RBS - lack of a copy of original CCA

[2001captain]

I have written my first letter to RBS requesting a copy of my CCA with reqd fee. Since then i have had a number of replies. The first being 10th Dec saying they can't find my original CCA. The second on the 11th Dec sending me a default notice. The third a letter saying they do not have my original CCA, and returning my £1-00 fee and saying they cannot comply with my request, but i am still obliged to pay and the agreement remains valid. I have uploaded all the correspondence in pdf format for comment. i look forward to receiving advice as to my next step as to what i should do.

RBS loss of CCA.pdf

RBS 1st letter.pdf

RBS 2nd letter.pdf

RBS CCA 1.pdf

RBS CCA 2.pdf

[yubnub]

I have written my first letter to RBS requesting a copy of my CCA with reqd fee. Since then i have had a number of replies. The first being 10th Dec saying they can't find my original CCA. The second on the 11th Dec sending me a default notice. The third a letter saying they do not have my original CCA, and returning my £1-00 fee and saying they cannot comply with my request, but i am still obliged to pay and the agreement remains valid. I have uploaded all the correspondence in pdf format for comment. i look forward to receiving advice as to my next step as to what i should do.

 

Whats the background to your cca request?

 

Is the account still with RBS or has it been sold on?

 

Bottom line is without any CCA there is no agreement to enforce, or take you to court over.

 

I suppose it depends what you want to acheive long term as to what you do next.

Edited December 17, 2009 by yubnub

[citizenB]

Hi, Well now.. This is the latest from RBS. They say they have "misfiled" an agreement, rather than lost, or destroyed.

 

They are correct in that without the signed agreement, they can write to you, phone you, pass the account over to a collection agency to do the same. But, they would be unable to make a claim through the court.

 

You have not been issued with a Default Notice, although that might well be in the pipeline. What you have there is a letter advising about default sums ie charges. A new requirement that came in with amendments around 2008.

 

If/When you do receive a Default notice then let us know. Do keep all envelopes from any correspondence you receive. Especially from a DN.

[diddydicky]

i would write and point out that unless and until they provide proof of a properly executed and legally enforceable agreement you have NO obligation to them whatsoever

 

furthermore you believe that they cannot provide it not because it is "mis filed" but because it does not exist.

 

I would therefore ask them to provide you with a true copy of your written consent to them to hold and pass on data about you to third parties and remind them they would be ill advised to "publish" defamatory information about you, including passing adverse information about you to third parties, and that the only defence to defamation or slander is the truth, and that without a properly executed credit agreement they have no such proof and that any adverse information given to third parties which my damage your credit reputation may be the subject of legal proceedings

[2001captain]

so you are suggesting sending a SAR then to see what other info they may have

[2001captain]

yes the account is still with RBS. I am not aware of any transfer. should i send a SAR to find out what other info if any they have

[diddydicky]

personally i prefer to save SAR requests until the account is DN and TN'd

[2001captain]

Whats the background to your cca request?

 

Is the account still with RBS or has it been sold on?

 

Bottom line is without any CCA there is no agreement to enforce, or take you to court over.

 

I suppose it depends what you want to acheive long term as to what you do next.

thanks Yubnub like many other people on this website i am trying to see if RBS are able to enforce the debt. I like many others have lost my job and times are hard so i am following any route available to me to ease any demands on my limited finances

[2001captain]

i would write and point out that unless and until they provide proof of a properly executed and legally enforceable agreement you have NO obligation to them whatsoever

 

furthermore you believe that they cannot provide it not because it is "mis filed" but because it does not exist.

 

I would therefore ask them to provide you with a true copy of your written consent to them to hold and pass on data about you to third parties and remind them they would be ill advised to "publish" defamatory information about you, including passing adverse information about you to third parties, and that the only defence to defamation or slander is the truth, and that without a properly executed credit agreement they have no such proof and that any adverse information given to third parties which my damage your credit reputation may be the subject of legal proceedings

thanks have you a letter template i could use for this purpose?

[vint1954]

Captain, as per PM:

 

I have added DD's points at the end.

 

xxxxxx 2009.

