B2B debt CCJ for £3260 - HCEO huge fees

[rattlywelshboy]

I have had a letter from Sherforce which includes their fees which are massive, about 2K. I have had a copy of the regulations that they say is related to certain fees and most of their fees are under "section 12 Miscellanious" does anyone know what this is. Also they are charging me for services that they have not carried out.

 

Please help.

[ploddertom]

May I ask what the original debt was for & how long ago it was incurred?

 

Sherforce are well known for adding the majority of their fees before the Officer even leaves. The majority of their fees can challenged. The same applies as if it was a Bailiff attending, he has to gain peaceful entry - he no doubt has left you a Form 55 claiming he has seized all your goods, but if he has not gained access then he does not know what you have - all the Rolexes in the kitchen, gold ingots under the mattress etc. If this is for a personal debt then he cannot force entry unless he has gained peaceful entry previously, if however you have a detached garage or outbulidings he is allowed to force entry to those if he believes there are goods inside to satisfy the debt.

 

Tell us a bit more & we'll see what we can do for you.

 

PT

[fork-it]

fees are under "section 12 Miscellanious" does anyone know what this is. Also they are charging me for services that they have not carried out.

 

The law setting the fees chargeable by a High Court Enforcement Officer (HCEO) for collecting unpaid debts is Schedule 3 of Regulation 13 of The High Court Enforcement Officers Regulations 2004 and provides 2.5% of the amount collected plus a fixed £2.50 on top.

 

Its common practice for HCEOs to charge additional fees according to a list and pretend the debtor is liable to pay them. This is not true and you simply dont have the pay them at all.

 

There is the old HCEO's chestnut of adding fees described as "misc" or "miscellaneous". He is trying to use Section 12 of Schedule 3 of the regulations which actually reads:

 

"For any matter not otherwise provided for, such sum as a Master, district judge or costs judge may allow upon application."

This is essentially a blank cheque clause because it enables bailiffs to load his fees ad-infinitum then pretend an application has already been made to a Master or a district judge who has allowed the costs. HCEOs tend to do this retrospectively by charging as much as they think they can get away with then leave it up to you to challenge it afterwards, which is almost impossible to reclaim once you have paid it.

 

In short, do not pay it and its a civil dispute between you and the HCEO. Additionally, you do not have to let them into your property so keep the chain on the door at all times and you are not obligated to speak with him.

 

If a bailiff says he has already obtained a court order for the section 12 misc costs when no such order exists then he commits an offence under Section 40(1)(d) of the Administration of Justice Act 1970

 

 

If a bailiff charges for work he hasnt done then he commits an offence under Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006. http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200607/ldhansrd/text/70420w0001.htm see under Crime Fraud

[wonkeydonkey]

Ahhh the regulation Part C fee 12 .. this species is more commonly known as the "invent it clause"

 You can apply for a "detailed fee assessment" CPR 8 they will possibly tell you they will do this on your behalf and you will later find they have applied for a "summary assessment" (CPR23)

 They will tell you initially that fees that have been subject to previous applications have been allowed, what of course they will not tell you is many of these fees have also be disallowed!!

 Do please research posts made by honeyb "re: urgent advice needed for detailed fee assessment hearing" it is a good indication of Sherforce workings.

 

WD

 

[fork-it]

Just easier to tell the HCEO the fees will not be paid. Its then up to the HCEO to start a civil claim and he lays himself wide open to committing an offence under Section 2 of the Fraud Act, if the |Judge makes a finding of fact then the problem for the HCEO has only started.

[rattlywelshboy]

The debt is a business debt of £3260 which went to a county court 

I was ordered to pay £150.00 per month (starting 16th November 2010).

On 20 Jan 2011 I received a phone call from Sherforce saying that they want £5200 immediately as I have not paid my debt to the original creditor.

I called the original creditors collection dept and they advised me that they had not received my cheque for Nov, Dec & Jan totalling £450.00.

