travelodge smoking fine

[JonCris]

The simple fact is that no matter how they couch it they cannot 'fine' anyone nor can they arbitrarily charge you for allegedly smoking in their rooms no matter what their T's & C's may claim

 

Whilst a court might sympathise with their motives IMHO it WILL not permit them to make such a charge particularly as you have not been given an early opportunity to dispute their allegations. They should have confronted you at the time of your departure & only then would they be permitted to recover any cost in returning the room to its former condition

 

Tell them to refund your money & that failure to do so will result in your issuing proceedings

[perplexity]

Tell them to refund your money & that failure to do so will result in your issuing proceedings

 

On the strength of what?

 

If the hope is to invalidate the terms and conditions, please refer to the detail of something other that the Consumer Credit Act or explain how on Earth it would possibly apply, because I fail to see that it does.

 

If the crucial issue is the sending of a Breakdown of charges within 10 working days, that should never have to go to County Court to be sorted out.

 

Did they or did they not send as much? That would hinge on whether or not the evidence exists to show they did, so what exactly is their position on that account?

 

Do they admit, as a matter of fact, that "they failed to do this"? It is difficult to see why this is not already at an end if so.

 

[JonCris]

Their right to seek the genuine costs of reinstating the room to it's former condition are not in dispute. What is is the arbitrary way in which they made the charge. The OP was not given any right of reply nor any opportunity to establish his innocence until long after the event. The hotel should have inspected the room prior to his departure thereby giving him an opportunity to see & query the 'evidence' himself.

 

After all they could a) be making it up to improve profitability or b) an employee of the hotel knowing the occupant smoked could have done so in that room.

 

Also the fact that he does admit to be a smoker is to his benefit not the hotel as any smoker can vouch that even a smoker not smoking can stink up a room without even trying hence the so called 'evidence' being tainted

[samsmoot]

On the strength of what?

 

If the hope is to invalidate the terms and conditions, please refer to the detail of something other that the Consumer Credit Act or explain how on Earth it would possibly apply, because I fail to see that it does.

 

If the crucial issue is the sending of a Breakdown of charges within 10 working days, that should never have to go to County Court to be sorted out.

 

Did they or did they not send as much? That would hinge on whether or not the evidence exists to show they did, so what exactly is their position on that account?

 

Do they admit, as a matter of fact, that "they failed to do this"? It is difficult to see why this is not already at an end if so.

 

 

Compexity...er, I mean perplexity - JonCris's suggestion will move this forward: letter before action followed by action if no joy. Don't even know if it'll need any particular 'Head of Claim', but Breach of Contract would apply, don't you think?

 

So. berwyn, if you do need to know how to set about things, firstly write the letter stating the brief facts and that unless your money is refunded within 14 days you will make a claim in the County Court.

 

In the meantime, download an N1 Claim Form and explanatory notes from http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/HMCSCourtFinder/GetForm.do?court_forms_id=338 and the Fees leaflet from here http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/HMCSCourtFinder/GetLeaflet.do?court_leaflets_id=264

 

When you have done this I'll be more than happy to tell you what you should put on your claim form. Or perhaps someone else might do it for you.

 

 

 

'The language used on your claim form is often the only one they'll understand'

Edited July 5, 2010 by samsmoot

[berwyn]

I've already sent a letter of intent a while back,giving them until june 30th to re-imburse me.They replied by sending me a copy of the letter they should have sent me within 10 days of my stay.

[JonCris]

I've already sent a letter of intent a while back,giving them until june 30th to re-imburse me.They replied by sending me a copy of the letter they should have sent me within 10 days of my stay.

 

I'm sorry but even one day after you left invalidates their right to charge you

 

Most 'good' (& sensible) hotels, those not on the make that is, inspect the room as soon as you vacate but before you check out. This enables them to check its condition & the mini bar should one exist & whether or not you have nicked any towels

 

'fining' you long after the alleged event is a nonsense but one they no doubt get away with often

[samsmoot]

Get the forms and see if you want to pay the cost - which you get back if you win. I believe you can also claim loss of earnings if you have to take a day off work to attend a hearing.

 

Making a County Court claim is empowering if you win, and I think you will. To be honest, I don't think a claim will be defended - after all, there is no proof that you did what they say you did, and therefore no reason why you should be penalised. A County Court judge, I think, would lean towards giving judgement in your favour if he possibly can.