 

Dear xxxxxxxxx,

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

Re account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

I write regarding recent communication regarding the above account. I acknowledge no debt to your organisation.

 

Further to my request under the above act, your attention is drawn to the fact that this account remains subject to a lawful serious dispute. On xxxxxxxx, by recorded delivery, I requested that you supply me a copy of the executed credit agreement covering this account pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 78, a copy of this request is enclosed. To date you have failed to comply with my request, advising that you no longer have the agreement. It is my belief that there may be issues with the way in which the account was executed and subsequently operated. Without production of the said agreement I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable for any alleged debt to you, nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’ as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Not supplying a valid Credit Agreement is a perfectly lawful reason for dispute.

 

If you are unable to supply a true copy of the credit agreement, in relation to the above account, the OFT’s advice is that you must inform me that the account is unenforceable, which I take your comments in your letter dated 10th December 2009, to confirm.

 

While this account remains in serious dispute, the relevant main points of the Law and OFT regulations while the account is in this state and xxxxxx remain in default are:

 

• You may not ask for payment against this account.
  
• I am not obliged to offer any payment against this account.
  
• You cannot register any data with a third party.
  
• You cannot take any enforcement action, including registering Defaults.
  
• You cannot pass the account on to a third party for collection.
  
• You cannot sell the account.
  

Further, s.127(3) CCA 1974 makes the account unenforceable if it is not in the proper form and content or improperly executed or no agreement is in existence.

 

In Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd (2007) it was stated “In my judgment the objective of Schedule 6 is to ensure that, as an inflexible condition of enforceability, certain basic minimum terms are included which the parties … and/or the court can identify within the four corners of the agreement. Those minimum provisions combined with the requirement under s.61 that all the terms should be in a single document, and backed up by the provisions of section 127(3), ensure that these core terms are expressly set out in the agreement itself: they cannot be orally agreed; they cannot be found in another document; they cannot be implied; and above all they cannot be in the slightest mis-stated. As a matter of policy, the lender is denied any room for manoeuvre in respect of them. On the other hand, they are basic provisions, and the only question for the court is whether they are, on a true construction, included in the agreement”.

 

 

As you have confirmed that you no longer hold a signed agreement for the above account, I consider that the above matter is closed and that you will no longer pursue the alleged debt. I would suggest that the best course of action would be to immediately set the balance of the above account number to zero.

 

Additionally, can you please provide me with a copy of any signed authority, that gives you permission to share my data with third parties. This authority, as you will be aware, is a requirement of the Data Protection Act.

 

I would also add, that you would be ill advised to "publish" defamatory information about myself, including passing adverse information about me to third parties. Without a properly executed credit agreement you have no proof that any adverse information given to third parties is in fact truthful. This may lead to the damaging of my credit reputation, which may then be the subject of legal proceedings.

 

I look forward to your response.

Edited December 19, 2009 by vint1954

[angry cat]

RBS have sent hundreds of the:

agreement has been misfiled letters!!!

[2001captain]

Captain, as per PM:

 

I have added DD's points at the end.

 

xxxxxx 2009.

 

Dear xxxxxxxxx,

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

Re account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

I write regarding recent communication regarding the above account. I acknowledge no dept to your organisation.

 

Further to my request under the above act, your attention is drawn to the fact that this account remains subject to a lawful serious dispute. On xxxxxxxx, by recorded delivery, I requested that you supply me a copy of the executed credit agreement covering this account pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 78, a copy of this request is enclosed. To date you have failed to comply with my request, advising that you no longer have the agreement. It is my belief that there may be issues with the way in which the account was executed and subsequently operated. Without production of the said agreement I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable for any alleged debt to you, nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’ as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Not supplying a valid Credit Agreement is a perfectly lawful reason for dispute.

 

If you are unable to supply a true copy of the credit agreement, in relation to the above account, the OFT’s advice is that you must inform me that the account is unenforceable, which I take your comments in your letter dated 10th December 2009, to confirm.

 

While this account remains in serious dispute, the relevant main points of the Law and OFT regulations while the account is in this state and xxxxxx remain in default are:

 

• You may not ask for payment against this account.
  
