Urgently need to know the difference between a CPR18, CPR 31.14 and CPR31.16

[stone-broke]

I GIVE UP!!!!!!!

It was adjourned AGAIN! SOOOOOO frustrating!

I have to admit, I was a bit nervous this time (wasn't the two times before!)

Anyway...........guess you are all dying to know what happened?

The Witness Statement was 'ummed and 'arhhed about by the Claimants barrister. Reckons he only received it 45 mins before he turned up for the hearing. Said he read it in an internet cafe. Judge seemed a pretty much ok bloke and allowed the Claimant to go out of the Court to read for 15 mins. I had to go out too. DJ was rather stern with him and hinted the outcome might not be what the barrister expected (DJ had been reading my WS). He didn't refer to my newest WS but thought it was fair to allow it as the claimant was on their fifth WS and I only on my third. That was a relief as I had worked so hard on it. A bit of a moan and groan re the 29 paragraphs, but all relevant.When we came back in barrister was first off the mark, and Christ could he babble on. I couldn't kep up with him.....steam coming out of my pencil, darting from my second then third WS. He managed to cover just the points he wanted but mainly referref to the second WS and not my third. As my luck would have it, I didn't get a chance to say anything! BRANDON was mentioned.....and that was it, I had to spout out it was under appeal. Barrister pretended he wasn't aware of that!! Didn't fool me though. Of course he knew. So the judge asked me about the appeal....asking if it was an application for appeal or appeal. I told him I had been following the listings and said it was application for appeal, but now just appeal and that it was floating for 12/13th July. I mentioned Harrison being the more recent authority.........he wasn't interested. He said he would do the 'just' thing and we would have to wait on the outcome of Brandon. Oh and once we knew it either party could apply to have the case relisted! Then he decided I should do it! Barrister then brought up costs....what a little love he is..........mentioned that I was awarded the costs at the last hearing. Therefore the lovely judge ordered that I pay £300 plus VAT in 30 days for the barrister's fees!!!! I informed him I didn't have £300, so he said the best he could do was allow me to pay it in 56 days!!........fuming............still fuming now:-x There you go,that's lovely justice for ya!!

[panty54]

Sorry SB can understand your frustration having been in court myself last week. Seems more and more leniency being shown to the creditors. Well done so far, at least you put up a good case but I know how you feel - after this length of time you feel at though you do deserve some outcome. Keep us posted P

[The Mould]

I GIVE UP!!!!!!!

It was adjourned AGAIN! SOOOOOO frustrating!

I have to admit, I was a bit nervous this time (wasn't the two times before!)

Anyway...........guess you are all dying to know what happened?

The Witness Statement was 'ummed and 'arhhed about by the Claimants barrister. Reckons he only received it 45 mins before he turned up for the hearing. Said he read it in an internet cafe. Judge seemed a pretty much ok bloke and allowed the Claimant to go out of the Court to read for 15 mins. I had to go out too. DJ was rather stern with him and hinted the outcome might not be what the barrister expected (DJ had been reading my WS). He didn't refer to my newest WS but thought it was fair to allow it as the claimant was on their fifth WS and I only on my third. That was a relief as I had worked so hard on it. A bit of a moan and groan re the 29 paragraphs, but all relevant.When we came back in barrister was first off the mark, and Christ could he babble on. I couldn't kep up with him.....steam coming out of my pencil, darting from my second then third WS. He managed to cover just the points he wanted but mainly referref to the second WS and not my third. As my luck would have it, I didn't get a chance to say anything! BRANDON was mentioned.....and that was it, I had to spout out it was under appeal. Barrister pretended he wasn't aware of that!! Didn't fool me though. Of course he knew. So the judge asked me about the appeal....asking if it was an application for appeal or appeal. I told him I had been following the listings and said it was application for appeal, but now just appeal and that it was floating for 12/13th July. I mentioned Harrison being the more recent authority.........he wasn't interested. He said he would do the 'just' thing and we would have to wait on the outcome of Brandon. Oh and once we knew it either party could apply to have the case relisted! Then he decided I should do it! Barrister then brought up costs....what a little love he is..........mentioned that I was awarded the costs at the last hearing. Therefore the lovely judge ordered that I pay £300 plus VAT in 30 days for the barrister's fees!!!! I informed him I didn't have £300, so he said the best he could do was allow me to pay it in 56 days!!........fuming............still fuming now:-x There you go,that's lovely justice for ya!!

 

Good evening Mrs SB

 

BRANDON is irrelevant to these proceedings. Harrison is also irrelevant (but do not let that worry you). The Barrister would not want to refer to your amended WS for obvious reasons (clearly, from your above comments, the DJ realized that you did indeed have a defence that undermines the claim). I wonder why costs were not carried over until the claim was proved?

