Naughty Jacobs Bailiff!

[karennol]

Hi All,

 

I had a council tax debt last year that was sent to Jacobs. The debt was for 2 separate years. They visited twice so I incurred charges for both accounts, 42.50 for both accounts despite only actually visiting twice. Therefore £85 was added to the bill.

 

I paid the council direct last Dec and the account is clear however they didn't tell Jacobs and 3 days ago I get an aggressive letter saying they were going to swipe my stuff if I didn't pay within 24hours (plus an extra £300 in fees of course). I rang the council and they said they would tell the bailiffs. Which they did. The bailiff called and said we still had to pay the original fees.

 

Today I came home and found another leter saying cough up by 5pm, just for the £85. This annoyed me cos it shouldn't have even been passed to an enforcement bailiff as the debt was paid. The letter also said he would remove goods in my absence! I am not worried about this because he has not been allowed access previously.

 

I rang him and said I would be happy to pay anything I owed but I want a breakdown of the charges in writing including dates and times of visits. He said he could tell me over the phone how the charges were accrued. I said I wanted them in writing, he refused and said he would be back on Monday and would be adding MORE charges and he hung up on me.

 

Sorry for the lengthy post.......what can I do about this? I know I am liable for the £85 if they have been genuinely applied to the account but surely I am allowed to ask for evidence without incurring additional charges. He was very rude too!

 

Thanks

 

Karen

[postggj]

send jacobs an email demanding a breakdown

 

complain to the council as they are responsable for his actions

[Tingy]

Bailiffs make me so cross. He is breaking the law left, right and centre here. For a start in order to gain entry to your house to collect their fees (not the original LO) they have to go back to court. I'm just in the process of calling a firm of bailiffs to account from when they scared me half to death three years ago over Counci Tax and Business Rates. So far I have reclaimed £500 off them and have just sent another invoice for over £200 for unlawful fees. There are then other issues which I can prove of fraud and other things which I will let you all know about once it's over as they read these threads.

 

My message - fight back and get any unlawful fees reclaimed.

[ploddertom]

You need to formally request a breakdown in fees from the Company, here's a sample letter adapt as you see fit and send initially by email with a copy in the post to them:

 

"From:

My Name

My Address

 

To:

Acme Bailiff Co

Bailiff House

 

Ref: Account No: 123456

 

Dear Sir

 

With reference to the above account, Can you please provide me with a breakdown of the charges.

 

This includes:

a - the time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee.

b - the reason for the fee.

c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged.

d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were Certificated at.

e - the date of the Certification.

 

This is not a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10. You are obliged to provide this information.

 

I require this information within 14 days.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Ripped off customer"

 

If they visited twice and had both accounts at that time they can only charge one set of Visit Fees in total £42-50, nothing more. Have you checked the status of your account with the Council to make sure it is clear. If so then in reality the Bailiff can go & play with his train set on the East Coast Mainline, he cannot use the LO to enforce for his fees and if you refuse to pay he has to take you before the Small Claims Court for them, many refuse to do this as they have to swear their fees are correct.

 

The Council are 100% liable for their contractors actions and must be made aware of what they are doing. The Council CEO is a good person to start with. I'd be nearly inclined to tell him to do one because of his attitude as you found his demeanour rude and abusive and think that worth £42-50 of anyones hard earned.

 

PT

[Thegreenpimpernel]

"For a start in order to gain entry to your house to collect their fees (not the original LO) they have to go back to court."

 

With regards to council tax, i believe there is NO right of forced entry where no levy (on goods inside) is in place.

 

The forced entry 'thing' applies to criminal fines, and i believe TT posted a link that indicated this had been done only 28? times in a year. Put that in the context of £1.5 BILLION in outstanding court fines and you'd be better off worrying about being hit by lightning.

[karennol]

Thaanks for all of your brilliant replies....so to clarify the main points

 

 

1. He cant come in cos there is no possession order in place.
   
2. He can only charge me £42.50 even though there are 2 accounts because he (allegedly) visited twice.
   
3. The liability order was grant to the council for the outstanding bill and does not apply to the fees.
   
4. He shouldn't be attempting to blag me into pating inflated fees using the threat of the council's liability order
   
5. HE has more chance of getting hit by lightening then getting me to pay his spurrious fees!
   

I can feel a letter coming on!!!! Am I right?

