Parking ticket, Southwark Council, car taken by bailiff

[pamanar]

I would appreciate it if you could take a few moments to read my email thoroughly as I am about to throw quite a few details your way. My apolpgies for the length of this post but it's necessary I believe. My husband and I moved to East Dulwich back in May of 2009. The very weekend we moved into our flat, my father-in-law was issued 2 parking tickets and my husband was issued one himself.

 

We tried to pay the charge online a few days later but the website showed us that there was no penalty charge against our car registration number. After a number of unsuccessful attempts to pay the charge online, we phoned to enquire whether there was indeed a penalty charge. We were told that the online payment system was down and that we could either appeal the charge or pay the full extended amount right there on the phone. We decided to appeal and sent a print out of the website page showing that there was no record of a penalty charge against our, along with a letter to Southwark Parking Enforcement after which point we have not had any correspondence regarding this penalty charge.

 

This morning our car was not parked outside as it always is, it had gone missing. Naturally we reported this to the police who then told us that a bailiff had reported clamping and removing our car. We obtained the details from the police for the bailiff who then told us that this clamping and removal was indeed for that very ticket that we were issued back in May.

 

We have not once in all that time been notified of unpaid parking charges, penalty charges etc and when we told this to the bailiff he claimed that all notices were probably sent to our old address as that would have been the address on the original ticket. This is either a lie or utterly inexcusable incompetence on someone's part. We changed our address details immediately after moving and unless the DVLA do not bother updating systems when people inform them of address changes, their records would have shown that we had indeed moved. What is most infuriating however is that even though all the notices regarding the penalty were apparantly sent to our old address, somehow they knew exactly where to find our car to clamp and take away, directly outside our new flat's front door.

 

We are now being asked to pay £638 pounds to release the car, and we cannot not even know the location of the pound where it is being held until full payment has been made. We are also having to pay £20 plus VAT per day to hold the car. We would have settled the payment on Friday when this happened but 'unfortunately' the pound was conveniently closed when we tried to settle it at about 3:00pm. They do not open on Saturday or Sunday and we cannot go to anyone to pay and release our car, we must wait at home on Monday for someone from the Bailiff's to come and collect the money, after which point we can go and collect our car. This means my husband now also has to take a day off from work to wait around for someone to show up. This will mean 4 days holding charge adding about £100 to the final payment.

 

I cannot accept this sort of 'enforcement', the punishment grotesquely outweighs the crime, especially as we had tried to pay the charge and then appealled it so that we wouldn't be paying the double charge for paying late. If letters were sent to our old address even though we'd properly updated our address with the authorities, could you please point out to me where you see justice in the paragraphs above?

 

I cannot believe that is is actually a legal procedure, to force people to pay this kind of money and suffer emotional shock...for a parking ticket, that you tried to pay. Why not refuse Road Tax disc renewal for ourstanding parking tickets or penalty charges?

I believe this procedure of bailiffs coming to take your car for parking tickets should be illegal. What can I do to recover this money?

 

I want to take someone to court for this, I just don't know where to begin, or whether I can.

[kiptower]

cleaned up and typos sorted for you

I would appreciate it if you could take a few moments to read my email thoroughly as I am about to throw quite a few details your way. My apologies for the length of this post but it's necessary I believe. My husband and I moved to East Dulwich back in May of 2009. The very weekend we moved into our flat, my father-in-law was issued 2 parking tickets and my husband was issued one himself.

We tried to pay the charge online a few days later but the website showed us that there was no penalty charge against our car registration number. After a number of unsuccessful attempts to pay the charge online, we phoned to enquire whether there was indeed a penalty charge. We were told that the online payment system was down and that we could either appeal the charge or pay the full-extended amount right there on the phone. We decided to appeal and sent a print out of the website page showing that there was no record of a penalty charge against our, along with a letter to Southwark Parking Enforcement after which point we have not had any correspondence regarding this penalty charge.

This morning our car was not parked outside as it always is, it had gone missing. Naturally we reported this to the police who then told us that a bailiff had reported clamping and removing our car. We obtained the details from the police for the bailiff who then told us that this clamping and removal was indeed for that very ticket that we were issued back in May.

