CCJ that has been sold

[Allwood]

My partner has been been paying £1 a month for a ccj since 2000..It was sold last year to Intrum Justin and they sent my partner a letter advising this. My partner was told that everything would stay the same regarding how payments were made. Recently my partner has recevied letter from HL Collectons solicitors stating that payment must be sent to them, and they do not provide a paying book receips like the ones before they took over.

 

My partners has written so many times to HL Collections asking for a paying book but they said no and that they want payment either by postal order or cheque or pay them on line.

 

My partner also asked HL collections for a copy of the CCA agreement that their client Intrum Justin purchased from the OC recently. HL collections has completely ignonred this request in letters that my partner has sent them.

 

My partner was told in writing that everything would remain the same when the CCJ was sold to Intrum Justin but obvious this is not the case as things has change by way of how payments are now been asked to be paid. My partner was very ill when the notice of CCJ was received in 2000 and now cannot remember what took place then, therefore it is not unreasonable to request a paying in book or a copy of the CCA that was purchased by Intrum Justin or is this an unreasonable request.

[spamheed]

My partner has been been paying £1 a month for a ccj since 2000..It was sold last year to Intrum Justin and they sent my partner a letter advising this. My partner was told that everything would stay the same regarding how payments were made. Recently my partner has recevied letter from HL Collectons solicitors stating that payment must be sent to them, and they do not provide a paying book receips like the ones before they took over.

 

My partners has written so many times to HL Collections asking for a paying book but they said no and that they want payment either by postal order or cheque or pay them on line.

 

My partner also asked HL collections for a copy of the CCA agreement that their client Intrum Justin purchased from the OC recently. HL collections has completely ignonred this request in letters that my partner has sent them.

 

My partner was told in writing that everything would remain the same when the CCJ was sold to Intrum Justin but obvious this is not the case as things has change by way of how payments are now been asked to be paid. My partner was very ill when the notice of CCJ was received in 2000 and now cannot remember what took place then, therefore it is not unreasonable to request a paying in book or a copy of the CCA that was purchased by Intrum Justin or is this an unreasonable request.

 

If a debt is sold to another dca, then it would not be unusual for the new dca to specify its own preference of payment method. Not all DCAs offer payment books to debtors as standard.

 

Reasonable behaviour is very much in the eye of the beholder, and if they are offering an alternative repayment method, then it could be seen as reasonable.

 

However they have stated in writing that all will stay the same with regards to your paying the monies, then it would be deemed unreasonable of them to impose a change such as this. Is it a real difficulty to set up a standing order, or pay via chq etc? or is it a matter of principle?

 

In the first instance, write to them requesting a copy of their formal complaints procedure

 

Since the debt is subject to a CCJ, then although the CCA is still relavent, they are enforcing the CCJ and not the CCA. you should be requesting a copy of the order of the court.

 

My opinion is that I have long queried the legality of this selling on of court judgements, since the cca allows for a debt to be sold/transferred a CCJ is an order made by a judge for one party to pay monies to another party, since this is not a financial agreement, but a court order, I don't believe that there is a stipulation in law which allows either party to be changed without first obtaining the permission of the courts

 

Was the repayment of £1 per month made at the order of the judge, or via an agreement with the creditor?

[palomino]

You say a judgment was made [in 2000]. That will have ordered your partner to pay a certain sum to the claimant. From the sounds of it this was by way of a monthly payment of £1.

Did the judgment order an payments to be made to Intrum Justicia? Did the judgment order any payments to be made to HL Collections?

Do you have anything in writing from the original claimant saying you should be paying someone else. If you do then keep it very safe. You mention 'they' sent you a letter advising this - are 'they' the original claimant or Intrum Justicia?

 

The issue of a credit agreement is irrelevant once a judgment has been made. It is this judgment that is being enforced, not the original debt (if you see what I mean). If you wish to dispute the matter then the court is who you have to dispute it with.

Sadly, after this length of time [9 - 10 years] and all the payments you have made, any attempt at this stage to dispute the matter will fail. The court will take the view that if you were going to dispute the matter you should have done so at the time or reasonably soon afterwards.

[jimbo45]

Hi there

a CCJ specifies that the DEBTOR must pay the CREDITOR (nobody else) an amount XXXXXXX.

 

The CREDITOR can use an agent for example their solicitors for you to pay the court judgement to --- BUT NOBODY ELSE.

 

The CCJ will state clearly that you must pay XXXXXXX.

 

If YYYY has "bought" the debt then YYYY must still get it from XXXXXX.

 

A CCJ is a COURT judgement. - Debts can only be bought and sold as commodities if they belong to the people buying and selling them.

 

If the conditions of a CCJ need to be changed such as amount of payment agreed etc then its UP TO THE COURT to decide not the original CREDITOR.

