Forcing Religion on the Young

[SOD'EM]

I stopped talking to my imaginary friends when I was 9

 

 

What are you doing talking to us then Woody?.

[Desperate Daniella]

I had an imaginary friend called Gaga. She's just been reincarnated as a rock star.

 

In answer to your question Tez:

 

If you are a Catholic it is your duty to have your child baptised as soon as possible after birth. My daughter is too young to make any decision about religion, but she is being brought up as Catholic and she enjoys going to church, lighting candles and saying her prayers. She chooses who she prays for (including various deceased cats). It is not rammed down her throat. It certainly wasn't rammed down mine.

 

DD

[Mungypup]

I posted this on another thread but thought it was a funny take on the subject of this thread.

 

 

Dave Allen puts a comical spin on his experience of being brought up with religeon.

[Tezcatlipoca]

I had an imaginary friend called Gaga. She's just been reincarnated as a rock star.

 

In answer to your question Tez:

 

If you are a Catholic it is your duty to have your child baptised as soon as possible after birth. My daughter is too young to make any decision about religion, but she is being brought up as Catholic and she enjoys going to church, lighting candles and saying her prayers. She chooses who she prays for (including various deceased cats). It is not rammed down her throat. It certainly wasn't rammed down mine.

 

DD

 

You believe it your duty to put your child through ritualistic ceremonies in order to reaffirm your own unverifiable belief system? I see.

 

You say "It is not rammed down her throat. It certainly wasn't rammed down mine.", and there's no suggestion it has been. But it has clearly psychologically conditioned you to subscribe to the faith you do, rather than you coming to it as an adult by means of logical, objective reasoning.

 

Of course, as Barracad and myself point out, there is a difference between learned behaviour and enforced behaviour.

As I've said before, children, like any animal of the primate order, acquire the vast majority of their early knowledge and behaviour through mimicry of other primates in their social group, most notably their parents. So is simply practicing your religious belief in itself an act of behavioural enforcement?

 

To repeat my earlier point, I don't think even the most ardent atheist would consider that simply following your faith is enforcing it on your children, in most cases. I say most cases, since the distinction is less clear cut when you are talking about religious ritualisation being practiced on children for the spiritual gratification of their parents (your decision to baptise your daughter is a good example of this).

 

To return to the thread topic specifically (the Athiest Bus campaign), I - despite rejecting anything which is illogical, nonsensical or outright idiotic - strongly suspect the majority of people in this campaign are a little too ready to see religious conditioning where it may not exist. There comes a point in knee-jerk reactions when they say more about the person whose knee is jerking than they do about the subject at hand.

 

Just out of interest, DD, I'd be curious to know how you - or indeed even if you - intend to present contrary belief systems, or the lack of belief systems, to your child. You indicate that she's not yet old enough to ask about these things, but when she does start questioning why mummy believes what she does - and she will - do you think you'll consider it your Catholic duty to deny alternatives to your religious worldview?

I'm genuinely curious as to how you think you will philosophically square your belief system with your natural intention as a mother to impart an informed and balanced a world view to your child in order to better ready them for life.

[Maggie_moo]

 

Of course, at the same time it is equally important not to commit the same oversight and force atheism on the young by rejecting all religious belief systems.

 

How do you force someone not to have religious beliefs?

[Tezcatlipoca]

How do you force someone not to have religious beliefs?

 

By the simple inverse of forcing belief, of course. By condemning religious belief systems as undesirable, by giving your child only negative views of religion, by actively surpressing any interest they may show in investigating a religion belief system, and so on.

 

Neuro-linguistic programming human beings, and especially children, is alarmingly easy...

 

...which really underpins the essence of this thread. At what point does a parent's personal faith in a belief system cease to be something the child simply copies, and start to become the parent's direct enforcement of their belief systems on the child?

[Bookworm]

How do you force someone not to have religious beliefs?