We have not once in all that time been notified of unpaid parking charges, penalty charges etc and when we told this to the bailiff he claimed that all notices were probably sent to our old address as that would have been the address on the original ticket. This is either a lie or utterly inexcusable incompetence on someone's part. We changed our address details immediately after moving and unless the DVLA do not bother updating systems when people inform them of address changes, their records would have shown that we had indeed moved. What is most infuriating however is that even though all the notices regarding the penalty were apparently sent to our old address, somehow they knew exactly where to find our car to clamp and take away, directly outside our new flat's front door.

We are now being asked to pay £638 pounds to release the car, and we cannot not even know the location of the pound where it is being held until full payment has been made. We are also having to pay £20 plus VAT per day to hold the car. We would have settled the payment on Friday when this happened but 'unfortunately' the pound was conveniently closed when we tried to settle it at about 3:00pm. They do not open on Saturday or Sunday and we cannot go to anyone to pay and release our car, we must wait at home on Monday for someone from the Bailiff's to come and collect the money, after which point we can go and collect our car. This means my husband now also has to take a day off from work to wait around for someone to show up. This will mean 4 days holding charge adding about £100 to the final payment.

I cannot accept this sort of 'enforcement', the punishment grotesquely outweighs the crime, especially as we had tried to pay the charge and then appealed it so that we wouldn't be paying the double charge for paying late. If letters were sent to our old address even though we'd properly updated our address with the authorities, could you please point out to me where you see justice in the paragraphs above?

I cannot believe that is actually a legal procedure, to force people to pay this kind of money and suffer emotional shock...for a parking ticket that you tried to pay. Why not refuse Road Tax disc renewal for outstanding parking tickets or penalty charges?

I believe this procedure of bailiffs coming to take your car for parking tickets should be illegal. What can I do to recover this money?

I want to take someone to court for this, I just don't know where to begin, or whether I can.

[seanamarts]

Have you complained to the council about this? If not get a letter of complaint off to them asap, head it Official Complaint, if you get no joy from them then get a complaint off to the local government ombudsman and they should intervene and get this investigated. Its pretty obvious that the council did not update their records as they should, a similar thing happened to me.

there will be others along to help you proceed with this. As for getting your car back, if you can afford to then pay and reclaim your money back.

[pamanar]

Thanks very much for the advice. I've just gone through all my records and here is how it went:

We had a Royal Mail redirection set up which was to expire on 11 June 2009 (we moved 6 May 2009). We had sent notification to the DVLA of our address change probably 3-4 days of moving and they sent us the revised registration document with a document date of 17 June. We had received a reminder notice from the Council about the ticket which was dated 11 June, 6 days before the date of the official DVLA doc date. It was at this point we tried to pay the charge again online, which showed no penalty charge and then we phoned them to find out what was going on and were informed that the website was down. We then sent the appeal stating that we were willing to pay the £60 but not £120 due to the fact that our previous attempts to pay the charge (unknowingly) never took place due to the website problems.

 

It was after this that we never heard anything back. It probably would have been smart on our part to follow up on this, but after some time had passed we'd just simply forgotten about it until the car went missing. Looking back though, had we received any more correspondence we would have paid what we owed.

 

My concern here is that the Council will just say that they were never made aware of the address change (not by us anyway). Are they required to keep their records up to date with the DVLA?

 

I am going to send an official complaint, hopefully I will get somewhere with this mess.

[Acropolis]

I would imagine that when they sent through the reminder the car was still showing at been at your old address, so this is where they sent everything through to.

 

Then you address changed. Any further documents they sent would probably have gone to that address which they already had on their records, rather than searching again.

 

When nothing was heard case passed to bailiffs, and they probably checked the vehicle reg and saw it was still in your name but at a different address and then took your car.

 

If that is the case, and the court order is at a different address can they still do this?

[seanamarts]

I would imagine that when they sent through the reminder the car was still showing at been at your old address, so this is where they sent everything through to.

 

Then you address changed. Any further documents they sent would probably have gone to that address which they already had on their records, rather than searching again.

