Paypal Dispute - Help Needed!

[bullion]

Hi Ladies and Gents,

 

Been lurking around for a while but really need to pick your brains now...

 

It's quite a long one, so bear with me.

 

Over a month ago, I sold a ring to a guy in Belgium via eBay. Everything went well, he paid by PayPal, I posted the ring out to him, he received it. I then received an Email from him saying the ring wasn't as described. After checking it out, I realised that he was right and that I had actually made a mistake in the listing (copied the details off the H-Samual website, but used a similar rings details) Oops! No problem I thought. I offered him a full refund on receipt of the ring back in England and a full apology.

 

Weeks passed by and I still hadn't received the ring back, so the buyer opened a PayPal dispute as he hadn't received a refund.

 

After weeks of communication, it turns out that the buyer hadn't insured the ring on it's return journey back to England, but because he provided a valid tracking number, he has won the case and Paypal have refunded his money.

 

The tracking number he provided is still showing as 'in dispatching in foreign country' on the Belgium post offices website, not 'delivered' but apparently that is all PayPal require.

 

I am now left without a ring and without my money.

 

I have contacted Paypal and Royal Mail and neither of the are interested. The buyer won't even contact his postal company as he didn't insure the parcel, so they wont care either.

 

Something about this whole situation seems grossly unfair. Surely it was the buyers responsibility to ensure the item arrived back to me safe, and if he chose not insure the parcel, shouldn't he be the one liable for the loss?

 

I'm at a loss at the minute and don't know which direction to turn in...

 

If anyone can give me any advice, it would be greatly appreciated.

 

Cheers,

[JimmySpangle]

I will save you a whole pile of trouble here. You have lost your money. End of.

[bullion]

Why is that?

 

Can you explain a bit further?

[JimmySpangle]

Yes, no problem. You sent an item to Belgium (Big mistake!). They then sent it back, you didn't get it but that isn't his problem anymore as Paypal have kindly refunded him. What are you going to do? Nada. There is nothing you can do. Take it on the chin, never ever send anything abroad again and move on.

 

Sorry that it sounds brutal, but you have been well and truly tucked up. The usual one is the empty envelope that arrives back! Trust me, I have been there, bought the Tee shirt, got the carry bag.

 

Paypal could not giving a frying fruck what happens.

 

Sorry for your loss of money, but don't waste another second on it.

[buzby]

It's a shame your buyer isn't helping. PP can be pretty arbitrary at deciding when to refund, but do usually wait for the tracking flag to show delivered (although, it could have been delivered anywhere).

 

There is a basic level of compensation for all EU mail, but only the sender can initiate this (usually) and without his assistance this route is denied to you. It might be worth at least trying to report a missing item, the reference number you have could be simply bogus - (a UK RM Recorded Delivery number will say it is in transit, until the delivery point shows it as delivered, so if he was out to defraud, a tracking slip number is good misdirection if he was out to defraud/

 

That said, I've had mail that has taken 2 months to arrive, so don't abandon hope yet.

[WelshMam2009]

I've also heard stories of people sending bricks and the likes back and, because they have proof of postage, have won their PP disputes, even though it's clearly fraud.

 

Fingers crossed, the buyer did genuinely return the item and it will show up eventually as Buzby says. I don't think you'll get anywhere with PP and will just have to chalk it up to experience I'm afraid.

[perplexity]

(6) of section 17 of the UK Distance Selling Regulations provides that

 

Where the consumer delivers the goods in accordance with paragraph (5)(a), his obligation to take care of the goods shall cease; and if he sends the goods in accordance with paragraph (5)(b), he shall be under a duty to take reasonable care to see that they are received by the supplier and not damaged in transit, but in other respects his duty to take care of the goods shall cease when he sends them.

It is thus a somewhat grey area, the extent to which the duty of care extends to ensuring that a seller receives the goods that a buyer returns.

 

Mind you, instead of resorting to Paypal, a buyer could demand a refund while refusing to return the goods, seeing that (4) of section 17 of the Regulations provides that

 

The consumer shall not be under any duty to deliver the goods except at his own premises and in pursuance of a request in writing, or in another durable medium available and accessible to the consumer, from the supplier and given to the consumer either before, or at the time when, the goods are collected from those premises.

 

And then again, the rules about returning goods differ from one member state of the EU to another, and I don't know what would usually happen in Belgium.

Edited March 8, 2010 by perplexity

[buzby]

Also worth remembering that DSR does not apply to consumers selling on eBay. Only if they are a business.

[ClampingKing]

100% spot on.

[ashmk]

I have to agree. You have been scammed and Paypal do not care. All you can do now it make sure everyone you know is aware of how unsafe paypal and that it should be avoided at all costs and move on.

[perplexity]

A consumer who sells on eBay?

 

Every one of the members who sell on eBay is a consumer of the eBay service, so what is that supposed to mean? If you proceed to a Paypal dispute all the listings and all the members are treated on the same basis, and so they should be, bound by same contractual terms, the contractual terms that the Distance Selling Regulations apply to. Above all else, the Distance Selling Regulations apply to the eBay User Agreement, which all the members are therefore bound by.

