Councils Refusing to take back a Council Tax Debt

[Blindsamuri]

Hi

 

In my ongoing battle with the local debt collection company I often come back to these forums to see if there is any new way to deal with the knock on the door.

 

I often read in posts of people just like me who have got a council tax debt, want to pay but are refusing to pay the bailiffs due to the charges they are trying to add. It seems a lot of people like me want to pay the council and the councils are refusing.

 

I would like advice on the following paragraph which is paragraph 3 from

 

THE COUNCIL TAX (ADMINISTRATION & ENFORCEMENT) REGULATIONS 1992

AS AMENDED BY

THE COUNCIL TAX (ADMINISTRATION & ENFORCEMENT) (AMENDMENT) (NO.2) REGULATIONS 1993,

THE COUNCIL TAX (ADMINISTRATION & ENFORCEMENT) (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS 1998

AND

THE COUNCIL TAX (ADMINISTRATION & ENFORCEMENT) (AMENDMENT) (NO.2) (ENGLAND) REGULATIONS 2003

 

REGULATION 14 AND REGULATION 45 - DISTRESS

 

(3) If, before any goods are seized, the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender)

is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount and the levy shall not be proceeded with.

 

 

Now if I'm reading that right the council must take the debt back from bailiffs even if the bailiffs have visited.

 

Thanks

[ploddertom]

Hi

 

In my ongoing battle with the local debt collection company I often come back to these forums to see if there is any new way to deal with the knock on the door.

 

I often read in posts of people just like me who have got a council tax debt, want to pay but are refusing to pay the bailiffs due to the charges they are trying to add. It seems a lot of people like me want to pay the council and the councils are refusing.

 

You can pay the Council direct using either their online or automated telephone service.

 

I would like advice on the following paragraph which is paragraph 3 from

 

THE COUNCIL TAX (ADMINISTRATION & ENFORCEMENT) REGULATIONS 1992

AS AMENDED BY

THE COUNCIL TAX (ADMINISTRATION & ENFORCEMENT) (AMENDMENT) (NO.2) REGULATIONS 1993,

THE COUNCIL TAX (ADMINISTRATION & ENFORCEMENT) (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS 1998

AND

THE COUNCIL TAX (ADMINISTRATION & ENFORCEMENT) (AMENDMENT) (NO.2) (ENGLAND) REGULATIONS 2003

 

REGULATION 14 AND REGULATION 45 - DISTRESS

 

(3) If, before any goods are seized, the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender)

is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount and the levy shall not be proceeded with.

 

 

Now if I'm reading that right the council must take the debt back from bailiffs even if the bailiffs have visited.

 

No - that means if you pay before the Bailiff calls then they can not charge you any fees. Payment may be made as said earlier.

 

Thanks

 

PT

[Blindsamuri]

Ok so am I misunderstanding the meaning of Levy?

 

To me the Levy would be a walking possession order on goods or items in the home or on a vehicle that the bailiffs can prove ownership of and that is not subject to HP or lease.

 

I'm not talking about not paying bailiffs fees.

 

The wording of paragraph 3 suggests the authority is obliged to accept payment or tender of payment if no levy or possession order is in place. Regardless of bailiffs visit fees which are fixed at a maximum of £42.50.

 

3) If, before any goods are seized, the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender)

is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount and the levy shall not be proceeded with.

 

I have read countless posts on this forum of people who say the councils refuse the deal with them. Does this paragraph not suggest that they can't?

[selinajayne]

baliliffs can charge what they like but i think you only have to pay for the first 2 visits.

the council took mine back but in order for that to happen you need to write or email your local mp. tell them whats happened and you want to pay and they should be able to get it refered back. i called the nation debt helpline about it all they sent me all the information on what i could do and my rights

[Blindsamuri]

Ok so thanks for the advice, however I think you are missing the point of my thread.

 

As previously mentioned I have read countless postings of people saying after the council have called the bailiffs in they have told many a poster that they will now have to deal with, arrange payment plans etc with the bailiff.

 

What I want to know is are they in breach of Regulation 14 & 45 Distress by refusing to deal with people once refered to a bailiff.

 

Just to make it clear I am more than comfortable with dealing with the bailiffs in my local area. This thread is more to claify if the council is in breach of regulation by refusing to deal with other posters.

 

Many Thanks

[selinajayne]

i dont know about that but i would imagine not. i would think they are within their rights to do that. i had a fine that got passed over to the bailifffs and the court will not deal with me at all after that.

[Blindsamuri]

Ok well thats what I want to know.