 

When nothing was heard case passed to bailiffs, and they probably checked the vehicle reg and saw it was still in your name but at a different address and then took your car.

 

If that is the case, and the court order is at a different address can they still do this?

you would think that a bailiff would put 2 and 2 together and realised this and should have had the knowledge to place some sort of notice through the door BEFORE taking the car. But he could have been one of these bailiffs that cant add up.:grin:

[Jamberson]

This is a horrible experience for you, but the chain of events, believe it or not, appears to be by the book.

 

This is what the correct process should be:

 

1. When an unpaid PCN exists, the council request keeer details from DVLA as they were on the day the PCN was issued. (This is to prevent them pursuing the current keeper, who may not have been the keeper at the time - there's a logic to it.)

 

2. From then on, all official correspondence has to go to that address. It cannot be redirected - it has to be delivered to the address supplied by DVLA.

 

3. The Council's in the dark as to why the keeper has not replied to their correspondence. Their argument is that the vehicle owner has to make contact, and chase up the PCN until it has definitely been cancelled.

 

4. In the end, the case remians live and a warrant is issued for bailiffs to action - and charge their extortionate fees on top.

 

So what can you do? Sadly, not very much at this stage, as they have your car and you need it back. If you try and get it back by fighting the case first and getting a decision in your favour, it will take weeks or months and you'll be without the vehicle all the while. (Even then, it might not succeed.)

 

I think you're best paying them - disgusting though that is - and then fighting the case to get your money back. There's no fixed process so far as I know to remedy a situation like this, if it has been done as the regulations say it should (and it sounds like it has).

 

So you can pay, get the car back, then start kicking up a fuss. Local govt ombudsman, MP, local councillor, senior manager of parking at the Council, local press - anyone you can think of to take up your case and help get your money back.

 

Best of luck to you.

[seanamarts]

When did you tell the Council that you had changed address?

[ploddertom]

If you never received anything in the first place can you not file an Out of Time Declaration?

 

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/files/OOTApplicationPack.pdf

 

PT

[tomtubby]

I would appreciate it if you could take a few moments to read my email thoroughly as I am about to throw quite a few details your way. My apolpgies for the length of this post but it's necessary I believe. My husband and I moved to East Dulwich back in May of 2009. The very weekend we moved into our flat, my father-in-law was issued 2 parking tickets and my husband was issued one himself.

 

We tried to pay the charge online a few days later but the website showed us that there was no penalty charge against our car registration number. After a number of unsuccessful attempts to pay the charge online, we phoned to enquire whether there was indeed a penalty charge. We were told that the online payment system was down and that we could either appeal the charge or pay the full extended amount right there on the phone. We decided to appeal and sent a print out of the website page showing that there was no record of a penalty charge against our, along with a letter to Southwark Parking Enforcement after which point we have not had any correspondence regarding this penalty charge.

 

This morning our car was not parked outside as it always is, it had gone missing. Naturally we reported this to the police who then told us that a bailiff had reported clamping and removing our car. We obtained the details from the police for the bailiff who then told us that this clamping and removal was indeed for that very ticket that we were issued back in May.

 

We have not once in all that time been notified of unpaid parking charges, penalty charges etc and when we told this to the bailiff he claimed that all notices were probably sent to our old address as that would have been the address on the original ticket. This is either a lie or utterly inexcusable incompetence on someone's part. We changed our address details immediately after moving and unless the DVLA do not bother updating systems when people inform them of address changes, their records would have shown that we had indeed moved. What is most infuriating however is that even though all the notices regarding the penalty were apparantly sent to our old address, somehow they knew exactly where to find our car to clamp and take away, directly outside our new flat's front door.

 

We are now being asked to pay £638 pounds to release the car, and we cannot not even know the location of the pound where it is being held until full payment has been made. We are also having to pay £20 plus VAT per day to hold the car. We would have settled the payment on Friday when this happened but 'unfortunately' the pound was conveniently closed when we tried to settle it at about 3:00pm. They do not open on Saturday or Sunday and we cannot go to anyone to pay and release our car, we must wait at home on Monday for someone from the Bailiff's to come and collect the money, after which point we can go and collect our car. This means my husband now also has to take a day off from work to wait around for someone to show up. This will mean 4 days holding charge adding about £100 to the final payment.

