zenith windows/paragon personal finance

[ElMarinero]

Hi all,

I'm after a bit of advice on behalf of my grandmother involving an alleged debt going back to 1998.

 

My grandparents were going to have a couple of windows put in by Zenith Windows in 1998 and this was going to be financed by a Company called Paragon Personal Finance.

Some time later for some reason they never ever got the windows but this finance company insisted they still owed for them- some kind of contract clause perhaps protecting their interests if the windows sale fell through? I'm not sure. My nan has not kept any contracts or bills of sale as it was so long ago.

To be honest my grandad had terminal cancer at the time and he was normally the person that would deal with things like this, so matters were let slip.

 

My grandad before he died was made insolvent with some business partners of his so he took this debt and passed it onto the firm dealing with the insolvency for it to be wiped off.

However, the company soon found out my nan was not insolvent only my grandad and so they wiped his name off the debt and started chasing her.

 

Sadly my grandad died in 1999 and ever since then this company hounded my nan and she has been making payments to them ever since up until now. So we are talking 11 years and it is still not paid!

 

My mum accidently opened some of her mail today when I was there and we found it was a threatening letter from this Company tleling her that her so called 'account' was in arrears and they added £80.00 onto the balance in telephone call charges.

 

Firstly, what law in this country says a peron has to pay for goods or services they never actually recieved?

Secondly the debt is several years old and in actual fact, is it REALLY a debt?

How can my nan be in debt for windows that were supposed to be fitted 11 years ago and weren't fitted?

Also my nan is an elderly widow on a pension and she has obviously been a bit naive and has poor understanding of the whole thing.

I think it's disgusting!

 

So I have written a long letter and posted it by recorded delivery telling them the account is now in dispute and that the debt itself is questionable and I shall be sekeing legal advice etc.

I have also got my nan to sign to say that I am now her representative and she is not to be harrassed or caused any more distress.

I also said no further payments would be made, challenged their ridiculous charges for telephone calls and told them it was my intention to have my nan reimbursed for all her payments made so far possibly with interest on top if it is found this debt is not valid.

I also told them I would be contacting trading standards/OFT.

I insisted that she is not called by telephone and a note made on their system of this, that all contact is to be kept in writing and any letters found to be threatening will be kept to build a case of harrassment.

I also requested to see a copy of the signed contract or any bill of sale.

 

So what do you think of this so called debt? Does it sound valid and is there any legal clause in the UK for goods/services like this that says they still need to be paid for even though never recieved?

 

Additionally I would be so grateful if anybody could point me in the right direction with regards to what my next course of action should be.

Am I dealing with this correctly?

 

Many thanks in advance

[dx100uk]

totally ignore

statute barred by along shot.

 

dx

[Conniff]

The law does not say that you have to pay for goods not received. Stop any direct debits/standing orders etc; and go through everything in your grandparents paperwork to see if you can find any sort of contract etc:

 

I believe Paragon are not a finance company but an introduction company so they take money off you for doing absolutely nothing. I might be wrong but someone else will know.

 

As payments have continued, it won't be statute barred unless I have read you post wrong, so can you confirm that payments are still being made?

[dx100uk]

are yes sorry it does say making payments

 

missed that bit.

 

dx

[ElMarinero]

Hello and thanks.

Yes unfortunately she has been paying them- for 11 years and still allegedly owes a lot more, in the thousands range.

Thats a pretty expensive set of windows made from thin air right?

I did think myself if communication and payment was being made the debt cannot be statue barred.

 

It is so annoying to think she has stood for this and paid them all these years for absolutely nothing.

I am hoping there may be some way in which she can get these payments refunded as she was effectively bullied into paying.

 

Sadly she has not kept anything back from zenith windows or any bills of sale contracts etc so I have written asking this company for a copy.

 

I just wish I knew about this sooner!

 

Thanks.

[dx100uk]

spotted the telling bone fees though.

i wonder what others stuff they have charged for.

 

looks like they have been fleecing her for years, nasty buggers. praying on the old.

 

i really do hope you are successful in getting all the payments back.

 

i think the elderly pensioner fleecing part might well be the only pressure [nasty publicity] that you have to getting anywhere.

 

i dont know where, but i've seen it, there is a link to 'ask dom' the guy that is on the one show about consumer issues and the dodgy builders.

 

i know he will be VERY interested in this case.

 

dx

[dx100uk]

i'd SAR them too

force their arm on every scrap of info they have

 

dx

[Conniff]

i'd SAR them too

force their arm on every scrap of info they have

 

dx

 

That was going to be my suggestion as well. With a sar there is no getting out of a reply and sending you what is required. Will cost you £10 but the best £10 you will ever spend.

 

You need to get the thinking caps on and work out exactly how much has been paid so you are prepared when the time comes to claim it all back.

 

If you don't receive anything from them, then the account is in dispute and you can stop paying.

[ElMarinero]

Thanks guys.

 

I'm going to print out a SAR this evening and get it sent off tomorrow.

Do I take it that when a SAR is requested they have to provide sttaments of account including any payments made/statements?

I don't really think my nan is totally 'with it'- she doesn't have a clue how much she's paid because it's been so long and I think after her husband died she gave up caring.

She has been paying by debit/credit card over the phone- I'm wondering whether we should now report her cards as lost/stolen in case they try to charge her card now they know I'll not be allowing any further payment.

 

Thanks for the advice, I will keep you updated as to what happens after the SAR and I'll take it from there.

 

dx100uk- I will certainly try to locate and bring thios to the attention of Dom, thanks.

[Conniff]

That would have to be your decision, personally I would report it lost and get it cancelled.

 

One other important thing. Use a postal order for the payment and don't sign the letter.