 

The Original creditor can only take actions if the CCJ is not being complied with -- the normal issue being an Interim Charging Order if there is property involved.

 

Cheers

jimbo

[harrassed senior]

Thank you for that concise and clear explanation. I do not want to 'hijack' this thread, but have a similar situation where the CCJ shows clearly on my Credit Files as owing to X. This has since been sold to Y who have also entered a default on my Credit Files. I have not been able to make payments to either party and at this moment in time have not had any contact from either for over 2 years, so I have chosen to 'let sleeping dogs lie' but an interesting explanation perhaps for the future. Thank you.

[spamheed]

there seems to be a number of similar stories on here at the moment

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/248110-hearing-application-question.html#post2779354

[PriorityOne]

Intrum Justicia have been known to lie about the existence of a CCJ as well....

 

Even if there was a CCJ, the onus is on IJ to prove this to you....

[Allwood]

Thanks everyone for helpful replies. I should clarify a few points.

 

The ccj, as mentioned in my frist post was in 2000 it was with Gus aka Choice a catalogue company. The court agreed in 2000 that a £1 a month should be the payments... made payable to Geoffrey Parker Bourne solicitors and a paying book provided by GPB to make payments to them.

 

Last year the ccj was taken over by Intruim Justin and my partner contacted the court about this as there was no notice given prior to this happening. My partners was advised by Intruim Justin that everything would stay the same ie paying the same solicitors and the same rate a month.

 

Now everything has changes new solicitors HL collections has taken over the payments and they will not supply a paying slips book like gthe one supplied since 2000. Also, as the ccj must have been sold from gus (choice) and surely in order to do this there must have been some short of agreement for the transfer to taken place. However when my partners asked for a copy of it HL collections completely ignores it and the same when requests has been made for a paying in book. the only replied a couple of days ago saying that they do not supplies paying in books and my partners can pay either PO or cheque or online.

 

My partner will look for the details that was received from the court last year and I will post it up later.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Allwood

[PriorityOne]

GPB solicitors are "in bed" with Intrum Justicia anyway.... and the fact that it's been passed to HL suggests it's been sold on, perhaps because they've got sick of collecting token payments on it.

 

A CCJ isn't sold in itself.... a debt is sold with a CCJ attached, which is a different thing altogether. So.... the onus is on HL to provide evidence of the CCJ they claim exists.

[the tinkerman]

Hi Allwood

havin more or less same probs as ur self re Hearing Of Aplication post.

Quick question when the solicitors changed did the new one take it back to Court to have that done and did u get a Notice of change of Solicitors from the Court!

[cerberusalert]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/113992-more-problems-moorcroft-advice.html see post #13

They were also concerned about the issue surrounding the creditor apparently "selling off" the CCJ to a debt collection agency. As far as they are aware this cannot happen, unless ordered by the court. In doing so the creditor may have acted unlawfully..."

[Allwood]

GPB solicitors are "in bed" with Intrum Justicia anyway.... and the fact that it's been passed to HL suggests it's been sold on, perhaps because they've got sick of collecting token payments on it.

 

A CCJ isn't sold in itself.... a debt is sold with a CCJ attached, which is a different thing altogether. So.... the onus is on HL to provide evidence of the CCJ they claim exists.

My partner first received a letter from Credit Account Management and a statement of account which was totally incorrect all payments were less than what was paid as well as total balance was more much more than what was still owed.

 

http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac76/peigi100/newcopyforphotobucket.jpg

 

As a result of that letter decided to write to the court as could not make out what the letter related to...she then to letter another letter was sent to her from SDFS, in this letter it has the correct details of account that was remaining. It also said that my partners account was legally assigned to Phoenix Recoveries in March 2007 This letter also said under paragraph what to do next? It said that payments should continue to be paid to GPB.

 

http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac76/peigi100/copy2001.jpg

 

Next a letter was received from HL Solicitors stating that are now instructed by Intrum Justitia to act on their behalf. All payments should be made to them but no mentioned of how it should be paid, they also said that the existing payments set by the court would be subject to a review after 3 months.

http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac76/peigi100/copy5001-1.jpg

 

My partner has written to HL many times asking for a payment book as well as a copy of the legal assignment to no avail they have completely ignored her requests and now they say that payment should be made online.

Can my partner refuse to pay until HL send her a true copy of the legal assignment mentioned in FDFS letter as well as a payment book from HL Collections.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Allwood

[PriorityOne]

I would write to HL (copy to IJ) and ask for proof of the CCJ they claim exists; dates, payments, etc.... and the legal authority that says that you should be now be making payments to them under a CCJ, including a copy of any alleged documentation that shows the alleged balance upon transfer/sale. You're also entitled to receive a full Statement of Account.