 

In case of doubt, section 210 of the Enterprise Act defines a consumer, who is clearly an individual who seeks to be supplied to or is supplied to, and a business is defined by 8.© of 210 as including "any undertaking in the course of which goods or services are supplied otherwise than free of charge."

 

Enterprise Act 2002 (c. 40)

 

Since when was the use of eBay or Paypal not an undertaking in the course of which goods or services are supplied otherwise than free of charge?

[buzby]

Every one of the members who sell on eBay is a consumer of the eBay service, so what is that supposed to mean??

 

A 'Consumer' is defined in law - not your all-embracing (mis)understanding of what it means. eBay has private and business sellers - all easily checkable, and as such, my original comment stands.

[perplexity]

My point is exactly that a "consumer" is defined in law, defined by section 210 of the Enterprise Act, which is the law, provided especially for the purpose of enforcement, seeing that 212(4) of the Act requires that a reference to a consumer protection Directive must be construed in accordance with section 210.

[paulok123]

Did someone say thats life!No thats paypal.Deal with these creatures at your peril.

[perplexity]

I fear that this indeed is the attitude of the authorities nowadays: if you use eBay or Paypal and you get into trouble it serves you right.

 

Victims complain that they went to the Police to report an offence and the Police did not want to know, as soon as "eBay" is mentioned.

[buzby]

That's IF you get in trouble,

 

Whilst I have no wish to boast, in the last 9 years they have processed over 1,350 transactions fir me as a buyer and a seller, with 100% satisfaction rate. Even if they fail me down the line, that's still a better average than my CC provider.

[perplexity]

Would Paypal "protection" ever have come about except that CC chargebacks were going to happen anyway?

 

I doubt it.

 

If a seller does well on eBay I credit the success to the seller, not to eBay, which is not to say that it's a credit, to sell on eBay. I could lose friends if they thought I did.

 

[buzby]

Of course it would. Chargebacks were only covered for s75 transactions, and not for Debit Cards at all... so it wasa pretty big improvement.

 

Do also remember that Visa provides cover in circumstances that Mastercard do not, making it (MC) consumer unfriendly.

[perplexity]

I am remembering that it all changed when eBay acquired Paypal, which is to suggest that there was no incentive for what's been happening with Paypal except to conspire with eBay to monopolise the market.

 

In the early days eBay advised the members not to use Paypal.

[andydd]

Although Ebay do try and promote cross-country selling, I Never sell overseas, not matter how much they beg, I do occasionally buy from abroad, sometimes there are great offers from HK and china and maybe the states. I still use Paypal but you have to be very careful !

 

Andy

[ClampingKing]

Unless you are registered with ebay as a business, you are a consumer.

 

You can of course take PayPal to court for paying someone they should not have. PayPal are supposed to wait for delivery for obvious reasons.

 

By the way, don't bother. Stop replying to this, stop stressing, move on and enjoy life.

 

Anyone want to buy a cheap ring by the way?

[perplexity]

Paypal are not supposed to wait for delivery for the obvious reason that section 13.9 of the Paypal User Agreement provides that

 

PayPal retains full discretion to make a final decision in favour of the buyer or the seller based on any criteria PayPal deems appropriate.

 

If you don't agree with that, don't use Paypal.

 

[WelshMam2009]

 

PayPal retains full discretion to make a final decision in favour of the buyer or the seller based on any criteria PayPal deems appropriate.

 

 

...or in layman's terms...PayPal is Judge, Jury and Executioner...and stuff any laws of the land!!

[perplexity]

The good news is that nothing that eBay or Paypal do or say affects your right as a consumer to sue a seller on your own behalf, or vise versa, whatever the outcome of a Paypal claim.

 

There's an assumption of rights clause which means that if Paypal pay out a cliam, Paypal is entitled to claim the money from a seller, but it should not affect any further than that.

[Mrs E Blackadder]

Even when you put in your listing, in huge great red letters, 'I do not sell to overseas', buyers just ignore it and bid anyway. If this happens to me, I usually charge them for insured and tracked mail. If they don't like the cost then I point out to them that they were not invited to bid on my item, and they are welcome to a refund. I wish there was a way of blocking overseas buyers. Ebay used to be a good way to get rid of your old 'junk', but they have now geared it up in favour of business sellers - because that way they can hand any responsibilty for sales over to the sellers and absolve themselves of any interest in the transaction. Paypal also seems to refund any buyer who complains, even when you have posted goods by a trackable service and can prove it was delivered. The buyer only has to say 'well, it wasn't delivered to me' and Paypal give them your money!!

 

By the sounds of the ring problem, it could well still turn up. He might not have sent it by airmail, so it might be stuck on a train/boat somewhere, taking its time to get here. If a tracking number has been provided then there is a good chance that 'something' has been posted back. Unfortunately, Paypal are too quick to refund and often won't even wait the length of time specified by the carrier. I had someone complain that their goods hadn't been received - after just 3 days! After 7 days, Paypal refunded her the money,even though Royal Mail say they don't consider a tracked item lost until after 15 days. Through a series of strange events, I later found out that the item had been delivered, and did manage to get the buyer to pay up again - but I was just lucky on that occassion.