JSA null and void), or ii) JCP advises the candidate that they no longer need to attend.

[Ktker]

Another complaint is the matter of taking my son to these sessions with Ingeus - he is disabled (problems with his legs) and Ingeus has 30 stairs up to their office- these stairs are steep and even I have trouble managing going down them. During the summer I had to take him with me and he slipped coming down the stairs - luckily he did not injure himself but it got me questioning if he did have a fall and hurt himself would I be able to claim - are Ingeus insured for this sort of thing? They know he is disabled and they know I am a single parent with no childcare!

[caledfwlch]

Ok - just got in from another meeting with these idiots!

been with them for 7 months now and not had a sign of any help from them - their only expertise it would see it to try and keep sanctioning me! they have not been successful do far!

having read all the comments on this site I went in armed today and took no prisoners!

AD - I have to make an action plan with you which you are mandated to adhere to

ME - No I am not

AD - We work for the DWP and have been contracted to part of our contract is to give you an Action Plan

ME- I have a plan - its called a job seekers agreement, you are merely duplicating effort

AD- Our plan will be different from the job seekers agreement

ME - So you are saying that you will be overriding a legal contract that I have with JCP

AD - No - what you have with JCP is in order to get your benefits, this plan is to get you a job!

ME - And what will that plan consist of?

AD - I request that you 'cold call' potential employers as our research suggests that 80% of jobs are not advertised.

ME - I doubt that figure and I do not have the money for phone calls to potential employers

AD - we can make the calls for you if you fell you are unable to do it

ME- I am perfectly able to do it as i do have a tongue in my mouth and have not given you permission to use my personal data and share that data with 3rd parties. all I am saying is that I am not prepared to run up a phone bill that I cannot afford to pay.

AD - Then you are refusing to comply with the work programme

ME - if it means running up a phone bill then yes, I will not comply with your request

AD - so be it, I will make another appointment with you and I am informing the DWP right now that you will not comply

 

She then get the 'Failure to comply" form up on the screen and fills it out in front of me. She lies through her teeth on it saying that I am refusing to comply with the work programme as I

1) will not allow her to send my CV to prospective clients as I refused to give her permission to do so and

2) I would not accept any help from her to seek possible employment 'on spec'

 

I pointed out the flaws/lies that she had on the form and insisted that she change it - she at this point is furious. She changes the form to reflect what I actually said and told me to take it up with the JCP.

I was then asked to leave with 40p short of my expenses!

While waiting for my expenses I saw the advisor bringing up the 'failure to comply' form again - I presume to change it in order to get me sanctioned!!

 

I am baffled by the Work Programme - there are two companies i.e. JCP and Ingeus who are telling me different things about looking for work.

i.e. my JSA says that I have to

1) write to at least 1 employer a week - I do this

2) phone at least 0 employers a week - I do this

3) visit at least 0 employers a week - I do this

 

Therefore how then can Ingeus state that I am not complying?

I cannot see anywhere where they have the right to over rule a legal contract that I have with JCP.

 

I have decided to put in a 'formal' complaint against the advisor and to ask for another

I will put in a complaint about her and Ingeus to JCP

I will ask for a copy of all data held by them so I can see if the little [edit] has changed the form

 

Can anyone think of anything else I can do?

 

This is why you should covertly record all appointments. You would have them bang to rights then.

Edited September 10, 2012 by honeybee13
Removing pejorative remark.

[Ktker]

Hi Ktker

 

 

2. Again - good. But JCP will have a little private laugh at Pimpo's discomfort but will tell you "nothing to do with us - go through Pimpo's complaint procedure" (see point one above)

 

 

Are you sure about that - I remember putting in a complaint about The Weir Group and there was an account manager at JCP responsible for the contract with the provider.

[Ktker]

One last thing - Advisor was not happy with my 'job search activity' report and wanted the actual names of the people I was sending my CV to rather than just the company name. I refused to do this as I could not see how it made any difference to the actual job applications that I make. I asked her if it was because she wanted to phone them to check that I had actually applied or did she want to call them to see what the job was so she could put others forward for it - she said she had a team member who worked with employers to get unadvertised jobs and pass them onto others!!!! - Surely this is a conflict of interest?

[Bakatcha]

I'm sure.

JCP aren't interested. They will just refer you to Pimp's complaints procedure.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

One last thing - Advisor was not happy with my 'job search activity' report and wanted the actual names of the people I was sending my CV to rather than just the company name. I refused to do this as I could not see how it made any difference to the actual job applications that I make. I asked her if it was because she wanted to phone them to check that I had actually applied or did she want to call them to see what the job was so she could put others forward for it - she said she had a team member who worked with employers to get unadvertised jobs and pass them onto others!!!! - Surely this is a conflict of interest?

It is reasonable for an Administrative Clerk within a W2W organisation to ask for proof of any job application, such as email, but Data Protection Legislation may be contravened without the information being redacted.

However, given that the majority of employers warn candidates about canvassing in respect to an application, the candidate would experience no advantage by releasing confidential information to a W2W Clerk - and if they insist on telephoning the employer, may even lead to the application being unceremoniously rejected.

 

Perhaps the W2W organisation should try to build relationships with Business Managers, make some tentative effort towards telephoning employers on behalf of candidates with the intent of arranging a face to face interview. But, if they cant even arrange a face to face interview, let alone telephone interview, with an employer, then perhaps they should build up their own capacity to do so rather than relying on candidates to provide a list of names, addresses, telephone numbers and email addressed of employers.

[Ktker]

It is reasonable for an Administrative Clerk within a W2W organisation to ask for proof of any job application, such as email, but Data Protection Legislation may be contravened without the information being redacted.

However, given that the majority of employers warn candidates about canvassing in respect to an application, the candidate would experience no advantage by releasing confidential information to a W2W Clerk - and if they insist on telephoning the employer, may even lead to the application being unceremoniously rejected.

 

Perhaps the W2W organisation should try to build relationships with Business Managers, make some tentative effort towards telephoning employers on behalf of candidates with the intent of arranging a face to face interview. But, if they cant even arrange a face to face interview, let alone telephone interview, with an employer, then perhaps they should build up their own capacity to do so rather than relying on candidates to provide a list of names, addresses, telephone numbers and email addressed of employers.

 

 

I agree - the jobs I am applying for are mainly through recruitment agencies - there is a strict policy with them not to divulge information. I also want to increase my chances of getting the job by having as less competition as possible.

I have no objection to showing this information to JCP as I know they would not phone and have no financial incentive to work with potential employers (as it is not in their remit to do so).

However, I think it outrageous that a private company is relying on its clients to further its own agenda. It makes me wonder if there is another branch to Ingeus that acts as some sort of recruitment consultant and gets paid if they find a candidate.