Unfair Dismissal? ***WON***

[Murphy's Law]

I may be able to get access to the security log, which confirms the jobs were done (we have to log everything in it, including all jobs undertaken), but I'm not sure whether the company will comply with that request

 

It sounds like this log as well would be a very important piece of evidence. I would ask for it now (recorded delivery) and if they don't produce it I would write to the Employment Judge and ask him to issue an order. That would be a nice piece of work getting the Employment Judge to issue two orders for disclosure of documents - The Judge would be ****ed off with them even before the tribnunal starts.

[clemma]

Will do just that then

 

As an aside - I know, and am 99% sure, that the paperwork submitted to the manager from the drain down team and the security team has been lost. When the OH originally requested it, I went there and collected some documents from them (stuff I didn't ask for like emails and 3 written statements we'd never seen before from 3 managers including the GM who was to do the appeal), the manager said he didn't know where the other paperwork was. Only after that did the GM send an email saying that the paperwork the OH requested was irrelevant. So, in that case, the security log would be extremely helpful as that proves they at least did check the units. That will be my argument to get hold of it anyway.

 

I don't suppose the judge will be happy with the excuse "we've lost it".

[clemma]

Quick question that hopefully someone can help with.

 

I need to send the letter requesting documents, but I am not sure how it should be worded. Has anyone got a template letter? Also, do I send it to their solicitor or to the company? Thank you.

[mariefab]

Be careful what you ask for.

Earlier you suggested that you wanted the hand written notes of a meeting. If you ask for these, what's to stop them from adding things onto these notes.

One of the things in your favour is that the documents you already have show that the grounds for the disciplinary were just misconduct and under their policy could have led to a warning not a dismissal.

If you ask for hand written notes, what's to stop them from adding things like he was warned at the start of the meeting that their investigation had uncovered further offences (and detailing the 2 extra charges they tried to bring in after he originally appealed) that constitute gross misconduct and could therefore lead to his dismissal.

You may want to consider carefully before you ask for his personnel file whether you trust them not to re-date some of those statements slating his workmanship and/or creating a file that makes it look as if the Company had a long term problem with his workmanship.

 

Now, you may find when, in due course, they send you copies of everthing that they intend to rely on that they make up a lot of stuff anyway, but asking for things that they know you haven't seen is always risky and could put these sorts of ideas in their heads.

Keep your requests only to documents that you know will help your case.

 

You should send your request, by recorded or special delivery, to the respondent's representative.

Their details should be in section 7 of the ET3.

If section 7 is empty (you're in luck because that suggests that his employers are handling this themselves and you already know how much they've messed things up so far) you send it to the contact details in section 2 of the ET3.

 

You could frame it something like this:

Claimant: (your OH's name)

Respondent: (his former Company's name)

Case No: *******/2011

 

Dear (whoever),

 

Could you please send me complete copies of the following documents:

 

1. Drain down team paperwork handed to maintenance manager in November 2010.

 

2. Security team check paperwork handed to maintenance manager in December 2010.

 

3. Security log pages showing the dates 1 and 2 were undertaken.....

 

Also, if you don't already have them, the disciplinary policy showing the misconduct and gross misconduct examples and consequences.

 

P.S. Has the tribunal given you directions on the disclosure of documents and a date by which this should be completed?

[clemma]

Ok, so I think I will skip the personnel file. The notes, however - the OH has copies of typed notes already, but they are blatantly missing information. Anything that is on the handwritten notes, but not the typed notes, they obviously deemed unimportant - surely if they add the 2 extra charges, gross misconduct etc., then that should be on the notes he already has. Confused now.

 

The tribunal has given us no directions yet or a date. The last we heard is that it had been sent for listing. ACAS (blah) recommend we wait until they reply to the pre-conciliation (again) before requesting documents.

 

I'm still in two minds about what to ask for I think you have a point about proof of training or support - they could well make that up so I will skip that.

 

The statements about his performance aren't dated, but we have copies of them. However, thanks to an email they produced, it is obvious when these were written (the email was dated 8th February asking the 3 managers to basically hurry up and produce these statements). To change/add dates on them would seem a rather stupid thing for the company to do as our copies clearly do not show this.

 

Proof of complaint from the owner - again, they could make this up as we have not seen anything. However, they used the complaint as his reason for dismissal. But, as they could fake it, I will skip this too.

 

I'm thinking as I type here.....the 3 pieces of paperwork you state we should ask for, I will definitely do that. They won't be able to produce 2 out of the 3 and can't really fake them. The drain down information would go the OH's way anyway as they will have to put the work wasn't done - they can't state it was as that makes a mockery of the whole reason for his dismissal. The security team checks - well, if they fake that they are going to have a hard time getting me to re-do it (I wrote a lot of it out). And, anyway, faking that would only help the OH as again they would have to put the units in question had not been drained down. The log is just to confirm dates and times (so they cannot dispute it was done in December). The log is the only document I know they can produce. I could go to work now and lay my hands on it. Either way, asking for this paperwork is win-win for the OH.

 

Better stop typing now before I confuse everyone!

[mariefab]

It's up to you, but I'd wait until the tribunal orders the disclosure of documents.

[clemma]

It's up to you, but I'd wait until the tribunal orders the disclosure of documents.

 

Will do - we want to do everything properly.

[clemma]

Would just like to thank everyone on here who has given some invaluable advice. Received a phone call from ACAS and they are willing to settle for an amount that is very satisfying to us Happy days!

[papasmurf1cx]

yahoo !!!!!!!!

 

chalk another one down to CAG

 

Congratulations.

[RachelMD]

Bravo

[honeybee13]

Brilliant, I'm happy for you both.

 

Don't forget where we are .

 

HBx

[Ell-enn]

Excellent! well done for sticking up for yourselves Hope you can have a nice treat with the compensation

[caro]

Glad it's sorted for you both Clemma. I hope it makes up for what you've been put through.

[MONX]

Congrats Clemma!

 

Well done...they knew you had them sewed up like a kipper!

 

[suziebear67]

congrats

[clemma]

Thank you everyone! Although it would have been nice to see them squirm when it came to requesting documents AND when they had to answer some questions, we are mighty relieved it doesn't have to go to court. I'm glad I researched and CAGged as at first the OH just wanted his 2 weeks notice pay. Just shows, the little guys CAN win against the big boys. Don't let them intimidate you! Seriously, this could not have come at a better time though - baby is due in 4 weeks and I can actually buy a pram without worrying. Now to find out how long they are going to drag their heels before paying.......could be some time based on their liking for delaying EVERYTHING.

[RachelMD]

As I said to Monx yesterday, Clemma, don't go spending before the cheque is cleared in your bank account.

Getting an agreement to settle is one thing, getting the money can be another.

[clemma]

Oh, I won't be getting anything other than a pram (I have to anyway), but as long as a cheque comes through then I don't have to worry about spending that little bit of money. Anything else we need to get can wait. I have a feeling they will drag this out anyway. Thanks Rachel

[locutus]

WOW I was expecting a bit more drama to come here! Well done and congratulations!