Benefit help if leaving employment voluntary?

[diesel-bo]

Hi,

Last week I was told the company I worked for had gone into administration by one of its directors, he also told us that the other director in the company had secured some investment and was seeing the administrators at the end of the week with propossels for him to take over the company. Ten minutes after this meeting the other director (the one wishing to buy the company) can in and had one to one meetings with all of us. In my meeting he told me the things I'd be required to to if I worked for him, which was different from the job I do now, whereas I would be doing more.

When going into work today we were met by the director who informed us of the administration and had a brief meeting, in this meeting he informed us the director who is hoping to take over the company will be in at some point today as he was signing papers this morning, we were told that he didn't want any confrontation about what has happened to the company! :mad2:I'm furious as I have questions to ask and because he doesn't want any confrontation I can't seek answers to the questons I have!! The reason I have questions is as when we had our one to ones with him he basically told everyone something different.....The whole situation absolutley stinks and I know once we all roll over and sing to his tune he is going at dramatically change our work load, job descriptions, working hours ect. I've worked there for 22 year and I'm seriously considering walking away with nothing, so I suppose I'm posting on here to find out if I walked away would I be entitled to and benefits? I am married with 2 children at school age.

Thanks in advance.

[Aviva]

We need more information:

 

Does your partner work? What is their income?

 

It is likely that you would get a sanction for voluntarily leaving work if you applied for JSA. The sanctions can be up to 26 weeks I think.

[diesel-bo]

Hi,

Thanks for replying, no my partner doesn't work, due to having a young one not at school yet. Therefore no other income other than my wage and child tax credit and working tax credit.

What does a sanction mean? And does this apply to housing benefit and council tax benefit also?

I hope you'll understand that this is my last option as everything they are doing is to help themselves out of the fine mess they've got themselves into and not once have they thought about us workers...although as I understand this is all above the law!! Ridiculous protect the directors but not the employees!!

Also just to add as I said I've worked there since leaving school 22 years ago and this is not me shying away from working this is just me trying to see if I could see my family right if this situaton gets any worse.

Thanks again.

[diesel-bo]

Hi,

Sorry to push but is there anyone able to answer my above questions? I want to be full armed with all the knowledge i can be as I feel things may just come to a head this afternoon!

Thanks.

[Nystagmite]

A sanction means they won't pay you.

[diesel-bo]

So does this mean we won't get housing benefit or council tax benefit either? And also am I to assume that I won't get anything off them to keep my wife or children?

Thanks.

[PriorityOne]

Don't be hasty..... 22 years is a long time to work somewhere. He may very well have new things in store for you all but if you need time off to think about it, just go sick instead and give yourself time to mull things over.

 

[diesel-bo]

I know, the whole thing is just so underhand,and I want no part in it, at this present moment some on my colleagues have been told to 'hide' assets (or things they haven't paid for) around the factory!!! There is that many loopholes in this business that they cant flaunt and I really want out....sick would mean no pay, and no means of living. This whole situation has got me sick and I've not slept for days trying to work out what to do.

[PriorityOne]

I know, the whole thing is just so underhand,and I want no part in it, at this present moment some on my colleagues have been told to 'hide' assets (or things they haven't paid for) around the factory!!! There is that many loopholes in this business that they cant flaunt and I really want out....sick would mean no pay, and no means of living. This whole situation has got me sick and I've not slept for days trying to work out what to do.

 

After 22 years, you should be entitled to sick pay, surely?! I'm no employment expert, so maybe not.... but that sounds very wrong.

 

My place of work was taken over last year, so I can empathise with you on that score.... but I'm just urging you not to be too hasty because once it's done, thats it!! As far as I'm aware, you would not receive Benefits by leaving voluntarily..... and 26 weeks is a long time without a regular income.

 

[diesel-bo]

26 weeks is a long time to cope on nothing! Do they not even see the kids ok?

I would only get paid for 5 days, although I'm sure I'd get ssp after that, would you know if I was on this does that entitle me to housing or council tax benefit? I literally can't sleep for worrying what will be as I really can't see me being able to work under this new guy he's not the most understanding bloke at best and now has just dismissed all our concerns because he doesnt want to talk about it!!

[Nystagmite]

You may not be sanctioned for 26 weeks. You can apply for hardship payments.

[diesel-bo]

I'm sorry to keep sounding like a broken record but if I was 'sanctioned' and had to apply for hardship, would any of yous know if i can apply and get housing and council tax benefit?

Thanks.

[PriorityOne]

I'm sorry to keep sounding like a broken record but if I was 'sanctioned' and had to apply for hardship, would any of yous know if i can apply and get housing and council tax benefit?

