Not over yet! RGS1 vs HSBC

[RGS1]

So after the ruling this morning it seems the power is back in our hands.

 

I currently have a Small Claims court stay in place (started the court case in 2007, was given a court date but then the stay came in) i am guessing after todays ruling this will be removed.

 

Obviously then things should carry on as two years ago.

 

My claim was based on the old particulars that included the arguement about the charges being penalties, will i need to go back and amend this? If so how do i go about that?

 

I have included sections 2 and 5 of the UTCCR already as well but dont know if these need to be the sole arguement now.

Edited November 25, 2009 by RGS1
Extra info

[fzrkitten]

subscribing. .

[rob-the-viking]

Hello mate.

 

I'm with you on this, whilst the unsupreme court rulled against the OFT, they didn't rule as to if the charges are unfair or not, simply that the OFT can't investigate them.

 

I see us as being in the exact same place that we were some 30 months ago before the test case and before every case was stayed.

 

I'm currently waiting for people far more talented than me to read the full judgement and see how we proceed from there.

 

As far as I can see it, we can still go to court and ask the banks just how much it costs for them to pay a DD when overdrawn. As the newly revised charges that most customers are getting via email/post it is far from the £100 that they have charged in the past.

 

I very much doubt that the banks would be prepared to admit just how much it actually costs so they could still continue to pay out as before.

 

I don't at all see this as the end of the road, mearly a pause to check the map and find out which direction we go in from here.

 

For one thing, I'm glad that progress can now be made instead of the stalemate situation we've been in for all these months now.

[rob-the-viking]

The Consumer Forums - Announcements in Forum : HSBC Bank

 

Give it a couple of days for the dust to settle and let those who run this site and others like it rear the full judgement and I suspect there will be an idea of how to proceed.

 

the fat lady aint even in the building, let alone warming up!!

[johnnymitch]

Hi rob,

 

I like your reasoning there ..... what has changed from when the 'Test Case' reared it's ugly head as a time wasting exercise ...... ?

 

Not a lot ! the banks still won't want to answer in court as to what their actual costs are , - that's why they were making 'Goodwill' payments before the Case kicked in ... to keep that info out of the public domain ....

It may mean that the courts will be inundated again ..... and they've only got the 'Supreme Court ' to thank for that if they are .....

 

Meanwhile, it may be worth a petition to the PM , just to let him know the strength of feeling over this judgement ..... but we'll obviously take our lead from Bankfodder and the ST members on this, and other methods of retaliation .....

 

Onwards and Upwards !

[rudy691]

subbing

[RGS1]

If the banks apply for blanked dismissals to all cases in the small claims court, would we have a chance to appeal/oppose this action?

We didnt really have a chance with the stays but i am hoping this will be different.

Im chomping at the bit to get back to my claim, its quite liberating to know that its back in our hands not the OFT's.

[johnnymitch]

I can't see how the banks can obtain blanket dismissals , if everyone argues that their cases are unique in some way.....

 

We will have to wait and see , but I wonder if the 'Penalty Charges ' argument might not come back into being ......

 

Have to wait and see what BF and the gurus come up with ....let's give 'em time ...

[rob-the-viking]

The Consumer Forums - Announcements in Forum : General

 

Things are happening already it would appear! They don't hang about on this site! Kudos to all the team!

[RGS1]

Yeah they're pretty brilliant.

 

Im guessing a change in our POC's is in order.

[rudy691]

The Consumer Forums - Announcements in Forum : General

 

Things are happening already it would appear! They don't hang about on this site! Kudos to all the team!

 

nice i'll be one of them newbies on the new way of claiming back charges, as im getting my SAR on Saturday

[RGS1]

14. Further, under the UTCCR:

 

"5. - (1) A contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer.

 

(2) A term shall always be regarded as not having been individually negotiated where it has been drafted in advance and the consumer has therefore not been able to influence the substance of the term.

 

(3) Notwithstanding that a specific term or certain aspects of it in a contract has been individually negotiated, these Regulations shall apply to the rest of a contract if an overall assessment of it indicates that it is a pre-formulated standard contract.

 

(4) It shall be for any seller or supplier who claims that a term was individually negotiated to show that it was."

 

Schedule 2 also includes such clauses (to define examples of unfair clauses) as:

 

"(i) irrevocably binding the consumer to terms with which he had no real opportunity of becoming acquainted before the conclusion of the contract;

 

(j) enabling the seller or supplier to alter the terms of the contract unilaterally without a valid reason which is specified in the contract;

 

(m) giving the seller or supplier the right to determine whether the goods or services supplied are in conformity with the contract, or giving him the exclusive right to interpret any term of the contract."

