Problems with PAYPAL as a seller on Ebay

[kdogg20]

Hi All

 

I am having a few problems with Paypal after selling an item on Ebay. I am based in the UK and I sold a mobile phone for £321 to a guy in Australia. The buyer sent me payment through Paypal which I then withdrew to my bank account and sent the phone via Royal Mail International Signed for delivery.

 

After a couple of weeks the guy made a claim he had not received the item. Paypal asked for a tracking number(on my receipt from royal mail) to prove I had sent item. I provided this but after a further 2 weeks they found in favour of the buyer and debited my account £321.

 

Paypal advised me to make a claim through to Royal Mail which I am now doing but they have admitted even if Royal Mail provide proof the item was delivered it would be up to ME to take legal action against the buyer who lives on the other side of the world!

 

As it stands I am a phone down and also £321 in debt to Paypal which they are threatening to pass to a debt collection agency. Surely this is not fair!?

 

Many Thanks

[marksweeney]

Hi,

I am having similar troubles. I didn't repay eBay and they set IQOR on to me. I would write to eBay and complain. I also rang Consumer Direct, who were great and told me exactly what I need to do - would definitely recommend.

[SOD'EM]

Sorry to hear about your predicament, but Paypal always favour the buyer. I haven't known it any other way.

 

An item of that value should have needed a signature at the other end. Have you tried putting the tracking number

online to see what position the parcel is at?

 

http://track.royalmail.com/portal/rm/track;jsessionid=UFZ4TJLOU0LVCFB2IGIVFHQ;jsessionid=UFZ4TJLOU0LVCFB2IGIVFHQ?catId=22700601&emt=emt&track=track&default=default&imageRootPath=&loc=en_GB&keyname=track_home&gear=track

 

Hope you get things sorted.

[totiesquoties]

Hi All

 

I am having a few problems with Paypal after selling an item on Ebay. I am based in the UK and I sold a mobile phone for £321 to a guy in Australia. The buyer sent me payment through Paypal which I then withdrew to my bank account and sent the phone via Royal Mail International Signed for delivery.

 

After a couple of weeks the guy made a claim he had not received the item. Paypal asked for a tracking number(on my receipt from royal mail) to prove I had sent item. I provided this but after a further 2 weeks they found in favour of the buyer and debited my account £321.

 

Paypal advised me to make a claim through to Royal Mail which I am now doing but they have admitted even if Royal Mail provide proof the item was delivered it would be up to ME to take legal action against the buyer who lives on the other side of the world!

 

As it stands I am a phone down and also £321 in debt to Paypal which they are threatening to pass to a debt collection agency. Surely this is not fair!?

 

Many Thanks

 

hi kdogg20,

 

you too have rights, you must have your bank details with paypal, so you must have a bank, who is your bank, ring them and tell them your problem, and see if they can advise what your rights are on this as they see if from you as a seller,

also go in to see the citizens advice bureau on your rights as a seller, come back and let us all know how you get on t.q.

[kdogg20]

Many Thanks for your reply

Yes the tracking number just says 'delivered to Australia' but doesnt state it has actually been delivered to the guys house. It does also have to be signed for so Im hoping that there should be a bit of a paper trail that will back me up. Also, the guy has been kicked off Ebay for 'incorrect buyer practises' so I guess he's been doing this for a while. I am still awaiting Royal mails decision on the case (2 months on). My worry is Royal Mail having proof it was delivered, because I still don't think Paypal will play ball and return my account balance to zero, one guy at Paypal told me it will be up to me to take legal action if this happens? Surely not right?!? Any Thoughts?

[IdaInFife]

moved to general forums

[kdogg20]

Paypal contacted me today stating they are sending my debt to a debt collection agency. I dont want to pay it whilst I am still in dispute but I dont want to have a bad credit rating over all this!?

[buzby]

Your credit file will be defaulted over this. It may seem unfair, but under their T&C's (which you will have agreed to) they have the law on their side. It is a shame the buyer was not 'exposed' prior to your reversal, as this would have worked in your favour. Paypal will only have looked at the Treacking Info to see if the item was marked as signed for on delivery. If it was not, a cancellation would be allowed. Your route to compensation is via RM and it is to them that you must seek your refund.

 

Paypal will not be interested in your protestations that the matter is in 'dispute' - they will expect you to repay them and get your money from the carrier - and they will not wait for this to be paid to you before wanting payment. In your situation, I probably would not have sent the item to Oz - limiting any sale to the EU, due to distance and transit times.

[andydd]

This is an unfortunate incident but i have yet to meet anyone who has used Ebay/Paypal for any length of time and not run into a similar problem, i know I have.

 

The problem is that Paypal actively encourges selling abroad but Royal mail tracking is worth nothing after it leaves the country, as Busby pointed out, selling abroad is rather risky and best avoided.