Thanks.

 

I'd give them a ring if I were you and see where you stand that way. Explain everything. You may get sanctioned for JSA but I'm not sure that applies to Tax Credits or anything like that.... you may be ok with those but need to check CT/HB out for sure.

 

Hopefully someone will be along soon to provide you with a better answer than I can.... as it's not really my area.

[flumps1976]

If you left volutarily then claimed for JSA you would need to claim both contribution and income based as your partener does work it would be a couple claim as you have at least one child.

There is a possibility you could receive a sanction on your JSA claim and that would only relate to your JSA no other benefit entitlements however your claims for HB and CTB would then be made based on the groubds of low income so would be dependant on their processing (not council benefits trained sorry).

You tax credits will need to be amended to show your new circumstances and therefore you would only be entitled to Child Benefit (Chb) and Child Tax Ctedits (CTC).

If you do pursue a claim to JSA you will need to give your reasons for leaving in the form of a written statement on form ES84JP and the relevant stencil attached to give further infomation (you can either complete this following you New Claim Interview (NJI) or take it home and return within 7 calender days) and this statement will be referred to your local Sector DMA team who will consider your reasons for keaving and also if you believe that ob would have last fpr ayt least another 26 weeks after leaving. It is impossible to say which way the decision would go as your reasons will be applied to the Jobseeking regulations and acts.

Yes if you were sanctioned you could apply for hardship.

You need to take some time to think about things very carefully before you decide to walk.

Can you not continue with your current job and actively look for something else?

[diesel-bo]

Thats the problem, we've been asked not to go and seek work with any other companies, or to tell any of our friends who work for similar businesses as they want it to remain between themselves.....I really hope I can stick it out, but one of the directors has just (at dinner time) gone on holiday for 3 weeks and the director were lef with has told us nothing is going to happen until he comes back? I wouldnt of thought the administrators would wait for him to sun himself before deciding what happens to the bloody company....also were still not to ask any questions as he still doesnt want the confrontarion!!! I think hand on heart I'll walk, but lets be honest theyve lied and cheated up until now, I very much doubt that he'd be offering me and redundancy package!

Thanks again.

[PriorityOne]

Thats the problem, we've been asked not to go and seek work with any other companies, or to tell any of our friends who work for similar businesses as they want it to remain between themselves.....

 

They have no right to this and couldn't stop you looking/applying elsewhere anyway. This sounds very similar to something re. my own place of work where the boss wants to know everything... If you look for another job, put someone else down as referee.... that way, your boss doesn't need to know what you're doing.

 

On reflection, it might be worth you not hiding anything, so that they sack you instead.... lol

[flumps1976]

beware if you are sacked you could still face a possible sanction. They cannot stop you looking and applying for alternative jobs. If they are going into administration they won't wait for your boss to sun himself for the 3 weeks you are quite right. If they are going under the can actually contact the local JCP office and arrange for some officers to go out and give a redundancy talk about benefits and what other support there is available.

[diesel-bo]

Thanks everyone,

I'm going to give it the next few days to see what happens....although we've found out today that the director wishing to buy back the company isn't bothered about us workers at all as he'd been to speakin with other factories in the area to see if they could supply his showroom!!!! So I was right when I thought he was in it for himself! Also just one quick question we were handed a letter today and amongst other things in the letter it said he was hoping to buy the companies assets and trade but not a mention of taking over us the employees? Do we fall into any of the mentioned catagories? (Lol if we do, sorry for my thickness

[PriorityOne]

I would seriously try and hang on if you can.... you could well get redundancy out of this if that's his intention for the employees. Of course, it's cheaper for him to p*ss you all off beforehand.... but if you're aware of this, you'll know what he's doing and why he's doing it.

 

[diesel-bo]

Lets hope so! We've also heard today that his first offer was rejected by the administrators! It might sound harsh but if him and his co-directors have already milked on company dry it hardly seems fair that they're allowed to rise another company from its ashes!! Ha I might tell the administrators theyre hiding stock, then they'll be up the ****ter!!

[PriorityOne]

 

Ha I might tell the administrators theyre hiding stock, then they'll be up the ****ter!!

 

They would indeed...

[ptol]

I have been through a situation very similar to this 8 years ago as an employee, and am currently a director of a limited company, so I have some understanding of the situation your directors are in.

 

The first thing is this, you need to get authoritative facts, rather than fact-lets spun by one of the directors. If the company is under formal administration, then the administrators may at any point make you all redundant. As you have 22 years of service, that is a substantial sum of money to walk away from. It does not matter if the company does not have the money to pay you this money, you will get it from the benefits system instead in that situation.