[dx100uk]

and don't forget to add 8% to EVERY payment from the date it was made to the date of your claim.

that would be what a court would allow.

 

i really think you can go places with this.

 

please keep us informed.

 

dx

[ElMarinero]

Hi Guys,

On looking at some paperwork today I discovered Paragon Personal finance seem to be handling this so called 'debt' on behalf of an original creditor named Universal Credit LTD.

I have done the SAR addressed to paragon, also my letter yesterday.

Do you think this will suffice or will I need to send these also to Universal credit- never heard of these and not sure where to obtain an address.

I would ahve thought the broker, Paragon, would ahve all the info on my Nan and the account seeing as they are the ones providing statements and asking for payment.

Thanks

[ElMarinero]

Hi Guys,

I'm back with an update but the situation has changed completely!

 

Basically I sent a SAR and have today recieved all the documentation.

 

It looks like my nan has got herself mixed up with a few key things but at the same time I question the debt's validity as it is extremely old.

 

From my findings from the SAR it would appear this was a personal loan for £5000,00 and it was actually taken out in July 1990, 20 years ago!

So it would appear this was a loan for something else- not for the windows which is something entirely different.

My poor nan's memory is failing her a bit I guess. But who can blame her with it being a 20 year old debt!

 

Anyway I have a photocopy of the agreement signed by both my grandparents. The details as follows:

 

Protected payment premium: £487.50

AMount of Loan: £5000

Total Loan; £5487.50

Monthly repayment: £163.33

Rate of interest per annum variable: 25.7%

Annual percentage rate of charge variable: 28.9%

Number of monthly repayments variable: 60

 

signed and dated 16/07/90

 

As you know my grandad died in 1999. This debt was to be put into an IVA he had before he died and was going to go ahead until they discovered my nan wasn't part of the IVA and challenged her solely for the debt!

After he died my nan tried to get the payment protection insurance/life cover they had on the loan to write off the rest of the balance but apparently the loan term had over-run due to them having fell into financial difficulty and were making reduced payments and so they refused to write it off and have pursued my nan ever since.

They know she is only on a state pension and my grandad's small private pension and as I udnerstand she was up until recently paying £15 per month but between them my grandad and her paid a hell of a lot over the years- the exact amount I am going to have to calculate manually.

 

I have a list of all the payments credited to the account and as soon as a payment is made the amount rockets with interest (which i don't understand) so that the balance never really reduces.

I have papers of about 5inches thick showing payments made yet her balance is still just under 2k for a 5k loan 20 years ago!

 

Ok so what I need to know guys is:

 

is this debt legit?

Should my nan keep paying or not?

Do we have any loopholes to get this debt written off?

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks

[sillygirl1]

She should STOP paying and you should get somebody from CAB and Trading Standards involved in this, if your grandad had it as part of the IVA it should have stopped on his death, there is NO way they should be chasing your Grandma.

 

Why not try Tony Heatherington at the Daily Mail, I bet he would jump all over Paragon for this.

[dx100uk]

wow

i suspected they had been fleeced but not to that extent.

thats downright greed.

 

i'd give them one change

total up all the payments she has made and when

then add 8% to each from day of paying to day of claim.

 

and post off a letter demanding that lot baCk or you are off to the press with it.

 

dx

[Conniff]

Yep - calculate how much has been paid and if equals or exceeds £5,000 then stop paying. They haven't lost anything, well maybe their ego a bit.

 

She would definately come out on top anyway if they decided to take it further.

[ElMarinero]

Thanks guys.

 

Sillygirl1:My grandad wanted to put this debt in with his IVA and it was going to go ahead until they realised at the last minute that my nan was not named in the IVA and it was his alone.

They then refused to allow the debt to be put in with the IVA and pursued my nan alone for it, so it never went into the IVA.

They also refused to write it off after grandad died because the loan term and life insurance/ppi had long expired.

 

As I say, the original agreement was 60 payments of £163.33 which would make the total amount owing under the agreement £9799.80

 

I have just sat and trawled through the payments and she has paid £8645.44.

So as the original amount owed was £9799.80 it would suggest she owes another £1154.36 under the original agreement.

So she hasn't overpaid on the agreement.

 

They claim she still owes them a further £1527.73- the extra £373.37 is charges for telephone calls, letters and returned payments.

 

She was (until i stepped in) paying them £28.00 per month but was struggling to maintain it.

In their latest letter with the SAR they have offered to accept payments of £15.00 per month.

This would mean she's have around 101.8 payments to make- if she lives another 8 years!

 

So it seems I can't claim she has overpaid because she's not yet paid the full contractual amount owing.

 

Is there any other loophole I can use to get the debt written off?

It's ridiculous. She will most probably pass away before she pays it off and it's already 20 years old.

If she carried on with £15.00 payments it'd take it to 28 years old!

 

Really it should have been placed into the IVA my grandad had. He was the one working with the income- it doesn't seem right they can still legally pursue his wife even if it was joint, she had no income.

He was the breadwinner.

Can I use this arguement?

If I could, I could then calculate interest on the payments she made after his death and threaten court/press action if they don't write the balance off?

 

What kind of outcome should I be pushing for here?

 

Many Thanks again

[Conniff]

I would personally stop paying. She can't be worried about any bad marks on her credit reference now, so let them take her to court. She will then be able to show with the help of a budget sheet that she can only afford £1 per month and it would probably be agreed.

 

I have seen payments ordered for this amount.

[dx100uk]

you can claim back the PPI and ALL those unlawful charges [the extra £373.37 is charges for telephone calls, letters and returned payments.]

 

that will easily clear the bal & give her some money back.

 

dx