 

Your Brief Details of Claim should simply say that you wish to claim back the money that was wrongly taken from your account without prior agreement or good reason (or something a bit better - but you get my drift) - perhaps saying it's a breach of contract (not sure you need to, but I'd say it is a breach of contract - you agreed to pay X amount, yet was charged more).

 

Your Particulars of Claim should describe what happened in as much detail as necessary, but don't go on - be as concise as you can and use everyday language, but don't be emotional about it. List dates, conversations, letters sent and received etc.

 

You seem a competent enough writer to do this yourself, berwyn, so why not have a go, and post what you intend to say? Someone on here can suggest any corrections.

Edited July 5, 2010 by samsmoot

[perplexity]

I've already sent a letter of intent a while back,giving them until june 30th to re-imburse me.They replied by sending me a copy of the letter they should have sent me within 10 days of my stay.

 

I am not yet convinced that a letter was never sent to start with, as a matter of fact, for want of a reason to expect so. Whether or not a letter was received is another issue . Is there a proof, an apology, an admission to the very effect that the letter failed to happen?

 

If they come up with something to show that a letter was indeed sent, as would usually happen, as did happen before, you're up the creek without a paddle.

 

If they are not routinely accounting for themselves that of itself is a matter of some concern.

 

I'm sorry but even one day after you left invalidates their right to charge you

 

Do you expect a claimant to go to Court to insist that

 

"somebody on an internet forum told me that...."?

 

[halifaxtan]

does anyone think it's feasable for me to take them to small claims court.im really busy at work right now,so dont have much time to devote to it.im thinking of just accepting the fine right now

 

Take them to a small claims court and defend yourself. Here's why:

 

1) You can do it online.

 

2) Travelodge are big and disorganised. They probably won't reply within the 14 day limit and you'll win by default. I'd say there's a 75% chance of this outcome.

 

3) Even if they contest it and win they won't be awarded costs unless your claim was vexatious (and I don't see how). Their unawarded costs will be much more than your £150 fine.

 

4) If they do reply, it's likely it'll be to back down. Make sure they also pay your court fee in the settlement.

 

This is all about making profit. Another favourite [problem] of Travelodge's is to overbook, then try to move unaccommodated guests to a nearby, underbooked hotel giving a room flood or power cut as the reason. They then try to avoid paying compensation or a refund by citing Force Majeure!

 

They're absolutely notorious and quite disreputable. They rely on the fact that 99.9% of people will never contest this behaviour.

 

So go for it.

[berwyn]

i am about to take them to small claims court in the next couple of days.

 

 

If they come up with something to show that a letter was indeed sent, as would usually happen, as did happen before, you're up the creek without a paddle.

 

i didnt receive a letter from them until i requested a copy.they may well have posted one but unless it was recorded delivery they can't have proof.

[buzby]

Just as we can assert that a letter sent is expected to be delivered within 2 days, so can they - and sending a copy letter at a later stage is perfectly OK. As for billing a CC after the end of stay, I'm unaware of any such restriction, it has to be within a 'reasonable' timeframe.

[JonCris]

I am not yet convinced that a letter was never sent to start with, as a matter of fact, for want of a reason to expect so. Whether or not a letter was received is another issue . Is there a proof, an apology, an admission to the very effect that the letter failed to happen?

 

If they come up with something to show that a letter was indeed sent, as would usually happen, as did happen before, you're up the creek without a paddle.

 

If they are not routinely accounting for themselves that of itself is a matter of some concern.

 

 

 

Do you expect a claimant to go to Court to insist that

 

"somebody on an internet forum told me that...."?

 

 

 

Why not is your advice (which is all negative by the way & incorrect in law ) to be anymore trusted than mine

[JonCris]

Just as we can assert that a letter sent is expected to be delivered within 2 days, so can they - and sending a copy letter at a later stage is perfectly OK. As for billing a CC after the end of stay, I'm unaware of any such restriction, it has to be within a 'reasonable' timeframe.

