undeclared partner what do i do now

[shazmojo]

Help i don't know what to do.....

i had an interview under caution yesterday for having an undeclared partner

my bf has been staying to support me as i am not coping with things in my life at the moment,i care for my 30yr old nephew who has severe autism & is turning increasingly violent towards me(no help from social services)

nightmare neighbours abuse threats have been scared to stay alone in my house at times,elderly mother failing health constantly demanding more & more from me,topped of with my own health issues(abnormal cells found)

they have evidence of him being here, i know i have done wrong but don't know what do do next have been told could take up to 3mths for them to decide what happens & i can't live the worry of this aswell

if i admit the offence what will happen ? would i be prosecuted & go to court as i have admitted guilt, i am so scared don't know what do to do

Edited July 7, 2010 by shazmojo

[ErikaPNP]

There isn't enough information in your post to determine possible outcomes. What will happen is that you will be required to re-pay all the benefit which has been overpaid.

 

What can happen in addition to recovery of the overpayment depends on a variety of factors such as how the fraud was committed, the period of the fraud, mitigating circumstances and the sum of the overpayment. You can find out more in the sanction policy (click the link).

 

As you will see from the link, there is a variety of penalties such as an admin fee, a caution (this is a departmental caution and only appears on benefit records, not police records), or prosecution.

 

Even where guilt is admitted they can still proceed with prosecution. However it is well known that for an early plea, courts are more lenient in their penalty (if it were to go that far).

 

In regard to your nephew and your mother - you have mentioned that you get no support from Social Services. Do you get any support from other organisations? Are you and they claiming relevant benefits such as DLA/AA/Carers Allowance?

 

In regard to your neighbours, how is this being dealt with?

 

I've also moved your thread to the benefit forum to attract more responses.

[shazmojo]

they said fraud was claiming HB & income support when my bf stayed with me,didn't tell me amount of overpayment

should i get legal representation ? to be honest the thought of speaking to these people again terrifies me i feel physically sick

my nephew has lived with me for 18yrs he gets SDA,DLA, careers allowance is paid to me,

i know mum gets her pension & a monthly payment approx £300 couldn't say what this is paid for

have reported neighbours to housing they just send letters & make it worse for me ( now threatening to shoot my cats)

[ErikaPNP]

They won't know the amount of the overpayment as yet, Shaz. The people who interviewed you won't be the ones who make any decision on that. They'll inform you of the amount once they come to their decision.

 

If it goes to court, yes you would need proper legal representation. If they ask to speak with you again in regard to this and provide another interview date, you can request that it be deferred to enable you to seek legal advice. There are some free legal advice centres dotted around the UK. You can search for one here

 

I would start keeping a diary on your neighbours. Document everything that happens, and report any criminal offences/antisocial behaviour to the police as well as the housing department.

[shazmojo]

i have now found out that the people who did my interview visited my bf mum yesterday to ask where he lives they also asked about her about his brothers none of which are on benefits or ever have been & don't live at her house which she owns,this has put her in a right state

would it be best just to ring them & admit wrong doing just to stop them questioning others, hate to think what a state my mum would get in if they visit her,

[ErikaPNP]

If you have committed fraud (and that appears to be the case) then the only advice I would give is to admit to it. However they may still question people if they need to gather further evidence to determine the eventual outcome.

[bigsteve0000]

how many nights a week was he stopping at yours,(hes allowed to stay 3 nights without affecting you benifits) has he a got a place of his own or living somewhere else. if hes living with you full time, how long has he been stayin with you.

 

if, for example, hes been staying overnight to help with the disabled members of your family and then going home during the day to sleep, then hes not been living their hes been visiting.

if hes not been staying their all week but has been going to his own home some nights, then hes not living their hes visiting. but more than 3 nights will affect you benifits. I douwt they have been whatching you day and night for months on end, they probably only whatched for a week or a fourtnight and probably relying on an informent whos information you can dissmis as maliciouse due to you making complaint to the council of anti social behaviour.

 

stop panicing and get down to the citisens advice bereau, theyll know what to do.