 

I cannot accept this sort of 'enforcement', the punishment grotesquely outweighs the crime, especially as we had tried to pay the charge and then appealled it so that we wouldn't be paying the double charge for paying late. If letters were sent to our old address even though we'd properly updated our address with the authorities, could you please point out to me where you see justice in the paragraphs above?

 

I cannot believe that is is actually a legal procedure, to force people to pay this kind of money and suffer emotional shock...for a parking ticket, that you tried to pay. Why not refuse Road Tax disc renewal for ourstanding parking tickets or penalty charges?

I believe this procedure of bailiffs coming to take your car for parking tickets should be illegal. What can I do to recover this money?

 

I want to take someone to court for this, I just don't know where to begin, or whether I can.

 

PAMANAR

 

I am sorry to hear of this experience but sadly this is identical to the complaints that our office are receiving EVERY DAY and very shortly this needs to be made public.

 

There are so many people who are having their cars removed ....and sadly sold because local authorities continuing sending statutory notices to the address given by DVLA for the day that the PCN was incurred.

 

What you need to do is to immediately file an Out of Time Declaration/Witness Statement with the Traffic Enforcement Centre. This will FREEZE all enforcement and all fees for storage all stop. Approx 40,000 such applications were filed last year. If accepted, the PCN reverts back to the Notice to Owner stage and all bailiff fees ( if paid) can be claimed back.

 

Applications such as these can be made at any time either before or even a long time AFTER paying a bailiff !!

 

The application on average takes approx 6 weeks so we always advise ( where possible) to pay for your car to be released and then continue with the application.

 

There is no fee to pay for an Out of Time Witness Statement.

 

On the point that you have made as to how the bailiff knew where to find your car. This is SIMPLE. When the bailiff is sent the Warrant of Execution by Southwark, they "data cleanse" the warrant. This means that they check the address against electoral roll and other address checkers to obtain a NEW ADDRESS.

 

Is the bailiff company called JBW Enforcement?

[seanamarts]

I just dont understand why the councils dont do a 'data cleanse' before handing this over to the bailiffs, it would save so much time, hassle and inconvenience, not to mention money that they keep saying they dont have.

[tomtubby]

I just dont understand why the councils dont do a 'data cleanse' before handing this over to the bailiffs, it would save so much time, hassle and inconvenience, not to mention money that they keep saying they dont have.

 

What should happen is that BEFORE they request the authorisation of a Warrant of Execution, they should BY LAW do a further DVLA search. In particular, because in the normal course of events, from the issue of a PCN through to warrant stage is approx 7 months. If the vehicle owner had appealed the ticket, the time frame is normally 10-12 months and many people move home in that time.

 

However, this will never happen BECAUSE the vast majority of bailiff companies not only print the Notice to Owner, Charge Certificate and Order for Recovery but they also print the Warrant of Execution.

 

Sorry...I should also mention that some of the large bailiff companies also receive the appeal forms......

 

As you can see, the council therefore do very little. Most of them do not even employ the parking attendant.

 

Everything has been allowed to evolve unchecked and there is FAR TOO MUCH that is being allowed to be done by "back office providers"

[pamanar]

PAMANAR

 

I am sorry to hear of this experience but sadly this is identical to the complaints that our office are receiving EVERY DAY and very shortly this needs to be made public.

 

There are so many people who are having their cars removed ....and sadly sold because local authorities continuing sending statutory notices to the address given by DVLA for the day that the PCN was incurred.

 

What you need to do is to immediately file an Out of Time Declaration/Witness Statement with the Traffic Enforcement Centre. This will FREEZE all enforcement and all fees for storage all stop. Approx 40,000 such applications were filed last year. If accepted, the PCN reverts back to the Notice to Owner stage and all bailiff fees ( if paid) can be claimed back.

 

Applications such as these can be made at any time either before or even a long time AFTER paying a bailiff !!

