Bristow & Sutor

[xboxer]

Having used this site to help with my own queries, looking once again to dip into the knowledge fount of the caggers!

My friend (honest) has had a couple of visits from B& S whilst at work and has chosen to ignore their hand delivered letters (sealed in brown envelope with his name only on it and marked private and confidential).

However that changed when they left 2 envelopes one night at 6 PM and realised they had levied his car!

The total amount he is now owing is £1473.49 for outstanding council tax. He broke the cardinal rule and phoned them to sort this out. He told them the most he could pay was £100 a month but they said this wasn't enough and then proceeded to ask him the following questions.

Name, DOB, NI number, phone number, email address, did he work and where, how much he earned, was he single, how much his partner earned, her name!

At first he answered all the questions till it came to his partners name, then queried why they needed all of this but he realised the damage was then done!

They have told him he needs to pay monthly payments of £342 then the remainder.

The car they levied on is worth about £800 at the most so wouldn’t cover the bill and the charges.

He has already paid the first instalment but knows he can't afford the next!

I have got him to phone the council to ask about the amount he owes and it's

£750.30 + £30 court costs (2004 – 2005)

£459.69 + £40 court costs (2005 - 2006)

There are 2 liability orders that were granted in May of this year.

He moved in November 2005 but they have asked him to confirm this and they will amended the second amount. He also asked if the amounts he is owing include the single occupancy discount and was told they did.

But checking online his old house is classed as band A and the full amount for 2004/05 is the same as the first cost! He will be phoning the council again in the morning to sort this!

He has also been charged 2 lots of First and Second visit charges and levy!

Is this enough to put the account in dispute or get his payments reduced?

[seanamarts]

Write to the council and ask why there has been two lots of visit fees added to his account. He can however pay direct to the council and ignore the bailiff.

They cannot add two sets of fees for visits.

[xboxer]

I had a chance to speak to my friend last night to see what documentation he has received.

He received his final warning at timed at 6pm and twenty minutes later received Notice of Seizure of Goods, Inventory of Goods and Memorandum of Amounts Due.

The amounts due are:

Council Tax & Costs £780.30

First Visit £24.50

Second Visit £18.00

Levy on Goods £49.00

Council Tax & Costs £493.69

First Visit £24.50

Second Visit £18.00

Levy on Goods £41.00

Redemption of Goods Fee £24.50

Total Amount £ 1473.49

Being that it looks like the council have the wrong amount for the first council tax as it still has to have a 25% single occupancy discount and was overcharged on the second amount by 2 – 3 months will this make the levy fees wrong?

Also with regards to seanamarts comment about not being able to charge sets of fees for visits, is this right IF there are 2 liability orders?

Can they charge levy TWICE on the same car?

The council informed my friend that they can't take the account back of B & S because of the levy But could if they have acted illegally!

He did inform the council they are liable for B & S actions.

Thanks in advance.

[sillygirl1]

They can only charge one lot of levy fees, not two, it is basically the same account. The bailiff needs to be reported to the courts as well for fraud.

[xboxer]

Hi Sillygirl1, is that the same for the visit costs? If so there some legislation or guidelines he can quote to council?

[hallowitch]

Detailed Assessment Judgment of Throssell v Leeds City Council where the District Judge ruled as follows:

“Turning to the taxation it seems to me that notwithstanding the fact that there were three liability orders but one visit was made by one bailiff and the maximum that the Council’s reasonable charges can be is the result of applying the formula contained in Schedule 5 paragraph 2 (1) (b) of the Regulations”

 

they cannot charge so many fees if only one visit is made

[hallowitch]

Detailed Assessment Judgment of Throssell v Leeds City Council where the District Judge ruled as follows:

“Turning to the taxation it seems to me that notwithstanding the fact that there were three liability orders but one visit was made by one bailiff and the maximum that the Council’s reasonable charges can be is the result of applying the formula contained in Schedule 5 paragraph 2 (1) (b) of the Regulations”

 

they cannot charge so many fees if only one visit is made

[xboxer]

Thanks hallowitch, currently reading through the regulations

SCHEDULE 5 CHARGES CONNECTED WITH DISTRESS

I take it this is the is what you mean?