 

Kind regards

 

The Mould

[emandcole]

Onwards and upwards though eh? Odd to bang you with forthwith type costs when he's pulled it pending another 'related' case. Still, if Brandon is exposed for what it is all the better, if it's not then ignore it and run with your later argument. Costs aside a positive outcome so far.

[bazaar]

did they ever pay your costs previously?? Maybe apply for them, just to give them a good kick. maybe it will offset their costs, shame you didnt mention it

[stone-broke]

Just popping on to see the new posts.....took a few days away with anything to do with law!! Fuming still to be quite honest. I don't understand Court etiquette. The barrister seemed to get what he wanted to get across and I was jotting points down to come back to him on......but my time didn't seem to come!! Forgot to mention on my last post re court, the barrister and I had a chat after we got outside the court room. He said not to be surprised if shoos got in touch re a settlement. When we had come outside during our hearing time, the barrister made a call to shoos. He had tried to get me to go back into the court room, but I stayed around and tried to hear what he was saying. I knew he was discussing what had happened re the latest ws of mine, but didn't quite hear what he was saying in his whispering!

I have been thinking it might be best if I get my own barrister for the day. I think I have a very good case backed with evidence re the emails I found and the court have allowed the ws with attached emails to be used next time. My defence isn't just about the bad default notice, that is relatively a new issue. Keep in mind I have an embarrassed defence with 3 WS added to that. This guy said his charge for each hearing is £300 plus VAT, then I must be able to get one for similar sort of money. I honestly don't think a LiP has a good chance as he/she would if a barrister presented the case for them. Any one got any views on this? My family and a friend said they would help with the cost for one. Also can you just swop from representing yourself to getting representation if needed?

SB

[cymruambyth]

You can swap.

You could look up direct access barristers in your area and ask if they specialise in the CCA.

Alternatively ring local chambers, see if they do direct access and CCA. I did this before I went to court with Rob Way and sent WS etc. They came back with a price but said that as it was SC (and I wouldn't get my costs) plus all the preparation that I had done they thought that I could do it myself. I did and luckily the DJ knew the law.

However if I was going to my other local court I would do my best to find a direct access barrister!

[stone-broke]

You can swap.

You could look up direct access barristers in your area and ask if they specialise in the CCA.

Alternatively ring local chambers, see if they do direct access and CCA. I did this before I went to court with Rob Way and sent WS etc. They came back with a price but said that as it was SC (and I wouldn't get my costs) plus all the preparation that I had done they thought that I could do it myself. I did and luckily the DJ knew the law.

However if I was going to my other local court I would do my best to find a direct access barrister!

 

Thanks for that Cymruambyth.........I am going to look into it. There is no harm making enquiries. You say they came back with a price but said that it was SC????? What is SC??

SB:???:

[the_shadow]

SC = Small claims, where costs normally arent recoverable

 

S.

[cymruambyth]

Sorry SC = small claims court

 

 

" except for the court fees and fixed costs the other side cannot recover their legal costs (the maximum is about £300-£500). Similarly if you paid for representation and won you could not recover it either. Given the fairly small sum we are talking about therefore it may not be financially viable for you"

 

Hope this helps.

[The Mould]

Just popping on to see the new posts.....took a few days away with anything to do with law!! Fuming still to be quite honest. I don't understand Court etiquette. The barrister seemed to get what he wanted to get across and I was jotting points down to come back to him on......but my time didn't seem to come!! Forgot to mention on my last post re court, the barrister and I had a chat after we got outside the court room. He said not to be surprised if shoos got in touch re a settlement. When we had come outside during our hearing time, the barrister made a call to shoos. He had tried to get me to go back into the court room, but I stayed around and tried to hear what he was saying. I knew he was discussing what had happened re the latest ws of mine, but didn't quite hear what he was saying in his whispering!

I have been thinking it might be best if I get my own barrister for the day. I think I have a very good case backed with evidence re the emails I found and the court have allowed the ws with attached emails to be used next time. My defence isn't just about the bad default notice, that is relatively a new issue. Keep in mind I have an embarrassed defence with 3 WS added to that. This guy said his charge for each hearing is £300 plus VAT, then I must be able to get one for similar sort of money. I honestly don't think a LiP has a good chance as he/she would if a barrister presented the case for them. Any one got any views on this? My family and a friend said they would help with the cost for one. Also can you just swop from representing yourself to getting representation if needed?

SB

 

Good evening Mrs SB

 

If the claimant offers to discontinue, then you should accept on the condition that he do pay your costs in defending the claim. You are not liable for his costs since there was no case to answer.

 

Can you please remind me of how much is remaining on the account and what amount you are still paying each month towards the debt.

 

Don't worry about finding council to represent you, you simply do not need legal representation.

 

Straight forward case of variation in the contract as to your obligation to make the required monthly payments, you have not defaulted upon said obligation and so the claimant has no case against you.