I checked the account and they were correct, I paid the creditor over the phone straight away the £450.00 arrears which they took happily and advised that I would make all future payments by debit card as I didnt want to chance a cheque in the post again.

I got a call a couple of days later from sherforce saying that I should only deal with them and that I still owe them £5200 less the £450.00 paid to the creditor and that also they had a team of men on their way to my premises to seize all my goods.

I waited all day but no one arrived. I left it about a week and then called the creditor to see what the state of play was and that Sherforce were being unreasonable with their fees.

I received a letter put under my door from sherforce saying that a High Court Officer attended my premises and wanted me to call them. When I called them they said that all their fees were agreed by law and that every time they send a van to my premises it will cost me £720.00.

I received the breakdown and most of the fees are under misc section 12, and alot of the other fees such as seizure fees and valuation fees which to date has not been done.

I have asked them how they can charge fees for work not done and they jusrt say it's the law and I have to pay them. My office is a serviced office and I don't carry stock so all they could take are catalogues and price lists.

Sorry if I seem to go on a bit but they are being very annoying to say the least, I didn't even know that the CCJ had been transferred to the High Court's.

[ploddertom]

Is the Writ to you personally or in your company name?

 

PT

[rattlywelshboy]

Below is the breakdown that they have sent me to pay, bearing in mind that all that has happened so far is they have put a letter under my door asking me to call them and also ring me about 10 times.

Also they are telling me that I have to pay all of these costs as it's the law.

 

 Our Ref : 23***** Claimant’s Reference : KW*****************

 

VAT Registration Number: 945 7915 77

STATEMENT OF SHERFORCE FEES

 

In the Matter of: COMPANY A vs COMPANY B

Breakdown of Judgment Debt, Costs and

Interest Amount £

 

Judgment Debt £3034.58

Judgment Costs £188.00

Execution Costs – as provided under the Writ £101.75

Interest at 8% pa £48.33

PLUS Sherforce Charges As Detailed Below* £2483.74

LESS any monies received by Sherforce 0.00

LESS any credits notified to Sherforce £450.00

OUTSTANDING AMOUNT DUE

AS AT TODAY’S DATE £5406.40

*Fees to be deducted as provided under the High Court Writ of Fifa and payable to the Authorised Enforcement Officer as provided under the High Court Enforcement Officer Regulations 2004,

Schedule 3 Relevant Regulation Fee £

Percentage of Amount Recovered HCEO Regulation Part A Fee 1 £86.82

Mileage Incurred HCEO Regulation Part A Fee 2 £25.23

Seizure Fee HCEO Regulation Part A Fee 3 £2.00

Making Enquiries Or Dealing With Claims for Rent or To the Goods

HCEO Regulation Part A Fee 4 £4.00

Walking Possession Fee – calculated at ￡3.00 on day of signing Walking Possession Agreement and 25p per day thereafter

HCEO Regulation Part A Fee 5 (1) and (2) 6.25

Attending With A View To Remove Goods For Sale HCEO Regulation Part A Fee 5 (3) £720.00

Valuation Fee HCEO Regulation Part A Fee 6(2) (b) £175.48

Any Other Fee For A Duty Otherwise Not Provided For HCEO Regulation Part C Fee 12

Initial Attendance Fee HCEO Regulation Part C Fee 12 £175.00

Financial Management Fee HCEO Regulation Part C Fee 12 £160.00

Administration Fee HCEO Regulation Part C Fee 12 £300.00

Removal Contractor Fee HCEO Regulation Part C Fee 12 £180.00

Attendance to Remove Administration Fee HCEO Regulation Part C Fee 12 £175.00

Payment Plan Mgmt Fee HCEO Regulation Part C Fee 12 £60.00

 

Subtotal of Sherforce Fees £2069.78

VAT on Sherforce Fees £413.96

Total of Sherforce Fees inclusive of VAT £2483.74

 If you need any more details please let me know.

