Sacked on the spot without warning

[Scouse Paul]

Sorry IMO means In My Opinion

[gazhodge1981]

Thanks

 

it seems to be agreed on the thread that with the cheque they gave me with 4 weeks pay and one weeks holiday pay which took me up to 30th June, this was enough to put me over the 12 months and allow me to claim unfair dismissal.

 

I have put my paperwork in and it has been transferred to Manchester as this is my closes tribunal and they will get back to me within 10 days, so fingers crossed.

[gazhodge1981]

Hi all,

 

I have had an email today from the Tribunal service and they have accepted my claim I have a claim number and the hearing is set for the 16th Jan 2012.

I have a list of case management orders:-

By no later than

The following shall be done

27 September 2011

The claimant shall set out in writing what remedy the Tribunal is being asked to award. The claimant shall send a copy to the respondent. The claimant shall include any evidence and documentation supporting what is claimed and how it is calculated. The claimant shall also include information about what steps the claimant has taken to reduce any loss (including any earnings or benefits received from new employment).

11 October 2011

The claimant and the respondent shall send each other a list of any documents that they wish to refer to at the hearing or which are relevant to the case. They shall send each other a copy of any of these documents if requested to do so.

25 October 2011

The respondent shall then prepare sufficient copies of the documents for the hearing. The documents shall be fastened together in a file so as to open flat. The file of documents shall be indexed. The documents shall be in a logical order. All pages shall be numbered consecutively. The respondent shall provide the other parties with a copy of the file. Four copies of the file shall be provided to the Tribunal at the hearing (and not before).

8 November 2011

The claimant and the respondent shall prepare full written statements of the evidence they and their witnesses intend to give at the hearing. No additional witness evidence may be allowed at the hearing without permission of the Tribunal. The written statements shall have numbered paragraphs. The claimant and the respondent shall send the written statements of their witnesses to each other. Four copies of each written statement shall be provided for use by the Tribunal at the hearing (and not before).

9 January 2012

Where the claimant and the respondent are both professionally represented, the professional representatives shall prepare a draft statement of issues or questions that are to be decided by the Tribunal at the hearing. The draft statement of issues shall be subject to the Tribunal’s agreement at the commencement of the hearing.

 

The first deadline is 28 days from today.///

Would it be possible to get some advice regarding the first deadline please.

it asks for evidence and documentation supporting what is claimed and how it is calculated. I have not been able to get a job since being sacked and i have applications and letter i have sent and received, should i include these at this stage? Also in terms of loss of earning can i claim up to the hearing date or just the time from being sacked till the application being accepted?

Sorry for so many questions

 

Thank you in advance

[Scouse Paul]

I'm at work at the moment and using the forum on an IPhone is a pain so when I get in later I'll have all the answers you seek

[gazhodge1981]

Thanks Paul

[Scouse Paul]

To start with I would very strongly advice that you get in contact with the CAB if you are not in a Trade Union as they have expects in this kind of field.

 

I am not 100% sure on employment trubinal stuff as through all my years of being a union rep I've never had to deal with a tribunal case but my best guess on your question would be for you to send to the tribunal and your ex employer what you would like done be it compensation for loss of earnings from the time you were unfairly dismissed to now, you may also want to request that you are given your old job (the ET can award your old job back).

 

In terms of evidence I would provide a break down of what your earnings were when you were employed (include bonuses, shift allowance, any unsocial hours enhancements etc) and also mention about being deducted for annual leave you had taken which put you over your limit at that moment in time.

[honeybee13]

Hello guys. I haven't googled this, but I could. Is it called a Statement of Loss, from memory?

 

My best, HB

[gazhodge1981]

Thanks Paul, HB

 

Once I have all the figures put down i will post to see what everyone thinks

 

Thank you again for all your help so far.

[Ell-enn]

Gaz, check your house insurance to see if you are covered for legal advice and if so ring them straight away. A friend of mine got a solicitor through his insurance company who dealt with the whole tribunal claim.

[becky2585]

Thanks

 

it seems to be agreed on the thread that with the cheque they gave me with 4 weeks pay and one weeks holiday pay which took me up to 30th June, this was enough to put me over the 12 months and allow me to claim unfair dismissal.

 

I have put my paperwork in and it has been transferred to Manchester as this is my closes tribunal and they will get back to me within 10 days, so fingers crossed.

 

Are they legally represented? What was your final day of employment according to the company?