 

Kind regards

 

The Mould

[stone-broke]

Hi Mr Mould,

 

I still haven't heard from the cobblers or the court re the order from the last hearing. I am lost as to what is owed on either accounts (loan/overdraft) but if you recall, they had chosen to use the CTC payments towards the OD, which means nothing off the loan.

 

I feel I do need to be represented and have located a barrister; although I have not contacted him yet. I have to wait for the Brandon case to be heard which is floating for the 12th/13th July. Then I have to call the court to have this case relisted. The judge said he would decide this case on the Brandon outcome. I have to pay the costs for one of the hearings which was an order at the last hearing, but have not had the court order through yet. This is to include VAT. I am unsure if Brandon has any chance of success with his appeal. Would appreciate anyone's views on this or any updates as to where he is at with it all!

 

The last hearing had me totally lost as I didn't get a chance to put my case across untill the DJ had already decided the way forward. I feel I would be better off with a barrister as I felt intimidated and out of my depth!

 

Regards,

 

SB.

[stone-broke]

Have been reading through my thread to refresh my memory as it has been a long time since my last post. Now that Mr B has won his appeal, my case can now proceed and an application to have my case relisted is to be made.

Mr B's appeal has gone in my favour, which means that the bad DN in my case should be looked at as BAD. I still have all sorts of questions floating around in my head as where that actually leaves me in this instance. So now the DJ will have to also accept that it is a 'bad DN' and act accordingly. The application of the OC to have the stay lifted and have a summary judgement brought against me should not be granted by the court. However, what happens next?

 

SB

[the_shadow]

Have been reading through my thread to refresh my memory as it has been a long time since my last post. Now that Mr B has won his appeal, my case can now proceed and an application to have my case relisted is to be made.

Mr B's appeal has gone in my favour, which means that the bad DN in my case should be looked at as BAD. I still have all sorts of questions floating around in my head as where that actually leaves me in this instance. So now the DJ will have to also accept that it is a 'bad DN' and act accordingly. The application of the OC to have the stay lifted and have a summary judgement brought against me should not be granted by the court. However, what happens next?

 

SB

 

If the stay is lifted but the summary judgement not granted then it goes to trial as normal I would imagine.

 

S.

[stone-broke]

In that case shadow, would it now be wise to write to the OC and accept their termination? Also the costs for this case to date.......would they now be liable for them and not me?

 

Thank you....SB

[the_shadow]

Sorry, my brain is befuddled... accept their termination? do you mean they have offered to discontinue.

 

I need to read back a few pages in that case.....

 

S.

[Guest]

don't recall the initials atm. but, accepting a 'termination' re the so called 'unlawful rescission' argument that has previously been expounded would not be a way forward. if they have terminated, then there is no need to 'accept' it.

[stone-broke]

Ah thank you Ford. They say they have terminated....documented on their WS's. As we are in the process of court action, then yes they must have terminated, or we wouldn't be at court! But I thought as I haven't officially accepted the termination in writing.....just assuming that that is the case, I thought it might be of benefit to accept in writing. However, after reading what you say above, guess that move would not be the right way forward after all!

 

Thank you

[Guest]

if they have terminated, then why the need to 'accept'? they have terminated!

agreements are usually ended once they demand the full amount outstanding, or say so, and by following the correct cca procedure. an agreement provides that the full amount is payable once it is ended. they go to court to try and enforce this by way of specific performance.

Edited October 29, 2011 by Ford
typo

[stone-broke]

.......and costs anyone? If summary judgement cannot be brought against me then they cannot claim the costs? Is that correct? SB

[the_shadow]

.......and costs anyone? If summary judgement cannot be brought against me then they cannot claim the costs? Is that correct? SB

 

If the judge denies their summary judgement application then yes there shouldnt be any costs.

 

S.

[stone-broke]

If the judge denies their summary judgement application then yes there shouldnt be any costs.

 

S.

 

Thank you Shadow! SB

[means2anend]

Whoa!!!

 

hold on a second...WHERE have I been.???

 

Mr Brandon has won appeal ???

 

where can I find case and what were the issues and how does this affect de-minimus which is what those DJ's was expounding..

 

...and does this mean that those who lost because of de-minimus should now appeal????????

 

rgds

m2ae

[means2anend]

Found it

 

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2011/1187.html&query=title+(+brandon+)+and+title+(+v+)+and+title+(+american+)+and+title+(+express+)&method=boolean

 

m2ae

[means2anend]

It would appear that the DE-MINIMUS rule has been BUSTED!!!

 

And also..

 

It appears that alternative pleadings of Default and Non-Default terminations are allowed provided it is done so early enough and NOT as late as it was in this case on APPEALS....

 

I have only skimmed read but if I am wrong I am sure that Iwill be humbly corrected!!!

 

nm2ae

Edited October 30, 2011 by means2anend