[xboxer]

From what I can read in The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 Schedule 5 paragraph 2 (1) (b) of the Regulations

It mentions liability order (singular) but can't find anything stating multiple liability orders at the same time. Or is it a case of mentioning the above case aswell?

Would hate to see B & S get away with this on a technicality!

[xboxer]

So after a bit more digging regarding the double fees would this be relevent as well?

Fraud Act 2006, Section 4(1)©(i) intends, by means of the abuse of that position—

(i)to make a gain for himself or another

[sillygirl1]

Yes, the order is for a council tax account, you have one account - not a different account number for each financial year. The bailiff is pulling a trick on you by making you believe that you owe for both lots.

 

Plus the fact that the amounts are wrong - you need to get straight to the head of the local council via email on this one, copying in your local MP.

[xboxer]

Just worked out what is should be then.

Council Tax + Costs £780.30

Council Tax + Costs £493.69

Amount Due £1273.99

First Visit £24.50

Second Visit £18

Total Amount Due £1316.49

First £100 @ 24.5% = £24.5

Next £400 @ 4% = £16

£816.49 left @ 2.5% = £20.41

So levy would be £61 (60.91) plus redemption of goods fee (Head H) of £24.50

this would be a total of £85.50 NOT £199.50 that they are claiming.

Being that my friend has already paid them £105 B & S ACTUALLY owe the council £19.5!

[seanamarts]

They cannot charge twice for one visit regardless on how many levies they have.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1988/2050/article/12/made

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/613/regulation/35/made

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/613/regulation/45/made

From what I am reading and understanding, the two amounts should be classed as one and charged as one.

[seanamarts]

I would write to the council suggesting they sort this out or you will take it to court under regulation 46 of the Council tax administration and enforcement act.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/613/regulation/46/made

The bailiffs have clearly made a cock up

[xboxer]

Hi seanamarts, the more I read the more obvious it is that B & S are at it.

Also with the liability orders my friend didn't receive them despite being on the electoral role in his current address since Oct 06!

[seanamarts]

Council have a habit of not sending them out, but will swear they did.

I will tell you a little secret with regards to councils and liability orders that they dont want people to know about. They are meant to send you a letter inviting you to attend the court where they are going to apply for a liability order against you, these dont often get sent out because they do a job lot and often or not many people are not informed, they will call it a clerical error or fob you off and tell you it had been sent. Then before any case is even heard all liability orders are signed by a judge or on behalf of a judge, in the hope that you wont attend, which 9 out of 10 people wont.

Watch some vids on the freeman and the council tax or read up on it, its quite interesting and knowledgeable.

[xboxer]

Well first off I would like to say thanks to everyone so far with the advice and info, it's been a BIG help!

 

I'm going to be getting my serious letter writing head on later and see what the council come back with.

Is there a resonable time limit my friend should expect here?

[seanamarts]

Councils usually respond to letters within 14 working days, depends what you write though

[xboxer]

I'll be polite and tell them their agents have been acting illegally and they are responsible for them. That I look forward to their prompt response whilst I seek legal advice.

[hallowitch]

plus redemption of goods fee (Head H) of £24.50

 

 

he should not have been charged this fee

 

this fee is charged when goods are removed and the debt is paid before the sale of the goods

 

 

H Where no sale takes place by reason of payment or tender in the

Circumstances referred to in Regulation 45(4);

(i) £24.50, or

(ii) the actual costs incurred, to a maximum of 5% of the amount in respect of which the liability order was made.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/613/regulation/45/made

(4) Where an authority has seized goods of the debtor in pursuance of the distress, but before sale of those goods the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender) is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount, the sale shall not be proceeded with and the goods shall be made available for collection by the debtor.

[xboxer]

Thanks for that hallowitch. That means B & S have charged more than 3 times the amount they are legally allowed to charge!

Definitely a case of deliberately charging more because they hope you don't know the law.

[xboxer]

OK this a copy of the letter my friend is think of sending.

 

Ref No: xxxxxxxxxxx

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

I am hereby lodging a formal against your agents Bristow & Sutor whose services you have employed for the collection of Council Tax arrears.