 

If the company is under administration, then the most likely reason why the administrators have not made you all redundant is because they believe they can sell the company as a going concern.

 

However, I would be vary wary in this situation about trusting directors. When I was an employee in this situation I was told that they have faked the paperwork showing that i had been given my notice a month ago, denying me my payment in lieu of notice. In your case, with the directors trying to keep the administration quiet, is it because of embarrassment? or is it because they are wanting to deal with companies and pretend that they have the longer trading history of the current company?

 

As an employee, you are an interested party to the company failure, and are entitled to talk to the administrators. You may ask them any question you like. It is likely that they will answer your questions completely. Any answers they give to you directly, you can rely on being accurate to their view at that moment in time. The administrators have a legal duty to minimise the loss to the creditors. As an employee, you are top of the list of creditors, and if the company is viable as a going concern, the staff are also a key asset in such a sale.

 

The point of a limited company is that it limits the liability of the company owners to money that they have invested in the company. A director is employed by the shareholders to run the company on the behalf of the shareholders. In your case, its quite likely that shareholders and directors are the same group of people, but there may be more shareholders and directors than you are aware of.

 

However, there are some aspects that are important for you. As part of the company failure, the administrators will write a report to the official receiver on the conduct of the directors. In the case of the directors misbehaving, the result can be directors being banned from being a director. Any attempt to hide assets or other fraud by directors, and they can become personally liable for the company debts. Do not take part in anything that is fraudulent, as you would be committing a criminal act. The administrators would be very keen to hear about the instruction to hide company assets,

 

Company directors must cease to trade when the company situation reaches a point when it no longer has a chance of paying its debts as and when they become due. Company directors are entitled to a "blue sky forecast", that means that if they can reasonably believe that the trading situation could improve in time to pay bills they are entitled to continue up to the point when it become clear that will not happen. If they get this wrong, directors are personally liable for some of the company debts.

 

Assuming that the directors have behaved legally, then it is quite plausible for one of the directors to create a new company, buy the company assets from the administrator, and continue to trade. However, That would require the company suppliers to continue to be willing to supply the new company, despite having taken a loss from their previous company.

 

Now we get to the protections you have as an employee. If the company is bought as is, then you remain at the company on existing terms and the new owners have to follow normal procedures to adjust work roles, terms and conditions. If the undertakings and business are bought by a new company, then TUPE rules apply. that means you will effectively work for the new company, and that your terms and conditions need to be broadly similar, and your 22 years of continued service continues with the new company. In this respect though, your duties can be changed a little. It is also possible that you are made redundant at this stage.

 

In short, I'd start looking for a new job, but I would hold back from actually resigning just yet,as redundancy means at least your notice period + 13 weeks pay (or 19.5 weeks if you are 40 or over) Your employment contract may have enhanced redundancy terms (as was much more common 20 years ago...

Edited February 21, 2011 by ptol
added redundancy payment details

[diesel-bo]

Hi, thanks tons for all of the above!

I do have questions I want answered and none of them can be answered as I just keep getting told 'I can't answer anything as I don't own the company (yet/ ant more).

Would you know how I'd find out who the administrators are? Or would I seriously be over stepping the mark by speaking with them? Also do you think it's wise to mention to my work mates that by hiding things when asked they are commiting a criminal offence?

[ptol]

Hi, thanks tons for all of the above!

I do have questions I want answered and none of them can be answered as I just keep getting told 'I can't answer anything as I don't own the company (yet/ ant more).

Would you know how I'd find out who the administrators are? Or would I seriously be over stepping the mark by speaking with them? Also do you think it's wise to mention to my work mates that by hiding things when asked they are commiting a criminal offence?

In your situation, I would ask a question, when they answer with the "I don't own the company yet / anymore" answer, say that's fine, I understand the company is under administration. So i can ask my questions and actually get answers, who has been appointed administrators?

 

Regards the hiding. It depends on what the future plans are of the director that is not buying the company. If that director is not going to be part of the new company, then having a quiet word with them, pointing out that hiding assets from the administrators so the company has a reduced valuation, is effectively defrauding the creditors, and should that come to light, the directors will be made personally liable for the company debts by the official receiver should do the trick. If they are in on the fraud, expecting/hoping for a job in the new company, then i doubt that will work.

 

Telling your workmates is risky, as at the moment, there is the expectation that some people will avoid becoming unemployed. If competition for jobs gets nasty, you could end up being sacked (albeit unfairly) for undermining trust between the staff and the mangers.