 

The application on average takes approx 6 weeks so we always advise ( where possible) to pay for your car to be released and then continue with the application.

 

There is no fee to pay for an Out of Time Witness Statement.

 

On the point that you have made as to how the bailiff knew where to find your car. This is SIMPLE. When the bailiff is sent the Warrant of Execution by Southwark, they "data cleanse" the warrant. This means that they check the address against electoral roll and other address checkers to obtain a NEW ADDRESS.

 

Is the bailiff company called JBW Enforcement?

 

Wait a minute...are you saying that the bailiffs after doing a 'data cleanse' have your correct address and then choose to send all warning letters to your old address purposefully?

 

The company was not JB it was Davies Enforcements. I am in disbelief about this and I agree that councils should have to do a data cleanse themselves before issuing warrants to clamp and seize vehicles. I've already written to my MP, I am not letting this go.

[tomtubby]

Wait a minute...are you saying that the bailiffs after doing a 'data cleanse' have your correct address and then choose to send all warning letters to your old address purposefully?

 

The company was not JB it was Davies Enforcements. I am in disbelief about this and I agree that councils should have to do a data cleanse themselves before issuing warrants to clamp and seize vehicles. I've already written to my MP, I am not letting this go.

 

Who is your MP?

[pamanar]

Tessa Jowell, do you know if she/her office would would be any use in fighitng this sort of thing?

[Jamberson]

Wait a minute...are you saying that the bailiffs after doing a 'data cleanse' have your correct address and then choose to send all warning letters to your old address purposefully?

 

What probably happens is that they send correspondence to the address on the warrant. Then they go visit an find you're not there. Then they look through whatever records they can to see if they can locate you somewhere else.

 

At that stage, they come over to the new address they've found - you would think they would contact you, but if they choose to just whip the car instead, they probably aren't breaking the 'rules' - which is the thrust of the problem.

 

By the way - if you pay the bailiff the full amount, then that includes payment for the PCN. I was not aware that you could file an out of time stat dec/witness statement on a paid PCN. Can anyone confirm?

[pamanar]

By the way, I need to mention that this is actually the SECOND time in 2 years this has happened to us, almost identical situations...moved house and then car was clamped (that time we managed to catch the bailiff in front of our house before he'd taken the car away and paid him) That time it was JBW Enforecement.

 

That time we sent an Out of Time Declaration and recovered only a portion of our money. The fact that this exact thing has happened again it was bothers me. There is definitely something very wrong with the system when the 2 times you've been issued a PCN, both end up in the hands of a bailiff before you've had a chance to even blink.

[tomtubby]

Tessa Jowell, do you know if she/her office would would be any use in fighitng this sort of thing?

 

I am SURE that she will deal with this...she has had only similar cases !!

[tomtubby]

Tessa Jowell, do you know if she/her office would would be any use in fighitng this sort of thing?

 

In your letter to Tessa Jowell, you may wish to remind her of the speech in the House of Commons ( link below) by the Labour MP for Great Grimsby; Mr Austin Mitchell. This is almost identical to your current complaint.

 

MANY MP's know of this speech which is commonly referred to as the "Witching Hour" speech as it started at 1.30am on 27th March 2007.

 

PS; Sadly, Austin Mitchell's wife; Linda Mc Dougall has undergone surgery for breast cancer in the past few weeks. I am sure that we all wish her a speedy and hopefully sucessful recovery.

 

Road Traffic Debts: 27 Mar 2007: House of Commons debates (TheyWorkForYou.com)

.

[seanamarts]

I was on the understanding that if the address was different from the address on the warrant are not the bailiffs meant to inform the creditor in this case the council before any further action is taken, I will try and find out where I read this from and post it up

[pamanar]

I'm pretty sure I've read that somewhere as well. The way I see it, if they had our new address then they are supposed to announce that they are there to take your stuff by knocking on your door or putting a notice/letter through your letter box, present their certificate to show they are a certified bailiff if asked to, accept payment if it is offered and release the vehilce, or take it if no payment to settle is offered. If they deliberately dropped a notice at the old address on the day of the towing, in full knowledge of the fact that the car is no longer registered there it is obvious there was no intention of allowing us to pay up.

