Is this fraud or just complicated?

[tmsix]

My ex is being investigated by HM Revenue and Customers regarding her relationship status. The circumstances are that she spends around 60-80% of her time at my house with the children although she is has a council house and claims full benefits as a mum of 4 children from 5-10.

 

We are not in any relationship, we both live separate lives for that aspect, when we are together we are simply for the kids, I spend no time with her without the children. Before anybody answers, I know on paper this will be fraud and I also know and can prove no wrong doing on my behalf whatsoever. I am after advice and general opinion after you bear in mind what is best my 4 children in the wider picture of life as well.

 

Quick background, lived together for 10years and had 4 kids. Never married on paper but together. Split about 4 years ago, house was in our joint names but she never worked, I always did and still do and we both agreed to sell and split evenly (only about 16k equity) . She got a council house with the kids, still doesn't work and claims full benefit. I rent a house, 4 bed, much bigger than her house and 5 mins walk from kids school, her house 2 miles from school.

 

I have the kids as often a possible, I work / travel 50-60 hours a week mon to fri so I leave the house early and sometimes return late or stay away overnight but have the kids all weekend on my own. During the Mon-Fri my ex stays sometimes (3-4 days, more over Christmas) because it is easier to get the kids to school. Whatever the reason it helps me see the kids more, I know they are better looked after at my house, always have food etc and better education / fun / space etc so it's a no-brainer for me.

 

I hate having my ex around but for the kids sake I've found a way of keeping civil and out of each others way. I also know I'm lucky to see my kids nearly every day despite being split. I also support financially when at my house, I don't directly give her money, just keep the fridge full etc, pay all the bills and rent and give the kids trip money etc. Usually running them round several nights a week to clubs and weekends and all the usual extras kids need from shoes to footballs. There is no issue about me doing my fatherly duties with respect to time and money for the children, I'm lucky to be fit healthy and able to earn enough crust to support 4 kids.

 

I would have them living permanently with me but with all 4 still at primary school they are too young to be left alone and I could not fit in my work around school without my ex doing what she does, and I see no problem in her using my 'facilities' if that is best for my children, and believe me, compared with her house I know they are safer and under better influences.

 

So what should she do?

 

The right thing by law is that I tell her she can no longer stay at my house and I will just have the kids when I can outside work, mostly at weekends. End of, that's exactly what the law says.

 

But what is best for my children? Not the law in these circumstances so I won't do that.

 

So I'm looking for alternatives to advise her of or help with reasons to prove that this is not fraudulent, it's about doing the best for the children.

 

Somebody needs to benefit from fraud for it to be called fraud. I don't, I spend more money probably when they are with me so often. She doesn't get any more money than she would if she choose not to do the best for her kids, so again the only people benefiting from this are the children and therefore are they the only ones committing fraud here?

 

Thanks!!

P

[watchinginvestigation2010]

Would be seen as fraud from what Ive read. There are many cases where there are good reasons for arranging to run a family in such and such a way for the sake of the children and I am in no doubt you are caring for your kids as best you can to see them regulary, but and the big but is from what you have stated you can easily be considered as living together. The fact you know her situation and the house used is yours could indicate you are complicit in the fraud.

 

It would be better to get the situation to one where there is no risk of the children seeing their mother go to court for fraud or you even. Have you considered getting back together but for all intense and purposes you appear to be a couple living together. If not a good move better to make it legal and keep seperate lives apart from the kids. There should be no need if you have no relationship for your ex to sleep over more than occassionally. There was a misconception with many that there is a three night rule as in if you or she at yours sleeps over no more than three nights, then that was okay, but this is not so.

 

Have you been reported by anyone for living together as a couple or under investigation? If not you need to sort this now, either become legal family or lay down the law about what you find acceptable as in you ex. If you live so near to each other she should drop them off or pick them up etc....or you when work allows, but to live as you do it is seen as fraud.

 

The house your ex is hardly using could be well used by another family needing low cost housing and she could indeed lose it if your home is the main one used. You would then be in a sticky situation as to do you really want her with you if you as you state arnt happy with it but for the kids. Dont think any action on your part would disrupt your relationship with your kids, you have rights too and can have them set by court. Protect yourself and do the right thing before it is too late and sort things out before investigated where they will come after you too. Best wishes.

