Welcome are now officially dead and buried

[postggj]

[postggj]

Steven is in Romania on a work assignment.

Pt is taking some well deserved time away-although he is keeping tabs with developments.

 

 

I TAKE IT YOU HAVE PASSED ON THE NEWS

 

GIVE THEM MY BEST

[MARTIN3030]

I would imagine that both know by now and will post here in due course.

I will pass on your regards.

[mark1arby]

Edit at 49 was in consideration to the bypass of CAG swear filter.

Post 50 was quote of 49 so had to be done as well.

Rules are rules-I didnt make them !

 

Received and Understood Skipper. This Cagbot takes it`s time catching up some times though.

 

Cheers, MARK

[MARTIN3030]

Yes sometimes it can be slow,but its been working overtime lately with DCA and Bailiff trolls.....they seem to increase their presence at this time of year.

[mark1arby]

Fair One. Merry Christmas.:o

[Sol]

Cattles deals another blow to investors - Yorkshire Post

 

Ah bless !!!!!!

 

It's good to see MY saying that she doesn't see WFS becoming profitable again . I suppose the point is was it ever profitable? They say they know it went back as far as 2002 and likely even earlier. What a mickey mouse company!

[minmac]

OMG I dont believe it. I nearly.... just nearly gave up hope. I had an unannounced visit yesterday.. this is what happened...

 

Knock Knock

 

ME hello

 

MAN hi is minmac in please

 

ME sorry shes not in. Who are you?

 

MAN Iam from welcome finance, can I have her mobile number and landline as the ones we have seem to be no longer in service

 

ME no

 

MAN erm..... can you ask her to ring us

 

ME ok bye *closed the door*

 

Then today I get a letter saying a charge of 25 for the visit is being put on my account

 

Are they allowed to make this charge when they turned up unannounced and didnt talk to "me" as I "wasnt in"?

 

Not that it makes much of a difference I suppose, I aint paid in 5 months and dont intend to start

[MARTIN3030]

Well of course they can ask for it,but I certainly wouldnt pay it.

Dont suppose he left you a Christmas card then ?

[beyondhope]

I have one of those wonderful doorstep call charges on mine after them hand delivering DD forms never asked them to they took it upon themselves to do it so I wont be paying it.

[Dibbothe3rd]

lol just send em an invoice for 4 visits of your own to their office at £30 a pop, but oh wait a sec, they were closed!!!! never minds eh.

 

even better, send it to them in an xmas card heh heh

[MICHFERGIE]

Best news I have heard Happy Christmas Welcome

:lol::lol:

[mark1arby]

OMG I dont believe it. I nearly.... just nearly gave up hope. I had an unannounced visit yesterday.. this is what happened...

 

Knock Knock

 

ME hello

 

MAN hi is minmac in please

 

ME sorry shes not in. Who are you?

 

MAN Iam from welcome finance, can I have her mobile number and landline as the ones we have seem to be no longer in service

 

ME no

 

MAN erm..... can you ask her to ring us

 

ME ok bye *closed the door*

 

Then today I get a letter saying a charge of 25 for the visit is being put on my account

 

Are they allowed to make this charge when they turned up unannounced and didnt talk to "me" as I "wasnt in"?

 

Not that it makes much of a difference I suppose, I aint paid in 5 months and dont intend to start

 

Should have invited them in to wait until minmac came back. lol:lol:

[Housemonkey]

If Welcome are counting down the days to their demise then who the hell are Professional Financial Services? This company has just added a default on my credit file!

I googled them, called them and they answered as Welcome!! WTF!

[Housemonkey]

Sorry, I was meant to say Progressive Financial Services not professional Financial Services. I think that's what you call a Freudian slip!!!

[T2upNorth]

Interesting...... I've had a PPI claim against Welcome - passed to FOS in August 2008. Just today had a call from FOS going over the details to get the ball rolling.... hmmmm

[Dibbothe3rd]

ASA - ASA Non-broadcast Adjudication: Progressive Financial Services Ltd

 

http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/34f4939633687eb6fc8f213d4952ee79/compdetails

 

some info on PFS

[beyondhope]

isnt that funny that progressive have the same notts address as our friends @@

[Housemonkey]

Companies house state they're a non-trading company formally known as Welcome Finance.

[postggj]

the regular caggers will notE last year a lot of welcome finance accounts on the credit files were being changed to progressive financial services.