 

If your letters haven't gone by rec. delivery in the past, then the chances are that they'd be ignored anyway. In any case, you won't get a copy of a Deed of Assignment, but they'll need to provide some kind of proof to you nevertheless.

[Allwood]

The CCJ was from Nothingham bulk bank and my partners thinks she got a form from the court and she was so ill at the time she probably signed it. But she is now sure that there was no debt owed to these people whatsoever. She remembers writting on the court form in 2000 that she was ill and gave details of her outgoings and income.

 

She has been paying the ccj since 2000 without any problems until recently when it was transferred to HL. These people will not provide a payment book and also refused to give her any details of the CCJ that they say was assigned to their client in 2007.

 

She is now thinking of writing to the court stating that these people are not complying with her request. Also they should have a copy of the assignment that they say was legally assigned to them in 2007 but they will not let her have a copy of it or even give her a reason why they refused to do so.

[the tinkerman]

Funnily enough Allwood

In my case to the Original Solicitor was Geoffrey Parker Bourne but when the solicitors changed hands from one to another as mine did in the first year the CCJ had been granted I got a Notice of change of Solicitors from the Court! Attached to a letter from the new solicitors informing me this had happened so to me that is what have should have happened in your case & that is Just for a Change of solicitors Irrespective of the bigger picture being the actual legality of the assignment.

As priority one state ask them for proof of anything and everything that gives them the right to collect on this CCJ, also whom is ur payment going to at the moment.

[PriorityOne]

 

She has been paying the ccj since 2000 without any problems until recently when it was transferred to HL. These people will not provide a payment book and also refused to give her any details of the CCJ that they say was assigned to their client in 2007. Probably 'coz they can't...

 

She is now thinking of writing to the court stating that these people are not complying with her request. No.... write to HL (copy to IJ). If they're chasing payment, then they should have something to back up that right. Also they should have a copy of the assignment that they say was legally assigned to them in 2007 but they will not let her have a copy of it or even give her a reason why they refused to do so.

 

You won't get a copy of any Deed of Assignment, as said.... because of data protection laws. A Deed of Assignment normally covers the bulk purchase of debts and would also include details of other purchases.

 

You could go round the houses for ages on this, but until you pin HL down with a rec. delivery letter asking them for details of the alleged CCJ, any legal right they may have to collect on it and, a statement of account that shows the alleged balance.... you'll get nowhere.

 

You could do this as a legal request; SAR, but I'd be inclined to save your £10 for now and see what they come up with first.

 

[the tinkerman]

Hi Priority One

 

Just a though seeing as it has been the subject of legal proceedings could he not send HL a request under CPR 31.14 to ask them First for a copy of a Notice of change of Solicitors, Secondly for a copy of the Original assignment and Third a copy of the Original CCJ as when I sent for a SAR all they sent me anyway was a copy of my paymens and didn’t even state the balance, from experience on SAR they only tend to send u what they want u to see.

But am I correct about the CPR request Priority One.

[Allwood]

I have advised my partner to take ur advice PriorityOne and she will be sending off a recorded letter tomorrow. The statement of accounts that was received from not sure who that was from as the letter heading says Credit Account Management and they made in reference in it to Phoenix Recoveries UK Ltd S.a.r.l (whatever that means) and then it goes on to say that I am entitled to a statement of accounts, which was was totally incorrect.

 

At the end of the address it made reference to INTRUM and gave them as the debt collection agency, so many involved in this it is very confusing.

 

The last letter sent to HL was recorded and the others got certificate of postings.

 

Would it be in order to send a copy of the letter that my partner will be sending HL to the court as well.

 

I will post a copy of the draft letter later for advices on it and if it is OK to send it off to HL and to get a positive response from them.

 

[PriorityOne]

Hi Priority One

 

Just a though seeing as it has been the subject of legal proceedings could he not send HL a request under CPR 31.14 to ask them First for a copy of a Notice of change of Solicitors, Secondly for a copy of the Original assignment and Third a copy of the Original CCJ as when I sent for a SAR all they sent me anyway was a copy of my paymens and didn’t even state the balance, from experience on SAR they only tend to send u what they want u to see.

But am I correct about the CPR request Priority One.

 

I wouldn't do that... no. Legal action has already taken place (allegedly as far as HL/IJ are concerned), so a CPR request will serve no purpose here A rec. delivery letter will do just fine and if they fail to send any info. through.... follow it up with a complaint. They will have to answer your complaint or risk the involvement of regulatory bodies, etc.

 

The way I see things, there's no risk here. A CCJ has already been taken out, so all they can do is threaten court to re-enforce that CCJ; providing they're legally entitled to collect in the first place.... which is all you're asking them to prove.