• I am not obliged to offer any payment against this account.
  
• You cannot register any data with a third party.
  
• You cannot take any enforcement action, including registering Defaults.
  
• You cannot pass the account on to a third party for collection.
  
• You cannot sell the account.
  

Further, s.127(3) CCA 1974 makes the account unenforceable if it is not in the proper form and content or improperly executed or no agreement is in existence.

 

In Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd (2007) it was stated “In my judgment the objective of Schedule 6 is to ensure that, as an inflexible condition of enforceability, certain basic minimum terms are included which the parties … and/or the court can identify within the four corners of the agreement. Those minimum provisions combined with the requirement under s.61 that all the terms should be in a single document, and backed up by the provisions of section 127(3), ensure that these core terms are expressly set out in the agreement itself: they cannot be orally agreed; they cannot be found in another document; they cannot be implied; and above all they cannot be in the slightest mis-stated. As a matter of policy, the lender is denied any room for manoeuvre in respect of them. On the other hand, they are basic provisions, and the only question for the court is whether they are, on a true construction, included in the agreement”.

 

 

As you have confirmed that you no longer hold a signed agreement for the above account, I consider that the above matter is closed and that you will no longer pursue the alleged debt. I would suggest that the best course of action would be to immediately set the balance of the above account number to zero.

 

Additionally, can you please provide me with a copy of any signed authority, that gives you permission to share my data with third parties. This authority, as you will be aware, is a requirement of the Data Protection Act.

 

I would also add, that you would be ill advised to "publish" defamatory information about myself, including passing adverse information about me to third parties. Without a properly executed credit agreement you have no proof that any adverse information given to third parties is in fact truthful. This may lead to the damaging of my credit reputation, which may then be the subject of legal proceedings.

 

I look forward to your response.

Vint

Many thanks for this the letter will be in the post Saturday. I will keep you and everybody else informed via this thread

[diddydicky]

cheers vint

[ScarletPimpernel]

I acknowledge no debt to your organisation.

 

Achtung! Spelling...

[diddydicky]

three,,, Achtung! Grammar!

[2001captain]

three,,, Achtung! Grammar!

cheers DD well spotted

[spartathisis]

My det (!) with RBS has been farmed out to Wescot, been through internal DCA n Greens sols both sent back to RBS.

 

I got a very RED letter today from Wescot, telling me to pay up or else the bailiffs will be sent in? Oh dear.

[angry cat]

Mr. Handyside QC, (McGuffick v RBS) mentioned mislaid agreements in his pleadings.

 

One can only draw their own conclusions...

[diddydicky]

My det (!) with RBS has been farmed out to Wescot, been through internal DCA n Greens sols both sent back to RBS.

 

I got a very RED letter today from Wescot, telling me to pay up or else the bailiffs will be sent in? Oh dear.

 

i shall explain " diddys law" for you:-

 

"The amount of bull**** contained in a demand is inversly proportional to the degree of redness in the text and the size of the font used"

[angry cat]

Irresponsible lending...disgraceful negligence by this group of companies;

they should own up and hang their heads, in shame!

[vint1954]

cheers vint

I think we need to keep trying new tacks and upping the game.

[vint1954]

Achtung! Spelling...

ooops! You can't have good looks and spillllong.

 

I have changed my template.

[vint1954]

three,,, Achtung! Grammar!

????

 

My take is that if you make a mistake, then cover up all evidence that you ever made it.

[vint1954]

Irresponsible lending...disgraceful negligence by this group of companies;

they should own up and hang their heads, in shame!

They never will.

 

The whole industry is a sham. The ignore the law, Treat our legal system as a playground, and flout the will of Parliament. And where are the people that are suposed to regulate and protect folk from this behaviour? Probably in Copenhagen working out measures to hit your pocket further and make you turn your heating down and freeze.

[2001captain]

well its started just had my 2nd threatning call from RBS saying i have no rights in law they are the ones who know the law and they are going to default me on my credit report and it will stay there for 6 years. next they will be sending in debt collectors. any thoughts or comments?