 

this was welcome trying to ring fence its assetts.

it was just after they lost the banking licence application.

they knew then they were finished.

 

cag busted that and i posted it on the cattles share forum

 

a month later all the accounts were back under welcome, not progressive

 

you have to be quicker than that welcome

 

it was creative accounting again, trying to make progressive accounts look good to the share holders

 

THEY WERE WELL AND TRULY BUSTED BY CAG

[Fester Tester]

Welcome knew a LOT earlier than that there was dodgy dealing going on.

 

MY in the Yorkshire Post article admitted they were holding onto documentation for self prervation. Way back in 2002!!!

[pwg6565]

EGM of Cattles plc

Held at Congress House in London on 16th December 2009 at 12.00 noon when it was snowing outside.

 

M Young Chairman (MY)

D haxby

J Drummond Smith

R East

A McWalter

F Dee

 

A few shareholders (SH)

People from Freshfields

 

NOTE: this is a transcription of my notes. I have tried to be as accurate as possible but do not guarantee accuracy. Where text is bold and underlined I believe that my note is correct. I have not transcribed what I said as I cannot write and talk holding a microphone at the same time

If I have mistakenly missed anything or misattributed anything I humbly apologise and will correct my transcription accordingly if the error of my ways is pointed out.

My typing is pathetic so I also apologise for that.

 

 

 

OPENING STATEMENT OF MY

Unusual meeting because no resolutions or specific agenda.

 

Following severe loss of capital to comply with legal obligations whether and what steps to be taken

Hear direct from board or be told steps being taken to address matters.

Also bring SH up to date on matters since AGM and EGM.

Primary focus necessarily been on maintaining support of creditors to stabilise financial position

15.07 all banks extended deadline on finance due 14.07 to 31.12

To accommodate restructuring

Action taken with creditors, bondholders, noteholders and banks to accept standstill and move onto next stage –restructuring going forward.

That was position at AGM.

Standstill negotiaitions protracted and complex.

25.11 agreed standstill (SEA)

Still subject to approval of bondholders- tomorrow.

Signing SEA important as it allows to carry on restructuring process.

Group still has severe financial problems.

25.11. financial update sets out challenge.

555m loss 08

347m loss 1st 9 months of 09.

Balance sheet reflects serious impact.

Shareholders funds -£197m at 31.12.08.

Numbers appear in statement 25.11.

In circumstances group continue only with support of financial creditors.

Figures are not audited and are subject to material change- they are current best estimate.

?why are the figures continuing to deteriorate?

Existing loan book continues to be further impaired.

Bearing significant restructuring costs

New lending only a tiny fraction

Stopped selling PPI in 09.

Cost base reduced in 09

But high in relation to activity.

Need to retain (…) to collect outstanding loans.

Reduced costs in business

Disposed of peripheral assets (CIF)

Action our RESTRUCTURING OBJECTIVE

Debt collection and costs in business reducing

In 9 months WCF collected £570m

At 30.09 CTT owed £2.7b net of cash balances =£2.3b

Written down value of loans due only £1.9b.

Liabilities outweigh assets.

Earlier this morning issued a statement to stock exchange

“ she then read RNS- (I didn t bother to try and transcribe it fully)

Board of directors continue to look at all practical options

Directors duties primarily to creditors

Will keep shareholders informed ( my laughter omitted)

Frequently asked questions –when will shares be traded again-been suspended 8 months?

No option but to suspend when clear not going to do financial report in time. At time of suspension reduced value to nominal level. Likely to remain suspended till restructuring agreement in place, Shares may not be relisted.

? the litigation between CTT and WCF?

About precedence of banks claims. High Court ruled largely in favour of banks. Bondholders rep lodged notice of appeal. This has no material impact on wider financial issues.

09.12 announced auditors (PWC) resigned and Grant Thornton appointed.

PWC statutory statement circulated.

Usual to cover this before shareholders at AGM. Will help now to go forward to finalising 08 figures.

Continued discussions about restructuring with key financial creditors and likely to be some time till there is anything to report.

 

Negotiations likely to be protracted

Board aware of serious disappointment to shareholders

Many have long association with co

After substantial losses of Wellcome not possible to continue lending in Wellcome Brand

In discussions with advisors and creditors considered all options and had to make decision

Has to satisfy obligation to creditors

QUESTIONS FROM THE FLOOR

Joe Visiteel ( A gentleman from Malta)

Wrote pre RI to ask about question on meet of 09.05-on impact of sub prime- no of questions outstanding

Has Cattles given shareholders misleading information?