[ptol]

The question on the benefit forms is "are you living together as though you are married?" Whilst I accept your word at face value that the relationship is over and come to the conclusion that no you are not and your only relationship is with the children, hence I take the view that its not fraud.

 

However, benefit investigators are not likely to be so generous. The fraud that will be considered is that your wife claims and receives benefits as a single mum, whilst living with you as though you are married. The fact that she regularly stays overnight at your house, uses your house when you are not there, that you regularly stock her fridge with food, that the children go to a school local to your house, not hers etc... can all be used as evidence that you are still living together as though you are married.

[tmsix]

Thanks, I do agree that something needs to change, hence coming on this forum for advice even though I sound reluctant to change things.

 

I still believe I am doing nothing illegal, I haven't signed any forms or made declarations, in fact I have never claimed any benefit whatsoever in my life so I shouldn't be expected to understand those matters, however I should worry about their mum being in court or in trouble because that's not good, so I agree on that point and that alone is enough for me to change things.

 

So far she has received a letter questioning her circumstances and had a telephone interview about the matter, I suspect she has been reported by a neighbour of her house. She has been involved in some neighbour nuisance complaints against her. I saw the letter but didn't hear the call so I can't confirm what she told them but I suspect it was only a partial truth if not a lie. I think the 'none of my business' attitude towards her benefits needs to change now I've discovered what I have, a little bit of me is tempted to think like that, but again I don't want her in court.

 

Getting back together is an option attempted so many times it won't work. She does have a boyfriend that she sees regularly, but he doesn't work and spends most of his time in the pub spending my taxes so he doesn't complicate the financial situation, but makes it provable that we aren't in a relationship in terms of love etc.

 

You could argue we are in a financial relationship, but this would be the case regardless of whether she spent time at my house, and it is purely one way, I give her varying degrees of financial support to ensure the kids are looked after and capped when clearly she has too much alcohol money!

 

I agree that her house is a waste on many days, especially when there are housing shortages, but it is fully furnished and usable and half the kids stuff is there and she won't give that up and I can't make her either or make her stop claiming, even though that choice may be taken out of her hands.

 

Anyway thanks for the non-judgemental advice, here is the only place I'll admit that this is wrong however, I do feel strongly about putting morals and family above law where appropriate. I still feel torn and powerless to change some things.

 

cheers

P

Edited January 24, 2011 by tmsix

[ptol]

On reflection, I suspect your wife is potentially committing quite a substantial benefit fraud - possibly without realising it. You are currently paying her rent, providing her shopping and paying all household bills for her. I doubt your ex has declared this when she claimed housing benefit, council tax benefit and income support. Benefits that exist to cover the bills for people that have no other means to pay. The fact that no money changes hands does not matter, as the effect is that your ex is claiming for expenses that she does not pay.

 

My advise is to only provide support on a regular, defined cash basis. It makes it clearer, and it will promote financial independence - a factor that will help counter an argument that you are cohabiting. That and stopping your ex from staying over night.

[tmsix]

On reflection, I suspect your wife is potentially committing quite a substantial benefit fraud - possibly without realising it.

 

Yes and there lies the dilemma, I'm not going to shop her ever, can't make her stop what she does - except staying at my house. When I have stopped her staying for whatever reason the kids suffer whether through missing school or being exposed to people / things they shouldn't including a stabbing in her street involving one of her friends, theft, police being called out during early hours, neighbour complaints, just watch shameless for some more example etc etc, l provide for the kids mostly via goods rather than money because too much cash tends to get converted into a houseful of new friends, all drunk and some of the above events and on occasions the kids not getting into school and a phone call saying the kids have no food so I end up paying twice, once for booze and food. So in fairness I make it easy and tempting to stay it my house, the kids always beg to come here.

 

Anyway, I don't underestimate the seriousness, I did say I thought it was fraud on paper in my first post but I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't, well my kids are, but I still need to find a way to change things. Wondering if the easiest is encouraging her to just get a job, it might solve more than just the benefits problem!

 

I'm going to think things through again this week and make a change for the end of January, one way or another.