 

The paragraph comes from THE NON-DOMESTIC RATING (COLLECTION & ENFORCEMENT) (LOCAL LISTS) REGULATIONS 1989 AS AMENDED

BY

THE NON-DOMESTIC RATING (COLLECTION & ENFORCEMENT) (AMENDMENT & MISCELLANEOUS PROVISION)

REGULATIONS 1993,

 

THE NON-DOMESTIC RATING (COLLECTION & ENFORCEMENT) (LOCAL LISTS) (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS 1998

AND THE NON-DOMESTIC RATING (COLLECTION & ENFORCEMENT) (LOCAL LISTS) (AMENDMENT) (ENGLAND)

REGULATIONS 2003

 

THE COUNCIL TAX (ADMINISTRATION & ENFORCEMENT) REGULATIONS 1992

AS AMENDED BY

THE COUNCIL TAX (ADMINISTRATION & ENFORCEMENT) (AMENDMENT) (NO.2) REGULATIONS 1993,

THE COUNCIL TAX (ADMINISTRATION & ENFORCEMENT) (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS 1998

AND

THE COUNCIL TAX (ADMINISTRATION & ENFORCEMENT) (AMENDMENT) (NO.2) (ENGLAND) REGULATIONS 2003

 

And thats produced by HM Gov and I see paragraph 1a quoted all over this site

 

1A) Without prejudice to paragraph (8) below no person making a distress shall seize any goods of the debtor of any of the

following description:-

(a) such tools, books, vehicles and other items of equipment as are necessary to the debtor for use personally in his

employment, business or vocation;

(b) such clothing, bedding, furniture, household equipment and provisions as are necessary for satisfying the basic

domestic needs of the debtor and his family

 

So surely paragraph 3 must apply to councils refusing to deal with clients already refered to bailiffs.

[Blindsamuri]

And please note the phrasing used in paragraph 3

 

" the authority shall accept the amount"

[selinajayne]

im sorry im missing what your asking

[selinajayne]

the council wont refuse any payments but you will still have the bailffs call and their charges because they are in charge of your debt

[Blindsamuri]

Again to me paragraph 3 suggests that the council must again take control of the debt once the tender of payment has been made.

 

"and the levy shall not be proceeded with"

 

So if the bailiff keeps visiting with regards to that part of the debt thats harassment and a criminal matter.

 

Again I am not try to find a way out of the £42.50 bailiffs visit fees, more try to see if there is a legally defined way to make councils take control of the council tax debt once passed to a bailiff.

[selinajayne]

i think thats refering to the baillifs themselves. obviously if your making payments theres no need for a levy

[RaeUK]

I think confusion here comes from : 'before any goods are seized'

Am I right in thinking a levy effectively seizes goods but leaves them in situ? If so payment can be accepted by the council after the case has been passed on but before a levy is made. In which case the levy would not be proceeded with...

I think.

Rae.

[Blindsamuri]

Indeed however it seems from many other postings on this site that the councils are reluctant to return the debt from the bailiffs once it has been pasted. Surely the wording of paragraph 3 puts on onus on the Authority to take back control of the debt and stop the bailiffs visits.

 

I'll try to put in context.

 

You have had the first visit from the bailiffs they did not gain entry and they were unable to levy against an item outside the property (a car etc). You call the council to discuss but as other posters have stated they won't talk to you and just refer you to the bailiff and we all know they don't want anything except you money.

So at this time a levy is not enforce, you fees are the bailiff first visit fee of £24, your court fee and the original debt.

 

My thinking is that paragraph 3 forces the council even if they don't want to, to accept you offer of the original debt, and your court fee and stop any further action from the bailiff regarding this debt. And I can tell you from experience the bailiff is unlikely to keep harassing you for £24 if they know you know thats all they can get.

 

3) If, before any goods are seized, the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender)

is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount and the levy shall not be proceeded with.

 

Can anyone tell me if I have read and interpreted it correctly?

[RaeUK]

I haven't read the entire document and - understandably - am somewhat loathe to do so. Presuming there is no other legislative reason and taking that one paragraph as a self-contained element - and bearing in mind my strengths lie in English, not Law - then yes. That's how it reads. It is saying, apparently quite clearly, that where a case has gone to a bailiff but payment in full is made to the council - including any relevant bailiff visit fees - before a levy is made than the council should accept payment in full and the levy process cannot proceed.

I would be interested to see further comments on this and how it can be interpreted in an opposite manner.

Rae.

Edited February 25, 2010 by RaeUK
typoo

[Blindsamuri]

I would like to take my interpretation of paragraph 3 further and disagree slightly with a respondent to my thread.