 

I have since contacted our old neighbour (we lived on different floors of a house) who told us that a notice was dropped through the letter box the morning that they took our car. I leave for work at about 8:00am everyday and our car had been removed by that time already. They knew that was not where we lived and proceded to send notification to one address and take a car from another.

 

Somebody please tell me if this is infact legal. It doesn't sound right to me. They KNEW we had a new address.

[seanamarts]

I'm pretty sure I've read that somewhere as well. The way I see it, if they had our new address then they are supposed to announce that they are there to take your stuff by knocking on your door or putting a notice/letter through your letter box, present their certificate to show they are a certified bailiff if asked to, accept payment if it is offered and release the vehilce, or take it if no payment to settle is offered. If they deliberately dropped a notice at the old address on the day of the towing, in full knowledge of the fact that the car is no longer registered there it is obvious there was no intention of allowing us to pay up.

 

I have since contacted our old neighbour (we lived on different floors of a house) who told us that a notice was dropped through the letter box the morning that they took our car. I leave for work at about 8:00am everyday and our car had been removed by that time already. They knew that was not where we lived and proceded to send notification to one address and take a car from another.

 

Somebody please tell me if this is infact legal. It doesn't sound right to me. They KNEW we had a new address.

Information and confidentiality

 

 

• All notices, correspondence and documentation issued by the agent/agency must be clear and unambiguous and to the satisfaction of the creditor.
  
• On returning any un-executed warrants, the enforcement agent should report the outcome to the creditor and provide further appropriate information, where this is requested and paid for by the creditor.
  
• All information obtained during the administration and enforcement of warrants must be treated as confidential.
  
• Copies of the National Standards for Enforcement Agents must be freely available from the offices of enforcement agencies, or agents on request and wherever possible from creditors.
  
• Enforcement agents should provide clear and prompt information to debtors and where appropriate, creditors.
  
• Enforcement agents should, so far as it is practical, avoid disclosing the purpose of their visit to anyone other than the debtor. Where the debtor is not seen, the relevant documents must be left at the address in a sealed envelope addressed to the debtor.
  
• Enforcement agents will on each and every occasion when a visit is made to a debtor's property which incurs a fee for the debtor, leave a notice detailing the fees charged to date, including the one for that visit, and the fees which will be incurred if further action becomes necessary. If a written request is made an itemised account of fees will be provided.
  
• Enforcement agents will clearly explain and give in writing, the consequences of the seizure of a debtor's goods and ensure that debtors are aware of the additional charges that will be incurred.
  

Taken from;

National Standards for Enforcement Agents

 

Still looking for the other info

[tomtubby]

In your letter to Tessa Jowell, you may wish to remind her of the speech in the House of Commons ( link below) by the Labour MP for Great Grimsby; Mr Austin Mitchell. This is almost identical to your current complaint.

 

MANY MP's know of this speech which is commonly referred to as the "Witching Hour" speech as it started at 1.30am on 27th March 2007.

 

PS; Sadly, Austin Mitchell's wife; Linda Mc Dougall has undergone surgery for breast cancer in the past few weeks. I am sure that we all wish her a speedy and hopefully sucessful recovery.

 

Road Traffic Debts: 27 Mar 2007: House of Commons debates (TheyWorkForYou.com)

.

 

 

The above link is excellent and clearly this type of underhand method of enforcing an unpaid PCN has not changed one bit since 2007 !!

[seanamarts]

I know where I read this but not sure if it covers every area or council. ask you council to provide you with their bailiffs codes of practice or conduct, it should be there im sure .

[pamanar]

This is interesting, I've jsut had a look at the full document and from my layman's point of view the bailiffs haven't done a lot of the things on the list...including this particular point:

 

"Enforcement agents should take all reasonable steps to satisfy themselves that the value of the goods impounded in satisfaction of the judgement is proportional to the value of the debt and charges owed."

 

How does a £638 equal, even if approximately, the value of a car currently valued at £5800? Even at auction you'd get more than £638 for it.

 

Very wrong.