 

It seems you won't be over the 12 month mark from what I've read and if the other side is represented they may try and strike the claim out...

[honeybee13]

Hello becky. From memory, there was a long debate over whether Gaz had 12 months' service. If it's the thread I'm thinking of, the consensus was that it's just over 12 months.

 

My best, HB

[gazhodge1981]

Are they legally represented? What was your final day of employment according to the company?

 

It seems you won't be over the 12 month mark from what I've read and if the other side is represented they may try and strike the claim out...

 

Hi Becky,

 

in terms of 12 months service it seems with the PILON payment and the holiday paid up till the 30th June, this was enough to put me over the 12 months service and the claim has been accepted by the ET on this basis so far. (thanks HB your right it is this one lol)

 

Ell-enn, I have checked the insurance but i am not covered on it so it is up to me to defend myself.

[honeybee13]

Hello again, nice to hear from you. There will be help here for defending yourself, as I hope you know.

 

My best, HB

[gazhodge1981]

I know thanks HB, sorry not been on much been trying really hard to find another Job but will post my statement of loss and statement later tonight for some feedback

 

Is it best to post these out to them or take it to them as they are not that far away from me to do it???

I will post to the ET of course

[honeybee13]

Sorry Gaz, I don't know. Someone will, I'm sure.

 

How's the job search going?

 

My best, HB

[becky2585]

Hi Becky,

 

in terms of 12 months service it seems with the PILON payment and the holiday paid up till the 30th June, this was enough to put me over the 12 months service and the claim has been accepted by the ET on this basis so far. (thanks HB your right it is this one lol)

 

Ell-enn, I have checked the insurance but i am not covered on it so it is up to me to defend myself.

 

Hello,

Unfortunately I think you may face a problem if the Respondent seeks legal advice. Despite previous advice and the consensus on here, the only thing that can push you over the 12 month mark is statutory notice (not contractual notice), and the pay in lieu of notice doesn't affect it at all (unless the company gave you an EDT which pushed you over the 12 month mark in light of the above, which would be an unfortunate error on their part but very handy for you).

You don't have 12 months' service in law if you're working on statutory notice periods, but as they've accepted the claim already, I hope they don't pick up on the point as technically the Tribunal does not have jurisdiction to hear your unfair dismissal claim (if its standard unfair dismissal)!

I'd send them the Schedule of Loss by post... recorded delivery... then they can't deny they haven't received it!

[gazhodge1981]

Hello,

Unfortunately I think you may face a problem if the Respondent seeks legal advice. Despite previous advice and the consensus on here, the only thing that can push you over the 12 month mark is statutory notice (not contractual notice), and the pay in lieu of notice doesn't affect it at all (unless the company gave you an EDT which pushed you over the 12 month mark in light of the above, which would be an unfortunate error on their part but very handy for you).

You don't have 12 months' service in law if you're working on statutory notice periods, but as they've accepted the claim already, I hope they don't pick up on the point as technically the Tribunal does not have jurisdiction to hear your unfair dismissal claim (if its standard unfair dismissal)!

I'd send them the Schedule of Loss by post... recorded delivery... then they can't deny they haven't received it!

Hi Becky,

Thank you for the advice

In terms of Contract or terms in the contract, there is not one.

With them paying one months money plus paying holiday pay up past the 12 month period then it was consensus in the thread that without any contract then this had to be that one months notice period had to be right as without a contract how would we know what the notice period would be???

 

Thank you for your reply

[gazhodge1981]

Sorry Gaz, I don't know. Someone will, I'm sure.

 

How's the job search going?

 

My best, HB

 

It's going ok thanks HB, still looking but will get there i am sure, hows things with yourself?

[honeybee13]

I'm fine thank you , just concerned with trying to help you.

 

My best, HB

[gazhodge1981]

Hi,

 

On my schedule for loss can i claim from the date of dismissal to putting a claim in or from dismissal to date of hearing???

Also can any claim be made for damage to feelings (vento guidelines) or is that just for discrimination claims???

[becky2585]

Hi,

 

On my schedule for loss can i claim from the date of dismissal to putting a claim in or from dismissal to date of hearing???

Also can any claim be made for damage to feelings (vento guidelines) or is that just for discrimination claims???

 

Hi

 

You're right that vento only applies to discrimination cases. As you didn't have a contract though you could try for 2 to 4 weeks pay for a failure to provide written particulars.