 

Paragraph 3 does state paid or tendered, this could be interpreted as offer of payment in installments as well paid in full.

 

I find it very worrying that half a dozen of the threads on the first page are council tax related and that one of the first things most say are I called the council and they just didn't want to know.

 

I would very much hope someone with some proper legal knowledge of REGULATION 14 AND REGULATION 45 - DISTRESS will get involved and clarify if there is a legal standpoint here that many people are missing and many councils are ignoring.

[Barbarawoo]

I can see what you mean " the authority shall accept the amount"

 

This meaning they can not refuse to take it back, makes sense in the written form but does not seem to be that way in reality but do agree where you are comming from.

[RaeUK]

I wouldn't necessarily accept that, in this context, 'tender' or 'tendered' would equate to payment by installment.

 

Tender - offer or present for acceptance / bid: a formal proposal to purchase at a specified price / offer: propose a payment

 

I would suggest that giving a cheque to cover full payment would constitute tender as it is not cleared funds there and then.

 

But you are correct in thinking a legal mind is required...

 

Rae.

[Blindsamuri]

Ok agreed I can not infer payment by installment.

 

So lets bring some common sense into the argument.

 

The council wants the money paid, so they've bought in bailiffs, they can't get anywhere because they can't levy. You go back to the council with a legal stand point the makes them take the debt back, and I'm not pulling this regulation from some old and dusty law box this is often attached to the Schedule 5 document on many .gov sites. The ball is very much in your court at this point, I for one would be inclined to think a sensible council finance officer would be willing to take what they can get.

 

I realise that this has now strayed in the realm conjecture and requires a specific set of circumstances. But.....

[RaeUK]

My personal view is that it should work - given the caveats I made earlier - for a person able to make payment in full. I would be interested to see someone use this.

I don't believe it would work for installments as, generally speaking and for whatever reason, the council will have evidence this method did not work in the past.

Likewise there is diminished scope for negotiation.

I do not believe that councils are unaware of how bailiffs operate and the insidious ways they blackmail large sums of money from those who cannot afford it by forcing them further into debt or intimidate those who can into paying. That is why our democratically elected councils use them.

However, those who are in genuine need and are vulnerable have some protection within the National Standards for Enforcement Agents. Although sometimes difficult it is an increasingly successful method of getting cases away from bailiffs.

Rae.

[selinajayne]

if the baillifs cant make a levy on your goods and try to gain entry a few times but dont succeed they hand the debt back to the council.

you dont have to pay the amount to the bailiffs you can pay it all to the council and they will except your money regardless

[K3NNY]

Ive got a meeting with a council tax officer tomorrow i will ask the question.

They have hit me for a council tax bill for 4 weeks from 2004 £87 quid with costs of £73 which i was unaware of until last week.

an additional bill for feb 09 to aug 09 fro £737 the council tax was in someone elses name i was unaware JACOBS INVOLVED

a bill for jan 2010 to date for £265 again unaware.

and to top it off a bill for 1354 for april 2010 - april 2011

the strange thing is i no longer live at the address and havent since august 09 and the council are fully aware of who is liable for the council tax MY EX

i have never been the person responsible for the council tax my wife was / is.

She has never changed the details

when i asked the council who changed the details they said they could not discuss it???????

i asked my wife she said she didnt

i asked the council why not they replied its private and confidential

they cannot discuss

i asked them if i can take my name off the bill they said no

i asked them if i could put someone elses name on the bill they said no

i asked then how the hell did my name get on there then because i certainly didnt request it???????

silence fell when the penny dropped what they were saying was utter rubbish.

cant wait for the morning see them squirm out of this one.

to clarify

we both own the property

we split up

we occasionaly flip properties

i pay the council tax on 1 she the other

simple

bill me for address 1

bill my ex for address 2

confused !!

anyway i will ask that question about the payment to get the order back from Jacobs.

to the council

[K3NNY]

Oh by the way an installment plan request is a TENDER.

(3) If, before any goods are seized, the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender)

is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount and the levy shall not be proceeded with.

[K3NNY]

Latin tendere, present active infinitive of tendō.

[edit] Verb

 

Latin tendere, present active infinitive of tendō.

[edit] Verb

 

tender (first-person singular present tiendo, first-person singular preterite tendí, past participle tendido)

1. (transitive) to spread, to stretch outtender (first-person singular present tiendo, first-person singular preterite tendí, past participle tendido)
   

1. (transitive) to spread, to stretch out
   

[K3NNY]

We All Know These Courtroom People Talk In Latin

So Here Is The Translation In Latin above