[ploddertom]

Below is the breakdown that they have sent me to pay, bearing in mind that all that has happened so far is they have put a letter under my door asking me to call them and also ring me about 10 times. Also they are telling me that I have to pay all of these costs as it's the law. They like to think they are

 

Our Ref : 23*****

Claimant’s Reference : KW*****************VAT Registration Number: 945 7915 77

STATEMENT OF SHERFORCE FEES

In the Matter of: COMPANY A vs COMPANY B

Breakdown of Judgment Debt, Costs and

Interest Amount £

Judgment Debt £3034.58

Judgment Costs £188.00

Execution Costs – as provided under the Writ £101.75

Interest at 8% pa £48.33

PLUS Sherforce Charges As Detailed Below* £2483.74

any monies received by Sherforce 0.00

any credits notified to Sherforce £450.00

OUTSTANDING AMOUNT DUE

AS AT TODAY’S DATE

£5406.40

*Fees to be deducted as provided under the

High Court Writ of Fifa and payable to the

Authorised Enforcement Officer as provided

under the High Court Enforcement Officer

Regulations 2004, Schedule 3

Relevant Regulation Fee £

Percentage of Amount Recovered HCEO Regulation Part A Fee 1 £86.82 - needs to be challenged as nothing yet recovered

Mileage Incurred HCEO Regulation Part A Fee 2 £25.23 - probably OK

Seizure Fee HCEO Regulation Part A Fee 3 £2.00 - challenge, what have they seized

Making Enquiries Or Dealing With Claims for Rent

or To the Goods

HCEO Regulation Part A Fee 4 £4.00 - challenge, what enquiries have they made

Walking Possession Fee – calculated at ￡3.00 on

day of signing Walking Possession Agreement and

25p per day thereafter

HCEO Regulation Part A Fee 5 (1)

and (2)

6.25 - challenge, have you signed any Notice of seizure they have produced and what goods have they seized

Attending With A View To Remove Goods For Sale HCEO Regulation Part A Fee 5 (3) £720.00 - challenge, Fee 5 (3) states:

(3) For -

(a) the removal of goods;

(b) the storage of goods which have been removed; and

© where animals have been seized, their upkeep while in the custody of the enforcement officer, whether before or after removal - what have they done

Valuation Fee HCEO Regulation Part A Fee 6(2)

(b)

£175.48 - challenge, what have they valued

Any Other Fee For A Duty Otherwise Not

Provided For

HCEO Regulation Part C Fee

12

Initial Attendance Fee HCEO Regulation Part C Fee 12 £175.00

Financial Management Fee HCEO Regulation Part C Fee 12 £160.00

Administration Fee HCEO Regulation Part C Fee 12 £300.00

Removal Contractor Fee HCEO Regulation Part C Fee 12 £180.00 - where is the proof of this

Attendance to Remove Administration Fee HCEO Regulation Part C Fee 12 £175.00

Payment Plan Mgmt Fee HCEO Regulation Part C Fee 12 £60.00

For all the above ask which Judge allowed these fees in your case, at what Court and the date it was done

Subtotal of Sherforce Fees £2069.78

VAT on Sherforce Fees £413.96 - unfortunately they are allowed to charge this

Total of Sherforce Fees inclusive of VAT £2483.74

 

If you need any more details please let me know.

 

PT

[Thegreenpimpernel]

"VAT on Sherforce Fees £413.96 - unfortunately they are allowed to charge this"

 

But remember to reduce it inline with the disallowed fees!!!!

[fork-it]

To be honest, I wouldnt let this bother you, they have well & truly screwed you over with the fees. If in doubt walk away.

[ploddertom]

"VAT on Sherforce Fees £413.96 - unfortunately they are allowed to charge this"

 

But remember to reduce it inline with the disallowed fees!!!!

 

Sorry meant they were allowed to charge VAT and not that particular figure.