You have had mega internal fraud

Captain not had …..eye

Pay big boys and small fish get nothing

Directors since resigned

Got a letter to home from WCF-someone trying to raise a loan in my name

 

Response (if any) not noted

 

Peter Gent

Formal position of meeting

Given information of utmost gravity

Read out important announcement

Nobody who has travelled knew anything about it

How can we consider it in timeframe

Supposed to consider what to do about company

Nothing to be done

I have lost £60,000 of hard earned earnings

This is extremely serious

Board does not see the seriousness

Been in office for 3+years whilst catastrophe unfolding

Fundamentally shareholders have been kept in complete ignorance

Question for you directors

 

Who knew what and when?

 

Substantial part of the £80k put in in April 08 at time of rights issue

You and 3 other directors put your name to that document

A favourable comment

Deal of emphasis on banking licence

What did board discuss on banking licence?

Who believed you would get banking licence

We were completely and utterly misled.

What they knew and what a disgusting state of affairs

Plenty of numerous previous indications

Told what known about failure of impairment provisions

Why decide ……and go for banking licence

Open to me to propose resolution that the 4 directors concerned including yourself in office for 3+years should resign.

ANSWERS-

MY

Question of RI doc and who knew what is all part of entire matter discovered in February and much discussed at AGM. No merit in reopening what discussed in FI (?)

People responsible for misleading board dismissed on 30.06.

 

People who remain been as thoroughly investigated by Freshfields and Deloittes

We are still here

Share your anger and frustration

Question: How say good reason

Answer: Didn’t want to know or decided to look the other way

MY:

People still here consistently asked questions of executive directors, Lazards, PWC and Deloittes relating to the adequacy of impairment provisions and were regularly misled by members of the board

 

…….

Q: non execs to safeguard interests of shareholders.

Buck stops with those 4.

MY: Investment bankers thought that they had been given a most thorough grilling

If they deliberately mislead you you won’t get the right answer

 

All based on information which was completely incorrect

Regularly looking very closely into it

We were completely misled by a group of people no longer here

 

We have done everything that could be reasonably expected of a non executive director of the company

 

If a group determined don’t find out

If you saw the papers you would see we were clearly misled

 

Mr Gent

I want to stay with the proposition that the 4 non execs resign having reigned at collision(?)

 

Gary Stephens (Freshfields)

Not an appropriate resolution to put to shareholders

Proper procedure to give notice to put resolution to shareholders ot remove directors

 

A N Other (Accountant shareholder)

At a general meeting a proposition can be put up by anyone sharfeholder. It has to be seconded

Aas long as 50 people support it its carried

 

Mr Gent

I wish to bring pressure on them to resign

How can they stay when they have so appallingly failed?

 

Dredd J (for it is he) I will second his proposition

( at about this time I corrected FF to tell them that Mr Gent’s proposition was not a resolution to remove a director (for which both he and I know that notice has to be given) but a resolution asking them to consider resigning at end of year)

A Director( no longer silent ) Board has obligations to financial creditors

You are asking 3 4ths of the board to resign

There is a big job to be done

 

M Young Takes issue

Problems well known

Hindsight wonderful

No one who suggested they knew things had sense to take it to audit committee

Mr Gent; there was a long article in the Telegraph

 

MY :The 2008/7 non execs asked regular and intensive questions

 

McWalter (director )

Whether RI or otherwise whose serious task and responsibility director of co has to address make believe co on right track

Tremendous rigour shown by non exec directors in …prep of RI and every meeting

Regular challenges

Way fin…. Every ….

Documented in minutes

I believe I acted in completely professional way at the right times asked the right questions

Went back and pushed further

Have to work on facts figures and information

If incorrect because was prepared(?)

 

A Shareholder:

Astonished

Disappointed to advisors ot board

 

A shareholder

Auditors PWC

Why aren’t they being held responsible if not capable of finding it?

 

Add(?)

If all within power

Sitting not walking

Why leave auditors in place since February?

Once found out in April or Feb why keep in place?

What are you going to do about it

 

J SMITH (Director )

PWC not signed off anything since February.

Not progressed 08/09 audit.