 

If there's no contract then you'd use your statutory notice period of a week for each year of service. If they've paid you past the 12 months in lieu or written to you with a termination date after 12 months you could argue you have over 12 months service but I would stress that it's unlikely!

[gazhodge1981]

Thanks Becky,

 

I think the question is which way to go

When I put in the POC to the ET i put down that i was terminated on 31th May 2011, ( 28 days short of 12 months) but they had payed me 4 weeks pay (taxed) and one weeks holiday (only due on the 30th June 2011) and the claim was accepted. If i remember right back in the thread that Ell-enn had some case law to support this claim but i would have to go back and look. The thing that worries me now is that I go down the line and get to the hearing for them to turn around and say it should not have been accepted as there is no way there was 12 months service even if it was wrong what they did

what to do and where to go

[becky2585]

Does the Respondent have a legal representative? The Tribunal may not flag it up but I'm not really sure... A solicitor definitely would though!

 

Regarding the sol... Aim to claim loss of earnings from the date of dismissal for 26 weeks. They're usually happy to award this, subject to proof of mitigating your loss.

 

Could you let me know the name of the case that you're relying on and I'll check it?

[gazhodge1981]

The issue here is the Effective Date of Termination. Had the company terminated your employment and handed you a single wage slip with May's wages plus a further amount EQUIVALENT to a month's wages, making it clear that your termination was immediate and that the extra money was in compensation for not being given notice, then the EDT would be the date on which you were told to leave. In giving you two separate wage slips, two separate payments, and no explanatory letter to say that the June wage slip was anything other than a payment AS IF YOU WERE WORKING THE NOTICE PERIOD REQUIRED, then the employer have in essence given written confirmation that this was a normal notice payment (they have even deducted Tax & NI so there can be no claim that this was a payment of 'damages'. That would mean that the EDT becomes the last date for which you receive wages - ie at the end of June.

 

The relevant case law for this is Adams v GKN Sankey Ltd [1980] IRLR 416, EAT where the issue was addressed of what inference should be drawn where an employee is dismissed without notice and whether any payment given in lieu of notice should be taken as extending the length of service of the employee or otherwise. In the Sankey case, the Tribunal decided that the letter of termination made clear the effective date of dismissal, and the fact that the final payslip and associated deductions had been made using the date of dismissal rather than the later date as a base as the clincher. In your case, although the letter of termination may say that the DISMISSAL was immediate, they have provided sufficient contradictory evidence by way of a payslip stating that it represents a payment for JUNE - and that normal deductions have been made from that payment as if you would have been working.

 

This is at the core of your ET1 - that the employee had worked for [Company] since [Date] and having had his employment terminated unfairly with an Effective Date of Termination of [Date on which the June pay period expired], witnessed by the payslip handed to the Plaintiff clearly demonstrating that the employer had made allowance for the four week notice period which was understood to be the contractual entitlement.

 

The ET1 will then go on to detail how and why the dismissal was Unfair in that instant dismissal was not a sanction reasonably available to the employer for the reasons given for dismissal. The issues stated by the employer would be examples of misconduct where a warning and target for improvement would be appropriate.

 

The Plaintiff had never previously been warned that either timekeeping or performance were a matter of concern to the employer - indeed the references included in the evidence bundle are testament to the fact that the employer has never had anything other than praise.

 

The Plaintiff asserts that the employer dismissed the Plaintiff unfairly solely as it was convenient to do so in the belief that the requisite length of service had not been accrued to bring a claim for Unfair Dismissal and in order to create a vacancy for another. The Plaintiff has become aware that another person had been employed specifically for the Plaintiff's role before he had even learned of his dismissal.

 

NOTE - I am not necessarily saying that these SHOULD be the POCs or that they are the only POCs - they are merely examples off the top of my head (and don't forget that you will also need to include the fact that the employer never gave a written Statement of Employment Particulars as you will be claiming for that as well). Others will no doubt have suggestions for the POCs and these will no doubt be better with more time to consider them. This should though give you an idea. There are notes here http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/ResolvingWorkplaceDisputes/Employmenttribunals/DG_180301 which may also assist you.

 

I think this is the case Becky Adams v GKN Sankey Ltd [1980] IRLR 416 - the quote above is what Sidewinder wrote at post 121.

I forgot to say they issued me another pay slip as well as my may payslip

[gazhodge1981]

As for legal Representative i would thin k they would if it goes to the hearing as they don't have a HR department.