[loopinlouie]

Its is a common misunderstanding that a partner of boyfriend is allowed to stay three nights a week, it simply is not true, sorry xx

[bigsteve0000]

Its is a common misunderstanding that a partner of boyfriend is allowed to stay three nights a week, it simply is not true, sorry xx

 

my sister wa told this by CAB 2 years ago and it was confirmed by my cosins husband who worked in the DWP fraud section (very very busy man)

 

her boy friend who lives over 30 miles away has his own business in the city and drives the 30 miles each day then back again. he stops over if its a lat finnis or an early start. 1 malciouse phone call and weeks of agro.

[loopinlouie]

Its been said many times that this three day rule does not exist, I wish for people it was written down or in text, but its simply not and people quote it and are shocked it does not help them fight their cause. There are cases when people have said parnter stays only two days and therefore we are together less than three day rule and find they are prosecuted.

 

Ask Erika to comment on this issue.

 

No offence but be very careful taking something as a rule when quoted over the phone, in writing okay but not over the phone, mistakes happen. A lot of people get caught out by this mistake, if so could your family member quote where it is written down, because obviously if is the case some people are wrongly prosecuted

Edited July 8, 2010 by loopinlouie

[shazmojo]

have been in touch with cab today just waiting for one of there specialists to ring me with an urgent appointment,

should i get legal representation to be with me when i go to see them

i didn't tell them when i should have but it wasn't somthing i planned to happen just with everything else i am dealing with it i am finding life hard to cope with at the moment

[bigsteve0000]

have been in touch with cab today just waiting for one of there specialists to ring me with an urgent appointment,

should i get legal representation to be with me when i go to see them

i didn't tell them when i should have but it wasn't somthing i planned to happen just with everything else i am dealing with it i am finding life hard to cope with at the moment

 

you dont need legal rep to see CAB theyll tell you if youll need legal rep to sort out DWP. if your interviewed under caution by DWP you can have a solicitor present, my advice is have one.

 

remember the CAB are there to help you.

[bigsteve0000]

could your family member quote where it is written down, because obviously if is the case some people are wrongly prosecuted

 

 

will try and contact him, havent seen him in over 5 years myself but will contact my sis shes last one to have seen. were a very BIG family and spread out over a wide area so hard to keep up with all the cousins.

 

I could ask my wifes second brother he works in the jobcentre but I dont think he would tell me. hes the sort that thinks its his money they pay you with.

[jabba jones]

Loopinlouie is correct it's a myth, it's a excuse that often gets trotted out in interviews.

[bigsteve0000]

will check it out but my sis was told it by cab and cousins hubby who worked for dwp fraud dep

[ErikaPNP]

The three nights rule is a widespread myth - one that gives me a number of headaches when helping people with this. There isn't and never has been a three nights rule in respect of partners enshrined in legislation or in the fraud guide.

 

I've explained this before in the forum that it originated from an example given in a guide book years ago. Examples are not authoritive statements of the law, however many people including Jobcentre employees and Welfare Advisors took this example out of context and continue to do so.

 

There are a broad range of factors that have to be taken into account in determining if someone is living together as husband and wife/civil partners, and within that it is considered how often the alledged partner stays over but there is no definitive 3 night rule.

 

LTAHAW/CP DMG

LTAHAW.doc

[bigsteve0000]

as I understood the op the boy friend was staying over. she didnt say he had moved in and they were living together, all my questions are valid dose he have is own place and how many nights is he stopping.

if he has is own place and stayin 3 nights or less then he will be classed as a visitor. no other address and stay more then 3 nights he will be classed as resiident. I didnt say it was a rule this is how they work it out, this is what cab and a fraud investigator told my sis. it may not be a rule set in law but it is the "guide line" they use to work out whats going on. this is part of the conditions they use to determin what your "allowed to do". and when your on the dole they say what your "allowed" to do.

[ErikaPNP]

This is not a guideline and never has been. They have never used three nights to "work it out". Read the fraud guide I attached in my post which is a publication by the DWP for FIS officers to use. You will see there are far more factors to consider than how often a person stays overnight and no "three night rule".