As MY said PWC have resigned

Board filled vacancy with Grant Thornton who are working to progress accounts

CAN COMMENCE diligence(?) on outstanding accounts

To get new auditors on board didn’t …..

External work on impairment review

When that bottomed progress on impairment review

Forensic review

Rely on info from depts

Go to new firm of auditors

Any you are able to call on

Done relatively recently

Requested PWC to resign

Appointed Grant thornton

In respect of previous year ………

 

MY:

Didn’t realise till march or april that problem went back before 2008

If realised sooner…

First aware and see problem when accounts due to be signed off-end of Feb 09

Immediate ….

Scale of problem we didn’t know.

As Deloitte carried out work kept us updated

A number of issues to tackle re former auditors

Being investigated by AADB

They are being investigated

Co is looking at all possible actions against external advisors and claims made

Ascertaining all information

QUESTIONER

PWC done it for years- investigation by a government body-cosy-nothing happens.

 

MY

Cannot speak for creditors.

Company has everything in mind

 

DreddJ

Confirm taking advice about claims for breach of contract and/or negligence against PWC, Freshfields,Ddeloittes, Lazards, KPMG, Walker Morris and this not from Freshfields as they are involved?

 

MY:

Using a completely separate firm of legal advisors to take appropriate advice

 

Joe Visiteel

Previous crew ……..

Get SFO people in then Shareholders can go forward

 

Another Shareholder

Records…

You say you could only work on information provided and misled on information.

Is this not false accounting under the Theft Act?

 

MY

Not in a position to comment.

Everything gone on here and all relevant paperwork being examined by appropriate regulators and for them to determine

 

A J McWalter

As soon as we were aware that serious problem to address took appropriate steps and got the right people to conduct investigation very thoroughly and rigorously (typing that reminds me of Beyond the Fringe-“ quite suddenly and very vigorously vomited)

Information handed to appropriate people to deal with

Quickly moved to isolate people involved to get a secure position

All of the board were investigated

FACT OF INVESTIGATION WILL STAND AS TIME GOES ON

 

Ian Keeley-shareholder

Where did it start going wrong?

MY

In order to avoid impairing debt holding back ageing of debt therefore not impairing enough

 

Investigation focussed on unravelling 06/07/08

Would have liked to have gone back further to find out Who was the architect?

Too expensive-changed systems-difficult night impossible to go back

Documents on earlier years have been produced

Juniors bossed around kept documents-copies of e mails and memos-notes of discussions

didn’t show us earlier

Didn’t share anything

I said problem went back many years-earliest document 2002-maybe before that

Amount of debt being held back

For again small

Pulled back at end of (month or year)create …

Group of people had mantras “anyone can lend difficulty is getting it back”

 

DD earnings growth…….loan loss ratio…team had created ….record

 

Some CE PWC(?)

Others from sub prime

When lehmans collapsed we asked what about our impairment charge and we were told our client base is always in recession

Our impairment numbers were not materially different

I will think hard about being a non exec of a company again (now on the payroll as executive chairman on as yet undisclosed remuneration I observe)

…Supported by high quality internal and external advisors

Unless you can get your own accountants in and do your own investigations

Little by little

Customers affected

Market for product getting worse

Refinancing not happening

Market made it worse

Big problem in 08

If it weren’t for Q’s in 08 still would not have known

 

Shareholder

Walking the floor might help

 

ROSEDALE(Shareholder)

What has changed over the last 21 days that you were not able to tell us earlier.

We hold shares

MY

Sh is controversial(?).

Most of the number hold shares.

Over last 21 days having completed analysis of WCF couldn’t believe there was not a way forward.

Timely people paying back

Reanalysed details

Even if lent to good book over time they fall off and the return is not adequate to justify the risk.

Had to explain to financial creditors. Keen to find a way out of present problem

Explained to banks 7 December; to noteholders yesterday

A response-were they prepared to accept a recommendation

BM before this meeting

To report response

Confim and approve press release

Shareholder

Unfortunate we are learning this today

R EAST(dir)

Not had bondholder meeting yet- it is tomorrow

Sept all with them to advise(?) outcome of strategic review

Noteholder meeting yesterday

Final decision at this mornings meeting

 

Shareholder

Given todays RNS suggests plan gt window over 2-3 years.

