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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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Ebay - Been Conned and feel very very silly - any advice?!


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:roll:

 

What I'm on about, Kraken1, is your peculiar reluctance to justify, which I doubt that anybody understands.

 

The precedent of Davis v Sumner was about the prosecution of an individual whose usual business was not to sell cars, who supplied a car to a dealer.

 

What has this to do with ebay, where the sale of goods is obviously not so "purely private", which is to say that nobody else was involved but the buyer and the seller?

 

Do you deny that the false description of an odometer reading on eBay would be tantamount to a strict liability offence?

 

P.S.

 

Give it a rest you two!

 

No I shall not.

 

For as long as the moderators allow the insult, the deliberate defamation of my integrity to continue, I reserve the right to reply, in kind.

Edited by perplexity
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What then has this to do with ebaylink3.gif, where the sale of goods is obviously not so "purely private"

 

It's the definition of 'private' which is confusing you. There are two types of seller on ebay. One is a business seller who is subject to the full weight of consumer law. The other is an individual selling items they have owned and no longer want or need and is known as a 'private' seller. Whether or not the latter pays ebay, the local paper or the local auction house to sell their second-hand items they are still not considered to be acting as a business.

 

I suspect your real beef is with those who should admit to trading but pretend to be private sellers to avoid having to comply with consumer law. Successful prosecution of such individuals still doesn't mean I'd be considered a business if I sell my kid's bike.

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Do you deny that the false description of an odometer reading on eBay would be tantamount to a strict liability offence?

 

I have no idea but it is misrepresentation - the one part of SoGA which does apply to non-business sales.

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It's the definition of 'private' which is confusing you.

 

:roll:

 

To the contrary, it is abundantly clear to me that there is no such definition.

 

The term does not so much as exist as a part of the legislation, nor did eBay refer to one from elsewhere, the OFT for instance, so the members are left to argue amongst themselves about it.

 

Try to find the OFT's definition, online, or write to ask, and see how far you get with that.

 

 

There are two types of seller on ebay. One is a business seller who is subject to the full weight of consumer law. The other is an individual selling items they have owned and no longer want or need and is known as a 'private' seller. Whether or not the latter pays ebay, the local paper or the local auction house to sell their second-hand items they are still not considered to be acting as a business.

 

:!:

 

To be distinguished by who or what?

 

Do you mean to suggest that an eBay seller is entitled to excuse himself from the law?

 

Do you mean to suppose that eBay owns the authority to determine whether or not the law applies?

 

It's the OFT, not me, who complain that nobody knows, when they respond to the European Commissioner's consultations.

 

I have no idea but it is misrepresentation - the one part of SoGA which does apply to non-business sales.

 

Which would have to be a sale which is not an undertaking to a supply goods or services, otherwise than free of charge.

 

:lol:

 

P.S.

 

Just to be clear about it, the effect of the House of Lords ruling, Davies v. Sumner was that the supplier of a car could not be prosecuted for falsifying an odometer reading because the sale of cars was not his usual line of business.

 

As matter of opinion, does anybody here believe that an eBay seller of any sort should or would be allowed to get away with that?

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"The precedent of Davis v Sumner was about the prosecution of an individual whose usual business was not to sell cars, who supplied a car to a dealer.

 

What has this to do with ebay, where the sale of goods is obviously not so "purely private", which is to say that nobody else was involved but the buyer and the seller?"

 

Nothing. You asked for an example of a case where the courts refused to apply consumer protection legislation because of a seller's claim to be an individual. You'll recall you said you searched high and low and couldn't find one, ever. I supplied the names of the first few I came across. There are plenty of others.

 

"Do you deny that the false description of an odometer reading on eBay would be tantamount to a strict liability offence?"

 

Depends- is the seller acting in the course of a business? If it were me, selling a car to you then it wouldn't be. There'd be grounds for you to take action under other legislation, but not th consumer protection from unfair trading regs.

 

"Just to be clear about it, the effect of the House of Lords ruling, Davies v. Sumner was that the supplier of a car could not be prosecuted for falsifying an odometer reading because the sale of cars was not his usual line of business."

 

No, the seller of a car could not be prosecuted because he was acting as a consumer, he was not acting in the course of a business and therefore consumer protection legislation did not apply And to modernise it, if he were found to be a business then he wouldn't get prosecuted under the cputrs either because he would be selling to another business. Other regs would apply.