 

Unless it's in black and white in legislation or in a DWP published guide, it doesn't exist.

 

Anything by word of mouth is hearsay and will do nothing other than to mislead a person, even unintentionally.

[jabba jones]

if he has is own place and stayin 3 nights or less then he will be classed as a visitor. no other address and stay more then 3 nights he will be classed as resiident. quote]

 

If only it was that simple. It's MUCH more complicated than that as any fraud investigator who has actually dealt with one of these case's would be able to tell you.

[loopinlouie]

No point anyone trying the three day rule as friend partner doesnt live there and no point insisting that there is such a rule. Try refering to it in court, they will ask for documentary proof and it doesnt exist. I was a while ago told a certain extra ammount of money comming to my account as in csa was mine and to go out and enjoy and dwp employee put it like that as I kept ringing asking for reassurance as was a large ammount of money.

 

I know now the csa money is not counted as income, but back then it was even though told mine. I recorded the call as usual for memory and was able to fight an overpayment letter contradicting what told over the phone and asking for the money back.

 

I still havnt had written confirmation its at and end just over the phone, but if I hadnt recorded the call and therefore speant more money than normal genuinely thinking it was mine as told, I would still be in trouble.

 

Record calls to protect yourself. probably wont need to refer to them as genuinely most information I am sure is correct, but for the time a human error is made you then can proove what told. xx

 

Anotherwords told three day rule exists dont have proof unless recorded or in writing. You have to be careful, so much is changing now and we trust the advisors, but they are human too and can misquote rules in error..

Although I am sure not intentioned the stress caused sorting the error out is huge.

Edited July 8, 2010 by loopinlouie

[bigsteve0000]

as I said cousins hubby was fraud investigater (still might be) when sis aproched him for advice this is how he said they work it out. they look at a boyfiend with his own address a visitor if he stays 3 nights a week or less anymore would affect her benifits and if he dosnt have another addres then they will class him as resident. our glen dose this for a living hes been their 25 years that I know of, if he says this is how they do itis he doing it wrong. plus dwp published guides we see and what they use internally are 2 diferent thing, I learnt this when the back to work grants first came in to been back in th 90s

[loopinlouie]

Fine, but when you state someone says this or that, its always best to link a reference to it in black and white. Hearsay sometimes is dangerous in that others may follow it as a rule untill its too late xx

[ErikaPNP]

They use the same guides which are published, bigsteve. There are no other guides - another myth.

 

There will always be in fraud guides some areas which are ommitted from public view because it gives examples on how to commit fraud thus could jeaopardise investigations however this information cannot be given to the public at all as it is exempt under section 31 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000. In the fraud guide (the attachment, not the DMG) I posted there is an ommission exempted - this is an internal document as you will see from the word "restricted" being on every page.

 

There is also a person viewing this thread who is (or was) a fraud investigator. I will not name them - that is up to them whether or not they choose to name themselves as such, however they have confirmed previously on other threads also that the 3 nights rule is a myth. I myself have dealt for a number of years with people struggling with their benefit claims including LTAHAW/CP potential frauds and I have yet to see the "three nights" that so many people believe to be true, be enough to free someone from prosecution. It's not enough because the rule doesn't exist and it never has - I am fairly au fait with this area. I put my hands up and admit that whenever I hear the "but I was told less than/no more than three nights was ok", I think immediately "Not this codswallop again". Yes, CAB advisors tell people it exists, yes JCP employees tell people it exists - I have witnessed this but I can tell you that if you press anyone to prove this they will not be able to because it simply does not exist and it never has.

 

Unless you or anyone else can link to something from the relevant legislation or fraud guidelines which negates from the verification already posted, I would strongly discourage anyone from taking this "three nights rule" as genuine. It's not.

[bigsteve0000]

They use the same guides which are published, bigsteve. There are no other guides - another myth.

 

as I said back to work grant in the mid 90s, the information released for public consumption and the info given to jobcetre staff was not exactly the same. I saw both copies.

 

wil try try to catch up with cousins hubby and get a handle on this.

[ErikaPNP]

Unless he can provide a weblink to a verifiable source, it's fruitless really.