 

cheers

P

[ptol]

I appreciate the dilemma you are in. There is another option that you may not have considered, but it will require some substantial bravery on your part to follow through on it.

 

From what you have said, its clear that your wife's home life is not suitable for bringing up children, and your work commitments are such that being the primary carer during the week is not practical. However, it may well be possible for you to recruit an au pair, and to take custody of the children. This would release your commitments to your wife, and she would still be able to visit during the day, or when she finds a job, at the weekends.

 

Again, the savings on rent, her bills, and the fact you would receive the child benefit would probably come close to the Au Pair's salary.

[ptol]

Hi Tmsix,

 

I think it is very likely that life is about to become a lot more stressful for your ex, no matter what you do. Your ex is under investigation by benefits - just read a few other threads on here to start to understand how stressful an experience that can become. I would also suggest that the same person that reported her to benefits is just as likely to report your ex to social services. Some of what you have already said on this forum is of concern that your ex in not making suitable life choices whilst responsible for four children - and hence the risk that your children will be placed on the at risk register, or in extreme circumstances even end up in care.

 

What ever you choose in how you manage your relationship with your ex and your children, it is likely to be a rough journey ahead

 

Personally I would be preparing, in case you needed to apply to the court for custody of the children. I can understand your reluctance in this and agree its a big step and shouldn't be the first act on your part. Think of it as the plan B or plan C. Simple things like checking on the web to make sure you have parental rights (and if need be acting to get the rights now) whilst things are reasonably amicable. See here for the legal criteria, and also keeping a diary of how often the children stay the night with you, and any other contact you have with them.

 

I would then be pushing with plan A, getting a more normalised relationship with your ex. You might want to consider a request at work asking about adjusting your hours so you could take your children to school when they stay with you. that way, your ex would not need to stay the night. Ask at the school if they have a breakfast club as well. I would also suggest that you start dealing with your ex on a cash basis, but you provide the cash in smaller amounts, more often. Its quite possible she has not developed the skills to manage cash over a month at a time.Try a 3 day and a 4 day slot each week, and ask her to plan the food as shes going round the shop into actual meals. That way she should not run out of food. over time, when she shows she is managing the money ask if you can give it weekly and then see how she copes.

 

This post could go on for ever, but the goal is really to separate your and your ex's finances and lives, so the only tie you have is in organising childcare between yourselves. It may mean that you have to provide a framework for your ex to develop these skills. Its not to grind her down, but to help her develop as an independent person running her own house.

 

With regards to the benefit investigation, they may never contact you, but if they do, you will be faced with a problem. Either you lie/distort to cover for your ex in which case you become a guilty party in the fraud, you tell the truth, dumping your ex in it, or you refuse to provide any information, potentially loosing her the benefit, but not providing additional evidence for a criminal prosecution.

 

Good luck.

[tmsix]

thanks ptol, i've taken the first step and organised late starts at work on two days a week to take the kids to school, seriously thanks for the advice, clearly you understand the situ deeply to take the time for your reply, thanks again, you've spurred a change for the better.

[ptol]

Hi Tmsix,

 

Its good to hear iv'e helped. I really do wish you and your family well for the future.

 

Kind regards,

[honeybee13]

Hello tmsix. I think you're doing a great thing and are acting in a very kind way. I hope this works out for you, please keep us posted and ask again if you need anything.

 

All the best, HB

[tmsix]

Thanks everyone above for your kinds comments and considered thoughts, you really have spurred the change I discussed.

 

In terms of re-considering the parental duties in a legal sense, I have given that thought. In a ridiculous twist of fate I have parental responsibility for two of my children and not the other two due to the date of the law change. I knew and considered all that when we first split, but as an amicable parental relationship got better it has become less of an option. Any legal or formal action is now last on my list, and I work in the legal industry, my boss is a lawyer.

 

Anyway, things have changed already, we discussed the letter and she has agreed that situation needs to change. Since my first post the kids have stayed with their mum. On Friday I'm picking up the boys for the weekend and next week I have arranged 2 late starts to take them to school without their mum staying.

 

It's good to talk, thanks to everyone who replied, I don't know any of you personally but you seem like best friends for the advice I have been given.

 

cheers all,

P