WDF=£1.9b

Owe £2.7b

Isn’t it plan to crystallise loss of 800m

Has any particular class of bondholder or bank blocked a proposed business plan

 

Answer

Business plan could not record a viable business plan for WCF

Didn’t believe possible to make acceptable profit at acceptable risk

 

Shareholder

Doesn’t the board have any plan to bring back to stand alone strength?

Issues with collecting the good book?

MY

Modelled a number of ways forward

Doesn’t make a difference and because cant sell PPI-an important part of profit and loss account find new Cr top come up with money

We cant come up with a model

Shareholder

Board suggest b collect WCF

Possible …….over collections

Engage specialist debt collectors to get the most back

R East

We employ a range of specialist debt collectors

Focussed on …….

 

At this point I observe I interjected something and may well have got up to ask my questions

 

Dredd J

Restated 31.12.07 numbers show decline in interest income from £700m to £624 m- a difference of £75.9m.

How can this be accounted for?

JDS

Board looked at impairments and for year changed to reflect impairments made

DreddJ

Loan loss charge increases from £296.9m to £363.5 m please explain simply

JDS

Part of impairment review required figures to be restate

Dredd.j

Impairment of loans and receivables accounting policy spelt out on 07 report. Please explain how this has been incorrectly applied

JDS

Loan miss payment in arrears supposed to be at 120 days look at because it is then impaired.

Impairment provision then to book

Because payment was effectively deferred it wasn’t doe over 36m but over 37

Matter of it happening in operation

Note: I inadequately noted his attempt at simple explanation which I understood to be that a change was made in the accounting records so that when a payment was not made the loan period was extended so the initial payment not made was then shown as not having to be made so it was not due and therefore would not become overdue .

DreddJ

Did the terms of engagement of external auditors include any cap on liability of auditors for claims for negligence and/or breach of contract

Answer

No

DreddJ

How did the misapplication of impairment policies slip past internal auditors?

Answer

Company reviewing its options

DreddJ

Current year making over £1m/day loss on top of negatrive shareholders funds of £197m. How is this occurring?

Answer

Movement in loan loss charge

Not able to make prov agt(?)

Future payments may not be made

Every month people might not pay

At that stage move into impairment

DreddJ

How many of directors of WCF at 31.12.07 remain in employment of group now

Answer

Lucy Calver and she is finishing at the end of the month

DreddJ

What are the lengths of contract of the present directors

Answer

Non execs all same and 6 months notice

R East-12 months

JDS and MY 1 month either way

DreddJ

Why are shareholders only fed minimal information on how the company is trading? Example is Laura Barlow moving to RBS and why didn’t you confirm it when asked?

MY

We didn’t announce LB move publicly. She is leaving Alixpartners and WCF to go to RBS. It was announced internally

We are not obliged to

DreddJ

Assuming Standstill become effective will there e talks upon restructuring and is it intended to involve shareholders in cattles in the restructuring discussions

MY

First have to enquire of creditors

What terms they would require on restructuring

Then go to shareholders

DreddJ

How much has been spent on lawyers in 2009 to date?

JDS

Don’t know

 

At this stage my note is even more imperfect and I think it was suggested that the resolution that the 4 non exec Directors consider resigning

However MY said their “primary responsibility was to financial creditors” at which point I mentioned that even directors of RBS acknowledged a duty to shareholders

 

Shareholder

Why not resign

MY

If I was not confident that I had done everything reasonably possibly I would

 

Adam Gallagher- Freshfields-lectures the assembly

Important to understand directors duties to company. The company is embodied by the will of the shareholders or if insolvent according to the interests of the creditors

Interests of creditors probably not responsibility

Directors duties are to creditors

They would not be served by winding up the company

 

I think that Mr Gent was then getting cross as to why we were there if nothing could be done

 

G Stephens(Freshfields)

Companies Act requires convening of this meeting

To explain the situation

Consider the steps to take

Discussing a financial Restructuring with financial creditors

Directors duties owed to creditors

 

Shareholder

What powers do we have.

What can be put to this general meeting

GS

Companies Act does not require specific resolution to be put to shareholders

 

A N Other shareholder then got cross as the section was not available or known to GS

Who was pointed to notice of meeting “any asnd if so what steps be taken”

He said cannot take steps to wind up

 

Shareholder

Is it not right to put a resolution to shareholders

 

I then prepared a draft resolution but have no recollection of whether it went forward in terms”the company seek advice as to convening a meeting of members to consider and if thought fit approve a resolution that the company cannot by reason of its liabilities carry on in business and should be wound up.”