 

If the item was sold in the UK (and maybe even the EU) you would of had less trouble proving it was delivered, there does appear to be a buyer bias on Ebay/Paypal but in cases where you can prove delivery you should be ok.

 

You always have to be very very creaful when selling high price goods |(especially desirable items such as phones, laptops, etc), I can garauntee that at least 1 of the bids will be from a [EDIT] who will then ask you to send it to Nigeria or Easter Europe or arrange a pickup in a pub car park or some such [problem].

 

I think (!) I'm wise now to the many Ebay/Paypal scams, i believe I am an inteeligent, savy 42 year old guy who works in IT support and is well aware of scams and cons but even I have been caught out, the reality is though that i didnt re-imburse Ebay or Paypal, yeah, Ive been hassled by DCA's but they eventually go away and it is well known that they wont start court action, I believe these all happened before the T & C's were changed to include the ability to affect you Credit rating, not that I'd care, its pretty awfull anyway.

 

Just learn from your mistake, also (whilst maybe not actually allowed) it is always possible to start a new Ebay or Paypal account (you have to be a bit clever though).

 

Andy

[buzby]

Well, having been a user of Paypal for 12 years, as a buyer and a seller - I can say I've never actually lost out, but it requires meticulous reading of their advice and T&Cs to ensure you don't make a false assumption and get caught out. I might also have just been lucky, but most issues are avoidable with a little thought. (The only one that needs highlighting, is accepting PayPal then letting the buyer collect, even if he signs a receipt). Nooooo!

[andydd]

Well, having been a user of Paypal for 12 years, as a buyer and a seller - I can say I've never actually lost out, but it requires meticulous reading of their advice and T&Cs to ensure you don't make a false assumption and get caught out. I might also have just been lucky, but most issues are avoidable with a little thought. (The only one that needs highlighting, is accepting PayPal then letting the buyer collect, even if he signs a receipt). Nooooo!

 

Yes..the last one is what caught me out, 2 years ago at Xmas time, a guy contacted me, he was down with his folks over Xmas, could he pop round and collect, yes, no problem , all seemed fine to me but a few days later Paypal informed me of a fraud (someone had hijacked someone else's email AND ebay AND paypal accounts or so they claimed), anyway although 'techinically' it was my loss to bear, screw it i thought, I occasionally get letters from a DCA chasing this 'debt' but not for about a year or so now. Ultimately I still use Ebay and Paypal and the loss must is Ebay's/Paypal's to bear (I think this situation must be rather common).

 

Andy

[Guest GAMANAGEMENT.ORG]

This post has been edited to remove an unauthorised uninvited spamming advertisement.

 

We would not recommend the use of any company which does this kind of thing

 

Furthermore this firm does not appear to be authorised by the Minister of Justice and they are using the our trademark on their site without permission.

 

Edited by BankFodder 18.09.2010

[kdogg20]

I have now recieved a letter from Royal Mail stating item WAS delivered. So I not only have proof item was sent, but proof item was RECEIVED. I have used Ebay and Paypal for years and have good ratings but at the end of the day I fear Paypal are going to side with a guy who is an obvious [EDIT] who has since been kicked off Ebay. How can there be such a big loophole that practically encourages fraud because its so easy to do and get away with it. There is nothing more that I could have done but really think Im going to have to bite the bullet and cough up. Any thoughts??!!

[SOD'EM]

Have you told Paypal about the letter from RM? Surely that would change their perspective on the matter. Also, if they know it has been delivered, was a signature required?

[buzby]

I have the impression that to be successful, PP/eBay require the note of deliuvery to be shown 'online' against the relevant tracking number. A letter from RM does not provide this (unless the delivery record was updated too). I agree, it IS unfair.

[perplexity]

.... but it requires meticulous reading of their advice and T&Cs to ensure you don't make a false assumption and get caught out. ..

 

They might have noticed this for instance:

 

... PayPal retains full discretion to make a final decision in favour of the buyer or the seller based on any criteria PayPal deems appropriate....

 

 

Section 11.9 of The Paypal User Agreement also explains precisely: What is “Proof of Delivery”? if only they'd bother to look it up.

 

They more they moan about it not being fair, the more foolish they are to subscribe.

 

[Medium]

Sell within the UK, exlude Europe too, unless you know the buyer!

What information made Paypal find in favour of the buyer?

Have they proof of delivery, and what is the source of their information.

 

Hi All

 

I am having a few problems with Paypal after selling an item on Ebay. I am based in the UK and I sold a mobile phone for £321 to a guy in Australia. The buyer sent me payment through Paypal which I then withdrew to my bank account and sent the phone via Royal Mail International Signed for delivery.