 

Thanks again xxx

[ploddertom]

Now just let me think about the answers to your questions above:

 

1 - he has to gain peaceful entry

2 - he can visit as many he times as he likes but he can only charge for 2

3 - that is correct it is 2 separate issues but you must check your account status and ask specifically who is responsible for paying his fees

4 - he can try hoping you don't know, he will be mightily pi**ed when finds out you know

5 - pray for lightning

 

PT

[wonkeydonkey]

1. They cannot ride on the back of a liabilty order that is seen to be "satisfied" for there fees alone.

2. Coming after you for their fees alone they would first of all have to go to Court and try to get judgment.

3. Get that letter asking for a breakdown sent asap and make sure you send it recorded/signed for

4. Advise the Council in writing you are still being harassed by their bailiff and that they are liable for his actions.

5. PT ...I love that addition.....

[Tingy]

Thaanks for all of your brilliant replies....so to clarify the main points

 

 

1. He cant come in cos there is no possession order in place.
   
2. He can only charge me £42.50 even though there are 2 accounts because he (allegedly) visited twice.
   
3. The liability order was grant to the council for the outstanding bill and does not apply to the fees.
   
4. He shouldn't be attempting to blag me into pating inflated fees using the threat of the council's liability order
   
5. HE has more chance of getting hit by lightening then getting me to pay his spurrious fees!
   

I can feel a letter coming on!!!! Am I right?

 

Thanks again xxx

 

Hi Karnennol,

 

Just to be absolutely 100% clear as I'm not sure from your point two, for each account they can charge for two visits, £24.50 for Visit 1 and £18 for Visit 2. If he's only been twice for the same account it would be £42.50. If he's made the first visit for Account 1 then Account 2 it would be £49.00. Otherwise absolutely correct. Get proof of his visits before paying them. They should leave you with a fair amount of paperwork - you wouldn't miss it. If you didn't get this, they didn't visit.

 

If he comes again ask what debt he's come to collect (debt as opposed to fees). If there isn't one (which there isn't) tell him he cannot visit when there's no debt to collect. If he goes on about his fees, say you're awaiting a detailed breakdown in the form of a written invoice delivered through the mail, then you will work out what is legal and pay that amount (nothing will be legal by the time we've finsihed with it so that amount will be £0.00). Finally remind him he's not allowed to charge for this visit as he's not collecting any debt. Bye bye!

[karennol]

Hi Karnennol,

 

Just to be absolutely 100% clear as I'm not sure from your point two, for each account they can charge for two visits, £24.50 for Visit 1 and £18 for Visit 2. If he's only been twice for the same account it would be £42.50. If he's made the first visit for Account 1 then Account 2 it would be £49.00. Otherwise absolutely correct.

 

Hiya,

 

He only visited twice in total delivering letters for both accounts at the same time. I have found some conflicting info on this though. Some websites say that he can charge me £85 if there are 2 visits for 2 accounts.

 

I have written a 3 side letter of complaint which I am emailing on Monday! I quite hope he does come back so that I can tell him quite firmly to sod off back to the rock he crawled from under!

 

 

Thanks

 

Karen

[Tingy]

For each liability order where no levy is made, £24.50 for the first or only visit and £18 for a second visit can be charged. Despite any further visits, the bailiff is only permitted to charge a maximum of 2 separate visits.

-ie- they can only charge for one LO per visit. As he's decided to cover both LO's in one visit each time he can only charge one lot of £24.50 and one of £18.00 = £42.50 owed.

 

Put in basic terms how many visits did he make? Two

 

So how many visits can he charge for? Two (it's impossible to make two visits 4!)

[SURFBOY]

"I have written a 3 side letter of complaint which I am emailing on Monday! I quite hope he does come back so that I can tell him quite firmly to sod off back to the rock he crawled from under! :wink:"

Hi, if you can, make sure you record what he says when he returns, or even video him.

[karennol]

For each liability order where no levy is made, £24.50 for the first or only visit and £18 for a second visit can be charged. Despite any further visits, the bailiff is only permitted to charge a maximum of 2 separate visits.

-ie- they can only charge for one LO per visit. As he's decided to cover both LO's in one visit each time he can only charge one lot of £24.50 and one of £18.00 = £42.50 owed.

 

 

Put in basic terms how many visits did he make? Two

 

So how many visits can he charge for? Two (it's impossible to make two visits 4!)

 

 

Its almost magical the way they try to inflate the charges! Seriously though...who would be a bailiff? Thanks for your reply.

[hallowitch]

this may help with your letter to Jacobs they tried this on with my daughter 2 liability orders 2 1st &2nd visit fees and 2 levy &walking possession fees

and if they hadn't got greedy and charged her a van fee of £110 on a debt that she had never missed a payment i wouldn't have found this wonderful site

 

Detailed Assessment Judgment of Throssell v Leeds City Council where the District Judge ruled as follows:

“Turning to the taxation it seems to me that notwithstanding the fact that there were three liability orders but one visit was made by one bailiff and the maximum that the Council’s reasonable charges can be is the result of applying the formula contained in Schedule 5 paragraph 2 (1) (b) of the Regulations”

 

they cannot charge so many fees if only one visit is made

[tomtubby]

Hi All,

 

I had a council tax debt last year that was sent to Jacobs. The debt was for 2 separate years. They visited twice so I incurred charges for both accounts, 42.50 for both accounts despite only actually visiting twice. Therefore £85 was added to the bill.