[PriorityOne]

I have advised my partner to take ur advice PriorityOne and she will be sending off a recorded letter tomorrow. The statement of accounts that was received from not sure who that was from as the letter heading says Credit Account Management and they made in reference in it to Phoenix Recoveries UK Ltd S.a.r.l (whatever that means) and then it goes on to say that I am entitled to a statement of accounts, which was was totally incorrect. If the Statement of Account was incorrect then.... then it will be incorrect now, for sure.

 

At the end of the address it made reference to INTRUM and gave them as the debt collection agency, so many involved in this it is very confusing. Yes, which is why the rec. delivery letter needs to go to HL/IJ now.

 

The last letter sent to HL was recorded and the others got certificate of postings. Rec. delivery is better than a Cert. of Postage when dealing with these people..... as you can also print off a sig. from the website, if necessary.

 

Would it be in order to send a copy of the letter that my partner will be sending HL to the court as well. No... HL/IJ need to prove they have the legal right.... so I'd let them do all the dirty work to prove themselves.

 

I will post a copy of the draft letter later for advices on it and if it is OK to send it off to HL and to get a positive response from them. Ok..

 

 

[Allwood]

Hi Priority One

 

Just a though seeing as it has been the subject of legal proceedings could he not send HL a request under CPR 31.14 to ask them First for a copy of a Notice of change of Solicitors, Secondly for a copy of the Original assignment and Third a copy of the Original CCJ as when I sent for a SAR all they sent me anyway was a copy of my paymens and didn’t even state the balance, from experience on SAR they only tend to send u what they want u to see.

But am I correct about the CPR request Priority One.

 

Hi tinkerman, as HL would not let us have a payment book payment for december was made to GPB payment book and as a result we got a letter from HL stating that no payment should be sent to them as they could not recover it. My partner has been trying to get a payment book from HL but they refuse to send one, they said that they do not supply payment books.

 

No payment was made in January or February. Should she pay them online like they have suggested or wait for a payment book as requested so many times.

[PriorityOne]

Hi tinkerman, as HL would not let us have a payment book payment for december was made to GPB payment book and as a result we got a letter from HL stating that no payment should be sent to them as they could not recover it. Suggesting it's been sold.... bet you don't get that payment back though! My partner has been trying to get a payment book from HL but they refuse to send one, they said that they do not supply payment books.

 

No payment was made in January or February. Should she pay them online like they have suggested or wait for a payment book as requested so many times.

 

Ask yourself first....

 

If I was to tell you to pay me because I had a CCJ on you, would you?

 

Or would you ask for proof?

[the tinkerman]

IMO

 

 

 

I Would carry on making payments on ur book to GPB and more Important get ur payments with them back up to date ASAP, and given the fact GPB have not told u to send ur payments elsewhere and the fact that u have been given anything Legally either by HL or the DCA to actually lay claim to this debt then I would tell them to shove it where the sun does not shine and until they do then u will carry on making ur payments to GPB until proven otherwise.

 

After all the worse that can happen is that GPB will have to forward ur payments onto HL (BIG DEAL) Make em work for a livin anyway and I would imagine they would send u a letter to that effect anyway.

 

 

But I am sure CPR 31.14 is the best way to go rather that a SAR and it won’t cost u anything, maybe someone with a bit more experience will just clarify that for u though.

Edited February 21, 2010 by the tinkerman
OOPS ?

[Allwood]

Many thanks PriorityOne for your kind advice...

I have put a letter togeher for these people... hope it get a response from them.

-----------------------------

Dear Sir/Madam

 

CCJ Payments and Statement of of an up to date accounts

 

You will be aware that I have written to many times in relation to the above mentioned and asked details of your authority to the collection payments from me.

 

I note from back of your letter dated [xxxxx} to the court but regrettably I have had no response from the court regarding your notification to collect payments from me. Therefore until I received notification from the court that you have the legal right to collect money in respect of the above mentioned CCJ together from you an accurate statement of payments made to date no payments will be made payable to your company.

Yours faithfully

Edited February 21, 2010 by Allwood

[PriorityOne]

Many thanks PriorityOne for your kind advice...

I have put a letter togeher for these people... hope it get a response from them.

-----------------------------

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Your Ref. xxxxx

 

CCJ Payments and Statement of Account

 

Despite writing to you on several occsaion regarding the above, I have still not received and written authority for you to collect payments on the CCJ you mention.

I note from the back of your letter dated [xxxxx} to the court (what do you note?), but this does no represent any legal authority on your behalf and neither does it address my concerns regarding a Statement of Account.

 

Notwithstanding the above, at no time have I received any notification from the court that payments should be made to your company either.

Therefore please take note that, until I received legal notification from yourselves and/or the court that you have any legal right to pursue payments in respect of the above mentioned CCJ together with an accurate statement of payments made to date, that no payments will be made payable to your company.

 

Yours faithfully

 

A few changes....