 

After a couple of weeks the guy made a claim he had not received the item. Paypal asked for a tracking number(on my receipt from royal mail) to prove I had sent item. I provided this but after a further 2 weeks they found in favour of the buyer and debited my account £321.

 

Paypal advised me to make a claim through to Royal Mail which I am now doing but they have admitted even if Royal Mail provide proof the item was delivered it would be up to ME to take legal action against the buyer who lives on the other side of the world!

 

As it stands I am a phone down and also £321 in debt to Paypal which they are threatening to pass to a debt collection agency. Surely this is not fair!?

 

Many Thanks

[buzby]

Europe is fine, but avoid Lithuania, Estonia & Croatia. On the case you highlighted, a parcel to Australi by Airsur only takes a week, so a claim 'after a few weeks' is quite reasonable.

[callumsgran]

I sent a phone i'd sold to India and had the same problem

After getting my fingers burnt i've decided International Signed for etc arent worth the paper they're written on and i will never send abroad again!

I never paid paypal back either

[buzby]

Checked your credit file? From September 2009 they report defaults to Experian. As for selling a phone to India....

[callumsgran]

Yes i have checked my file, its not on there!

I did contact someone else the buyer had bought from in this country and he said he'd had no problems with him so thought i'd done the necessary homework.

You know what they say, once bitten........

I wont do it again thats for sure, it's a shame though because there are a lot of genuine buyers out there abroad but the bad ones spoil it for them

[buzby]

Yup, but sometimes it pays to be cautious... I don't ship to anywhere in Africa or far-eastern Europe, (Poland is about as far East as I'll go) and so far, it's all been OK!

[kdogg20]

GOOD NEWS GUYS. Paypal have credited my account. I am not sure if they're now taking the claim up with the buyer or have taken the hit themselves but who cares??...

Basically my last phone call with Paypal was along the lines of:

'I sent the item via Royal Mail, a courier you approve of. Using their International Signed For delivery - the only one you can use when sending to Australia. You asked me for online tracking information, which I gave to you, unfortionatley its not tracked as soon as it leaves the shores, something which Paypal MUST know. You then asked for proof of delivery from Royal Mail- which I provided you with, you then said it wasnt good enough and asked for a signature - again something Paypal must know Royal Mail cannot give to me because of data protection laws. Sooo I believe there is nothing more I could possibly do and so I will require a final decision letter so I can escalate a case with the financial ombudsman.'

3 Days later my account was credited and the whole matter is done.

There is basically no protection if you sell an item to Australia. As soon as the buyer makes a claim they will get their money back because there is nothing you can do to prove to Paypal it has been received. I think they only took pity on me because I was ringing them every other day and didnt want an Ombudsman case.

[Dragons Dennis]

I wouldn't use Paypal if they were the last bunch of sharks on the planet. Ebay getting paid twice as far as I am concerned, seeing as it is the same company. As a seller you MUST accept Paypal, which a breach of the monopolies act IMHO. Stinking company who seem to believe they are above the law.

 

2 rules for Ebay. NEVER send anything abroad ever and NEVER accept paypal.

[andydd]

I wouldn't use Paypal if they were the last bunch of sharks on the planet. Ebay getting paid twice as far as I am concerned, seeing as it is the same company. As a seller you MUST accept Paypal, which a breach of the monopolies act IMHO. Stinking company who seem to believe they are above the law.

 

2 rules for Ebay. NEVER send anything abroad ever and NEVER accept paypal.

 

Unfortunately by not accepting Paypal you do limit the amount items sell for as many people do find it quick and easy to use and cant be bothered (or even have) cheques or want to get involved with bank transfers.

 

I am not fan of Paypal but ultimately ive probably screwed them around as much as theyve messed me about.

 

What the above post describes is that there seems to be no consitency between Paypal (and Ebay decision) they vary widely and despite pages and pages of T & C's it is still unclear as to where a person stands, Paypal's reluctance to chase people through courts for 'debts' (often due to a fraud which had nothing to do with the original person) does imply that thay themselves are unsure as to what side a court would take.

 

I still use both but I very very wary of both Ebay and Paypal/

 

My list of 'rules' would be:-

 

1. Dont sell post abroad (despite Ebay trying to push you to do so).

 

2. Dont leave credit/debit cards permantly 'linked' in your Paypal account.

 

3. If you link a bank account for withdrawls dont use your standard current account into which your wages, payments come and go, use another account.

 

4. Dont link your card/paypal account for automatic Ebay payments, pay them on a one-off basis.

 

5. If Paypal freeze your funds, kick up a fuss, they are supposed to relaese it if you provide them with either postive Ebay feedback for the item you sold OR (after waiting 3 days) you provide them with proof of delivery.

 

Andy