 

I paid the council direct last Dec and the account is clear however they didn't tell Jacobs and 3 days ago I get an aggressive letter saying they were going to swipe my stuff if I didn't pay within 24hours (plus an extra £300 in fees of course). I rang the council and they said they would tell the bailiffs. Which they did. The bailiff called and said we still had to pay the original fees.

 

Today I came home and found another leter saying cough up by 5pm, just for the £85. This annoyed me cos it shouldn't have even been passed to an enforcement bailiff as the debt was paid. The letter also said he would remove goods in my absence! I am not worried about this because he has not been allowed access previously.

 

I rang him and said I would be happy to pay anything I owed but I want a breakdown of the charges in writing including dates and times of visits. He said he could tell me over the phone how the charges were accrued. I said I wanted them in writing, he refused and said he would be back on Monday and would be adding MORE charges and he hung up on me.

 

Sorry for the lengthy post.......what can I do about this? I know I am liable for the £85 if they have been genuinely applied to the account but surely I am allowed to ask for evidence without incurring additional charges. He was very rude too!

 

Thanks

 

Karen

 

Sorry, to correct a few replies on here but with council tax collection, bailiff fees must be deducted FIRST from any payment made. That is always the danger with paying the coucil direct. It is CLEAR that you owe a total sum of £42.50.

 

This is because, you received an initial visit before paying the council direct and the charge for this is £24.50 for "attending to levy" (where no levy was made). A further 2nd such visit was made where the bailiff is entitled to charge a second fee of £18.00 making a total of £42.50.

 

A bailiff CANNOT charge "multiple charges" for enforcing more than one Liability order at the same time. This has been the subject of a Detailed Assessment application to court which is detailed by Hallowitch. In addition, there has been a recent critical report from the Local Government Ombudsman against Rossendales bailiffs and Rossendale Council where the matter of multiple charges for more than one Liability Order was also stated as being wrong.

[ploddertom]

Sorry, to correct a few replies on here but with council tax collection, bailiff fees must be deducted FIRST from any payment made. That is always the danger with paying the coucil direct. It is CLEAR that you owe a total sum of £42.50.

 

Whilst I do not dispute this at all, what is the position with those Councils who insist when all is paid that any Bailiff fees then have to be paid direct to their Company? It appears again that not everyone follows the same procedure and it muddies the waters somewhat.

 

This is because, you received an initial visit before paying the council direct and the charge for this is £24.50 for "attending to levy" (where no levy was made). A further 2nd such visit was made where the bailiff is entitled to charge a second fee of £18.00 making a total of £42.50.

 

A bailiff CANNOT charge "multiple charges" for enforcing more than one Liability order at the same time. This has been the subject of a Detailed Assessment application to court which is detailed by Hallowitch. In addition, there has been a recent critical report from the Local Government Ombudsman against Rossendales bailiffs and Rossendale Council where the matter of multiple charges for more than one Liability Order was also stated as being wrong.

 

PT

[Thegreenpimpernel]

My opinion, is that TT is obviously 100% correct, unless the council mess things up and cancel / satisfy the LO without the fees being covered.

So rare i wouldn't count on it at all.

 

If any fees are legitimately accrued before the LO and those legit fees are cleared in full, then the LO remains in force even if there is only £1 outstanding.

 

For example:

 

If a levy is secured on a LO of £1000 before the LO is cleared in full, you would then owe about £1055 as of the moment of the levy visit.

 

If you were to pay £1054 after that visit, even the same day, they could and would legitimately return and apply a van fee of say £300 because of the £1 outstanding!

 

You would then owe £301 as of that visit.

 

If you were dumb enough to only pay £300 the next day, they can return again and add another £300 van fee!!! (if they remove goods).

 

 

That's why i always advise paying any small disputed sum to cancel all future action, then initiate action to recover the overpayment.

[Tingy]

Thank you TT and HW.

 

Exactly as I said in Post 11. I'm not having a go at anyone here (honestly!) but the law is very clear - just read it.

[tomtubby]

PT

 

Where the problem arises is that when a person speaks to (for instance) Birmingham City Council they are "assuming" that the call is being answered by BCC when, in reality it is really being answered by a person who works for a "back office" provider by the name of CAPITA. As many people on here know, BCC use the services of a bailiff company called EQUITA.....and who owns Equita???? Yep....CAPITA.

 

Many councils do not know the correct position and therefore they provide the WRONG advice.

[Tingy]

I agree, Capita seem to be taking over all admin tasks in this country! However, if that is the case, should not the council refer you to Capita rather than palm you off with what they think?

[brassnecked]

I agree, Capita seem to be taking over all admin tasks in this country! However, if that is the case, should not the council refer you to Capita rather than palm you off with what they think?

 

Perhaps then in any potential action for excessive fees Capita should be a joint defendant, along with the Council and Equita, as they must therefore be joint and severally liable for their advice as the back office provider.