 

Its wrong in law many car hire firms who bill customers for additional costs AFTER the car has been returned & it has not been checked in the presence of the hirer have been challenged & made by the courts to refund the money

 

For their CC to be enforceable the customer MUST be given the opportunity to dispute their allegation failing which their CC can be successfully challenged

 

Sending a letter after the evidence has been disposed of means said letter has no force in law

[MARTIN3030]

Take them to a small claims court and defend yourself. Here's why:

 

1) You can do it online.

 

2) Travelodge are big and disorganised. They probably won't reply within the 14 day limit and you'll win by default. I'd say there's a 75% chance of this outcome.

 

3) Even if they contest it and win they won't be awarded costs unless your claim was vexatious (and I don't see how). Their unawarded costs will be much more than your £150 fine.

 

4) If they do reply, it's likely it'll be to back down. Make sure they also pay your court fee in the settlement.

 

This is all about making profit. Another favourite [problem] of Travelodge's is to overbook, then try to move unaccommodated guests to a nearby, underbooked hotel giving a room flood or power cut as the reason. They then try to avoid paying compensation or a refund by citing Force Majeure!

 

They're absolutely notorious and quite disreputable. They rely on the fact that 99.9% of people will never contest this behaviour.

 

So go for it.

 

 

How can you say theres a 75% chance of a win by default ?

[JonCris]

Also forget the argument about when they sent the letter that's a red herring. It was sent after the event & after the 'evidence' was gone so has no force whatsoever..

 

Thought;) You could always demand to see the 'evidence'

[MARTIN3030]

Lets hope that you get a Judge who is a smoker

[JonCris]

With any litigation there's a risk but the OP doesn't want to pay their unfairly applied charge. So what should he do 'pay up & shut up' as some here seem to be suggesting or fight remember its because of the latter that sites like CAG exist.

 

I've always assumed that to NOT fight such unfairness/extortion wasn't in the CAG genes

[buzby]

Its wrong in law many car hire firms who bill customers for additional costs AFTER the car has been returned & it has not been checked in the presence of the hirer have been challenged & made by the courts to refund the money

 

For their CC to be enforceable the customer MUST be given the opportunity to dispute their allegation failing which their CC can be successfully challenged

 

Sending a letter after the evidence has been disposed of means said letter has no force in law

 

Try reading the advantageous terms hirers get as merchants foam the card companies. They have a week to close and terminate any lien on a hirers card, and it is perfectly legal!

[buzby]

With any litigation there's a risk but the OP doesn't want to pay their unfairly applied charge. So what should he do 'pay up & shut up' as some here seem to be suggesting or fight remember its because of the latter that sites like CAG exist.

 

I've always assumed that to NOT fight such unfairness/extortion wasn't in the CAG genes

 

You pick the battles you know you'll win. Unfairness is one thing, not seeing the disadvantages is another, so there's no point in cultivating a double disaster!

[MARTIN3030]

Raymond-as always lots of optimism-erm but why is it always for the OTHER side ?

[JonCris]

You pick the battles you know you'll win. Unfairness is one thing, not seeing the disadvantages is another, so there's no point in cultivating a double disaster!

 

 

Of course they do but it's on the assumption by the Card Company that the card holder has had an opportunity to dispute the charge AND that the 'evidence' was & is available to justify the charge

[MARTIN3030]

So pre action protocols seem to have been followed-evidence to pursue is for the most part there.

 

So all stations go.

Requests for disclosure under CPR could potentially support.

 

Though dont for a minute pre suppose Raymond will be onboard.

[buzby]

Since it all hinges on the judge.... Who knows? Havi g spent much time in court watching lots of civil actions, you get a flavour of the outcomes, and in disputes like these, the firms employ solicitors who know the rules against a LIP who doesn't. Of course, they don't always win but their success rate is higher as all their ducks are lined up. Losing more money by trying to prove you were unjustly treated in fine if you can afford it, but not otherwise.

[MARTIN3030]

Totally agree Raymond.

But its not just a case of the unfair treatment-theres the main matter of the OP being 150 quid out of pocket.

[buzby]

I'm not unsympathetic, but the action for recovery must always be taken with the knowledge that the loss could be greater should you lose, plus the possibility of costs awarded against you simply to fight the injustice.

 

The facts will have been lost in the mists of time, but unless I had some proof as to how I found then ledt the room witness or photos, I'd be tempted just to never patronise their establishment again, in line with all others who overcharge me or rip me off!