 

My reasons for the complaint are the unlawfully and fraudulent application of excessive charges.

 

I only have ONE account with yourselves so the collection of two amounts of arrears still results in ONE account being in arrears. This should result in one lot of charges being applied not the two Bristow & Sutor have charged.

 

Also I have been charged TWO levy fees on the same vehicle. Again only ONE levy fee IF ANY should have been charged.

 

With regards to the fees and levy charges I of course refer to The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 Schedule 5 paragraph 2 (1) (b) .

By using this formula the maximum I should have been charged is £61 NOT the £199.50 Bristow & Sutor have charged.

 

I have also been charged a Redemption of Goods fee (head H) of £24.50. This is ANOTHER fee I should not of been charged according to Section 45 (4).

 

The fact that the above fees have been knowingly charged by the bailiff is clearly fraudulent behaviour and as such is a chargeable under theFraud Act 2006, Section 4(1)©(i).

 

I do not need to remind you as Bristow & Sutor are acting as your agents then you are wholly liable for the actions.

 

As £xxx.xx was paid on xx/11/10 I believe Bristow & Sutor now owe you £xx.xx which I will expect to go towards clearing my arrears.

 

As I expressed in my telephone conversation on 17/11/10 now that I'm aware of these arrears I am more than happy to enter into a reasonable repayment plan with yourselves.

 

I look forward to your prompt reply so that we may come to an amicable agreement.

 

 

comments?

Edited November 18, 2010 by xboxer
missed a couple of words

[seanamarts]

Very good

[ploddertom]

I only have ONE account with yourselves so the collection of two amounts of arrears still results in ONE account being in arrears. This should result in one lot of charges being applied not the two Bristow & Sutor have charged.

 

In your first post you list 2 different years, what you should do first is confirm with the Council how many Liability Orders there are. If as you say they cover 2 different years then yes there are 2 orders they are collecting upon so therefore the above is untrue.

 

The fact that the above fees have been knowingly charged by the bailiff is clearly fraudulent behaviour and as such is a chargeable under theFraud Act 2006, Section 4(1)©(i).

 

You need to be careful what you say here. If they are only listed as their fees it is not quite the same. If however your account is paid off then the above could be true & if so should be reported as a crime & not as a complaint.

 

 

PT

[xboxer]

Hi PT

 

I only have ONE account with yourselves so the collection of two amounts of arrears still results in ONE account being in arrears. This should result in one lot of charges being applied not the two Bristow & Sutor have charged.

 

In your first post you list 2 different years, what you should do first is confirm with the Council how many Liability Orders there are. If as you say they cover 2 different years then yes there are 2 orders they are collecting upon so therefore the above is untrue.

 

There are 2 liability orders both issued in May of this year. B & S have visited with the intention of collecting on both on the same visit. Hence 1 visit for both orders, then a second visit for both orders, then 2 levies on the same vehicle. It's my understanding that the fees are supposed to be reasonable for covering their costs.

If what your saying is true then if they were collecting on 10 liability orders on the same visit they could charge 10 first visits even though their costs have not increased.

B & S have only shown the amount as 2 different years of council tax on working out their costs on all other correspondences they only show a total amount and ask for 1 reference number to be quoted when paying/querying.

 

The fact that the above fees have been knowingly charged by the bailiff is clearly fraudulent behaviour and as such is a chargeable under the Fraud Act 2006, Section 4(1)©(i).

 

You need to be careful what you say here. If they are only listed as their fees it is not quite the same. If however your account is paid off then the above could be true & if so should be reported as a crime & not as a complaint.

 

Again with this one the way the fees have been applied and levying on a vehicle that would be lucky to collect £800 in auction would not cover the even half the money owing and even less after the costs have been deducted. Doesn't this clause relate to making charges for the sole benefit of financial gain?

 

It's my friends intention to point out to the council that B & S have been behaving unlawfully and have the council take the debt back as if the fees were applied reasonably then B & S have been paid everything they are owed.

Once he starts dealing with the council again he still intends to report B & S.

 

If I have got anything wrong here then I apologise. I'm here seeking advise and welcome any and all help given.

Edited November 19, 2010 by xboxer
missed a couple of words