 

PT

[rattlywelshboy]

Thanks, I will contact sherforce and ask for the details, even though I know that they haven't done the work.

ALso as I have already paid the claimant £450 after they have asked for the services of sherforce,

am I legally liable for their fees if they do not levy any goods and collect the money?

[fork-it]

Wouldnt bother contacting them at all. let them contact you.

[rattlywelshboy]

I contacted the creditor to advise that I wanted to resume the original CCJ agreement of £150.00 and for them to cancel the HCEO Writ,

they said that The HCEO office have advised them that if they cancel the writ that they would be liable for the fees they have charged me.

I emailed the creditor the fees that they tried to charge me and that they had done none of the work they were charging for and that she should only have to pay an abortive fee of about £70 + VAT and not any of the huge fees they wanted.

I also emailed sherforce this and told them that i planned on taking the matter further if they still tried to charge me for things that were not done.

Good news is that I have had conformation from the creditor that they have cancelled the writ and agreed the original payment plan.

I did however get a call from the HCEO advising that I had not made a payment to them and that they will turn up at my premises within 24 hrs to collect. I had great pleasure in telling him where to go, he said that he will look into the so called cancelation info and call me back with 20 mins. Still no call from them.

I would like to thank everyone who has given their view and thoughts about my problem and whilst I have been lucky enough to not have paid them a penny and live to tell the tail, I know that many others have not and there will probably be many more unfortunate people who will cross the path of a HCEO.

Thanks All.

 

Rattlywelshboy

[wonkeydonkey]

well done ....big pat on the back well deserved.

[ohitsonlyme]

How do they contiunue to get away with this

It has been some time since I have been on this forum and this is a bit like groundhog day levys not made unlawful charges etc etc

 

How can we stop this farce??

onlyme

[ploddertom]

Nice to hear you again ohitsonlyme,

the problem is that the few that come here are very much in the minority - the others who do not know any different are the ones we must feel sorry for as they appear to be getting ripped off at every opportunity.

Until the law is changed - hopefully for the better - and there again us mere mortals will have no say, nothing will change.

Even a change in the law will no doubt be in favour of the enforcement companies and no doubt give them more power to add more extraneous charges on. How any Company can get away with charging fees before they even leave the office beggars belief.

PT

[wonkeydonkey]

Tut Tut PT.... surely these honest enforcement officers return to the office after "doing the deed" and say "Oh dear we have charged this poor soul for work we have not done...I will send an apologetic refund straightaway":puke:

[ploddertom]

Half of them couldn't even organise the proverbial drinking party at the brewery. Having said that they'd probably just levied on the pumps.

 

PT

[Speedysix]

Surely the best way to avoid the fees is to pay the debt/judgment/court order?

For every horror story of someone on the receiving end of an HCEO there are many more people who are left with no choice but to use the courts to recover what is owed to them.

After 8 months of being fobbed off by my last employer for wages he owes me (Flash Incentives) the court is the last resort and given the aggro they have put me and others through, any action the HCEO company takes is well deserved in my book.

[ploddertom]

I agree with what you say but in the majority of these cases and with those of Southern Water in particular, the first the debtor knows of any problem is when the HCEO knocks on the door.

Whose fault is it that no documentation has ever been received - including the original bill never mind the Court docs.

I don't doubt those that come here looking for help & advice is a very small minority but in every case so far the debtor has gained Set Aside and SW & SF have been panned by the Judges for their actions & charges.

[ploddertom]

yes sherforce like other known enfocement companys just think they can bully and add fees that are beyond imagination...and yes it has caused many arguments amongst households that i no of...........it has made certain people in my household very ill since it happend........ i would just like to no if we can fight the charges and how to go about doing it if possible as its getting to much for us

thanks jaffro:sad:

 

It will pay you to start your own thread as each situation is different http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=168 already I can see you are in better position without the threat of further visits but there is still so much more you can do.

 

PT

[jaffro]

will do

jaffro