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Nothing. You asked for an example of a case where the courts refused to apply consumer protection legislation because of a seller's claim to be an individual.

 

No I did not.

 

The term I used was "the consumer protection legislation"; N.B. "the", the subject being the legislation to be construed according to s.210 of the Enterprise Act, defined be the relevant lists and orders.

 

Depends- is the seller acting in the course of a business? If it were me, selling a car to you then it wouldn't be. There'd be grounds for you to take action under other legislation, but not th Consumer Protection From Unfair Trading regs.

 

Balderdash.

 

The Regulations do not so much as refer to "the course of a business"; the term does not appear. The closest you get to that is the "ordinary course of business" with regard to the receipt of an advertisement for publication.

 

You may also care to note that it's an offence for the commercial practice of a trader to misleadingly fail to comply with a commitment contained in a code of conduct which the trader has undertaken to comply with. [s.5(3)]

 

“trader” means "any person who in relation to a commercial practice is acting for purposes relating to his business, and anyone acting in the name of or on behalf of a trader" and a business includes "any undertaking in the course of which goods or services are supplied otherwise than free of charge".

 

This is not an idea of mine. Those are the terms of the law.

 

All the sellers on eBay are of course consumers, consumers of the eBay service, the trader they act in the name of.

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"Originally Posted by Kraken1:

Depends- is the seller acting in the course of a business? If it were me, selling a car to you then it wouldn't be. There'd be grounds for you to take action under other legislation, but not th Consumer Protection From Unfair Trading regs.

 

Balderdash..."

 

Would anyone else like to correct the above and point out why Perpy is very very wrong? If you need a clue, shout.

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No takers? OK, then, if I must - the CPUTR specifically state that that they apply to transactions (either transactional decisions or contracts) between a business and a consumer.

 

Prohibition of unfair commercial practices

 

3.—(1) Unfair commercial practices are prohibited.

 

(2) Paragraphs (3) and (4) set out the circumstances when a commercial practice is unfair.

 

(3) A commercial practice is unfair if—

 

(a)it contravenes the requirements of professional diligence; and

 

(b)it materially distorts or is likely to materially distort the economic behaviour of the average consumer with regard to the product.

 

(4) A commercial practice is unfair if—

 

(a)it is a misleading action under the provisions of regulation 5;

 

(b)it is a misleading omission under the provisions of regulation 6;

 

©it is aggressive under the provisions of regulation 7; or

 

(d)it is listed in Schedule 1.

 

 

“commercial practice” means any act, omission, course of conduct, representation or commercial communication (including advertising and marketing) by a trader, which is directly connected with the promotion, sale or supply of a product to or from consumers, whether occurring before, during or after a commercial transaction (if any) in relation to a product;

 

consumer” means any individual who in relation to a commercial practice is acting for purposes which are outside his business;

 

“trader” means any person who in relation to a commercial practice is acting for purposes relating to his business, and anyone acting in the name of or on behalf of a trader;

 

So not so much 'balderdash' then. I suspect Perpy meant to say 'sorry, I was giving wrong advice again. I'll try not to in the future.'

 

On a tangent, the scottish law commission are currently consulting on whether to grant consumers a right of redress under the regs, currently they are not very useful to a consumer and would lead to a prosecution and conviction only, in practical terms a consumer cannot make use of them. the law commission is recommending that this be changed, along with introducing provisions for compensation for distress and inconvenience where a business engages in certain practices. This is probably a good idea.

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As I wrote before, with a link provided to legislation.gov.uk, the Regulations do not so much as refer to "the course of a business"; the term does not appear.

 

Instead of wasting the space, Kraken1 your time would be better spent on learning to read.

 

 

None the less, Sections 26 and 27 amend Part 8 of the Enterprise Act to include the Regulations, so a reference to a listed Directive must be construed in accordance with section 210 of the Enterprise Act, which means that a business includes — any undertaking in the course of which goods or services are supplied otherwise than free of charge. .

 

Are you trying to tell us that this is not what happens on eBay?

 

:roll:

 

P.S.

 

"It shall be the duty of every enforcement authority to enforce these Regulations.", so if you reckon that is not very useful to a consumer, I suggest to complain to them, not me. Part 8 of the Enterprise Act binds the Crown, so it's a duty, not an option, to enforce; a consumer may act against an errant enforcer.

Edited by perplexity
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