 

Adorian (shareholder)

Cash in bank and bank accounts

Major creditors applying set off

Money would otherwise be available

 

I then went off on one in the face of Freshfields and finished up proposing that the board put to the bank with the authority of the meeting that the company fund a petition for the winding up of the company by a shareholder up to £500000

 

At about this time I observed that the company was funding an appeal by bondholders against first instance decision to the tune of £1.5 m to satisfy a point of interest to somebody at Freshfields

 

There was a seconder to my proposition which finally got put to the vote

In Favour 10

Against 2

 

Shareholder

Is there any possibility going forward that the company can recover to where it is in profit

Answer(?MY)- No

 

Joe Visiteel

Ought to keep it going to find out who the people were who ha

D their habds in the till

A crime on a large scale

Either footsoldiers or a director

A director or directors have misled

That money should be traced and paid out to shareholders

 

JDS

Understands anger

Regrets loss of monies

Seen decisions made in anger

If (Dredd) wants it to go ahead personally thinks it is a terrible idea

Understands frustration but there are thousands of employees

A tragedy you have lost money

That is not our desire

 

Shareholder

What are the options

 

MY adjourn for 5 mins to take a break

 

Resumed meeting

MY

During break contact with 1 lead banker asked to request funding

He has undertaken to circulate up others dirung the course of the day and come up with an answer today

 

 

JDS

Will look at the shares being declared of negligible value to get capirtal loss

Will contact HMRC to see if able to do that

Shares have little or no value

Will try and see if that can be achieved

 

Shareholder

Pre Dec08 how many members of the board were members of audit committee

Would they share with the members minutes of Audit committee for 06, 07,08

Answer(MY)

MY;DH,FD,HMW

Personally would make them public

Have no problem with that

Very confidential

Possible difficulties

(the man from Freshfields was becoming agitated)

Don’t think it is possible

Dredd j

What if say up to 3 shareholders attended at HO in Birstall to inspect having given appropriate confidentiality undertaking

MY

I don’t think so

Shareholder

Clearly nature of loss on understanding is just accounts manipulation by pretending it wasn’t overdue. Benefit was keeping jobs. Sharteholders benefit from dividends

MY

No evidence of embezzlement of funds

 

We note the angry comments from shareholders

We will reflect and take stock

 

Meeting closed at 3 pm

[IainHL]

If you go on the Companies House website and look up Welcome Financial Services and Progressive Financial Services you will see that the two of them did a name swap on 01/12/2006 (ignore the entries with numbers beginning NF, they are Northern Ireland companies).

 

I believe that up to that point the company that had been Welcome and is now Progressive had been dormant for a while, having been formed on 30/11/1982 as Forbridge Finance Limited and changed its name on 01/12/1989 to Welcome Financial Services Limited.

 

This is why if you have an agreement from before December 2006 you will see it is written in the name "Progressive Financial Services Limited trading as Welcome Financial Services", and the legal charge on your property (for secured loans) is in the name of Progressive Financial Services Limited.

[steven4064]

Heres something else - if you have PPI (or other insurance), ask yourself the question "How does the Welcome - Direct Group - Norwich Union thing work?

 

Welcome gets the cover to cover payements, NU gets the premiums. What does Direct Group get? Who pays them?

 

Answer: you do. But where does it say that on your loan agreement? Where is the commission?

 

Answer: it must be part of the loan. However, commission is only allowed if you know about it. This is almost certainly an example of hidden commision and hidden commission is unlawful.

 

As far as the insurance loan is concerned, commission is a charge for credit and cannot be part of the loan amount. This means that the laon amount is wrong, the total charge for credit is wrong and the APR is wrong. And the agreement is unenforceable.

 

Thats Direct Group but it could well be that Welcome got commission too.

 

Before you make any offer, ask them (by them I mean Welcome, DG and NU) for the underwriting sheet showing the commissions paid on the insurance.

[Dibbothe3rd]

interesting point steven. basically if we pay say £1000 for insurance, you are saying that if Direct Group and Welcome get commission say 10% that we dont know about, then the actual cost of the insurance £1000 less the commission 10% = £900, but our agreement show £1000 without mention of commission we have been stuffed??

 

is that correct?