 

The defendant is a multi-national corporation. The term regarding charges was inserted unilaterally in contract. The contract was pre and mass produced and I had no opportunity to negotiate the clause, or indeed any of the contract.

 

I have this in my witness statement, anybody know if this is enough or will iI need to send in an amendment to make it stronger??

[Zorro01]

subbing

[Castlebest]

Hiya RGS, that looks fine to me however, I would wait until the site team publish the new poc in the next few days and see how it sits alongside that .

 

pete

[RGS1]

Do you think it is worth requesting the removal of the stay now and then changing POCif needed in a weeks time. It shows were doing something then, just worried about the banks trying to get claims struck out.

Do you think they could get struck out without anyone having the chance to argue?

[johnnymitch]

I wouldn't put it past them to try a sneaky one , not sure if they'd succeed - if they apply for the stay to be lifted I'd say you have to have a chance to continue with your case, before a judge would strike it out .

 

My son has already sent the letter to the court asking for his stay to be lifted and a hearing date set ...... if he has to change the POCs he can do it before the hearing ....... so it's really your choice I think , although I think the revised POCs will be out pretty soon ...

 

I'll keep the site informed on how my son's application goes .... I also got him to send a copy of the letter to HSBC - in the hope that it might prompt an offer of settlement before they have to go the court route again........ He had an offer of full refund and accepted 2 days ! before the bar dropped in July 07 ...... and they reneged ......... so it's cost them another few quid in interest since then

[RGS1]

I have sent the letter out and one to DG solicitors too. I added in a bit about regecting a strikeout too on the same basis as the stay removal.

 

Like your son I can then change my POC's if I need to at a later date. Hopefully this works though, Im not too confident of getting a settlement offer though. I only had one right at the start of my complaint and it was for under half the amount I was asking for. So im sure the added interest will make the refusal even more worth while lol.

[johnnymitch]

Just a case of wait and see then RGS , this is kind of uncharted territory at the moment ,,,,,,

[berrylover]

What did your son put in the letter? Just basically asking for the stay to be lifted and for a court date to be appointed? A copy of his letter would be appreciated RGS1

[johnnymitch]

There you go berrylover .... you can obviously adjust to suit your circs ....but that is the letter he sent .

DATE: xx xxx xxxx

 

Re. Claim no. xxxxxxxx

In xxxxxx County Court

 

XXXXX XXXXXX

 

-V-

 

 

HSBC BANK PLC

 

 

With reference to my claim for the refund of bank charges dated x xxx xxxx which was stayed by the court on xx xxx xxxx to await the outcome of the Test Case brought against the banks by the Office of Fair Trading ;

 

As you may be aware the Supreme Court pronounced its verdict on 25/11/09 and has indicated within its judgment that a challenge to the “fairness” of my banking contract under regulation 5 of the unfair terms in consumer contracts regulations 1999(UTCCR) may be an appropriate way of seeking redress.

 

My initial claim was centered on regulation 5 of the UTCCR and as such it is not affected by the Supreme Court judgment.

 

I would therefore respectfully request that the stay be lifted, any necessary directions be given and a date be given to hear my claim

 

Yours faithfully

 

If the forum here finds that the POCs need adjustment ....i.e. specific clause within Reg 5 then he'll have time to adjust it before a hearing.... he just wanted to get things moving .......

btw , the heading 'xxxx v HSBC Bank plc ' should be centred ... I can't get it to stay there at the moment :grin:

Edited November 30, 2009 by johnnymitch
Tidying up font markings......

[johnnymitch]

Having said that berrylover , I would draw your attention to the Headline announcement above this site , which advocates waiting until the legal team can produce fresh advice on how to proceed ... with revised POCs if necessary .

 

The Consumer Forums - Announcements in Forum : HSBC Bank

Edited December 1, 2009 by johnnymitch

[johnnymitch]

strange ...... that 'legal team ' above was originally leagal seagulls (with legal correctly spelt ! )- it always comes up 'I'm an orange' for some weird reason .....

Edited December 1, 2009 by johnnymitch

[RGS1]

Anyone else received a letter from DG???

Ill scan it and post it up here when i get the scanner to work.

[RGS1]

Here is the letter.

[RGS1]

Anyone know how i can post it with all pages and a decent size??