Easy, with logic and science. There is a natural evolution in kids from believing in everything to sifting towards reality as they grow up, from fairies to Santa Claus. I firmly believe that if you don't expose kids to religion, or if you do in the same way as you read them fairy tales or tell them about Santa (ie NOT telling them it's all true when it blatantly isn't), they would grow up to disregard it the way they do with the other stories.

 

Quite coincidentally, my daughter is watching Louis Theroux: Most hated Family, about this extremist religious sect which pickets soldiers' funerals and gay people's funerals etc... (in the US) Scary.

[Maggie_moo]

Well, I have a question.

 

My partner is a catholic, I have no religious inclinations at all. We have been wrangling over our daughter being christened for years (so far I'm winning ). If she is christened does this mean we are forcing a religious ceremony on her? If not, does this mean I'm forcing my non-religious views? She's now seven and I think she would probably love the ceremony, but it's still not gonna happen

 

 

Quite coincidentally, my daughter is watching Louis Theroux: Most hated Family, about this extremist religious sect which pickets soldiers' funerals and gay people's funerals etc... (in the US) Scary.

 

I think I saw these people on Jeremy Kyle, shocking behavour and nothing to do with religion. I would like to think if you believe in any religion it should bring you comfort and peace, not using it as an excuse to spout nonsense.

[Tezcatlipoca]

from fairies to Santa Claus.

 

Why are you including Santa as an example of things that aren't real...? I don't understand..

[Bookworm]

Interesting question Maggie. My daughter got conned into baptism a few years ago and yes, I say "conned" because all she saw was the ceremony and the fuss being made etc, and did it because her mate was doing it and she wanted to be part of it all... but when you queried her actual religious belief, she didn't subscribe to any of it.

 

If she wants to be christened, she can choose to do so herself when she's old enough to decide for herself. That's not forcing non-religious views, it's giving them free will, something which ironically, the church keeps on telling us that's what it's all about...

 

Yes, the Phelps family in Texas (where else? LOL) was the religious nutters I was talking about. And WOW. They make Al-Quaeda look like altar boys, but without the commitment: they don't blow themselves up, instead they wave placards applauding the death of people.

[Bookworm]

Why are you including Santa as an example of things that aren't real...? I don't understand..

Sorry Tez, I didn't mean Santa, I meant... errr... SAUNA. That's right, it's a Swedish myth. Sorry for the confusion.

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Tez,

 

I actually do believe in God and that there is an afterlife. I can't prove it, and you can't prove it isn't there either.

 

I have looked at it as an adult and have had a number of very interesting theological discussions about the whole subject. It might have been my religion as a child but it doesn't mean I couldn't look at the subject logically when I was in my 20s. Interestingly enough a number of barristers have become priests and I imagine that they looked at it all from an intellectual point of view during their theology degrees.

 

I have had signs from people who have died - sometimes on days when I have been very low something has happened which has comforted me. There are often signs around the anniversary of a death and they are quite often simply inexplicable. A friend of mine who is an atheist says she has no comfort about her late brother because she never sees any signs, and she wonders why I do......... In fact my entire family have had signs from one of us who died.

 

Earlier this year a very loved friend of mine also died. He was an atheist and used to say he didn't believe in God, to which I would reply, "Well God believes in you."

 

When he died there were two totally different, but very distinct signs. One thing happened four times over the days around his death - clearly his little joke on me. It had never happened before in my entire life and it hasn't happened since. The second continues to this day, although now less frequently. Again, totally inexplicable but totally him.

 

I have also seen an abused animal - RSPCA case cat (which means she'd been taken from her owners who avoided prosecution by signing her over) who hardly trusted anyone - approach of her own volition a priest who was visiting my house. She just heard his voice and approached him. He's now a bishop, and from that day on she decided she trusted adults and became the most sociable cat in the world.

 

I have no doubt that many people won't credit any of these things, but they happened.

 

Like many Catholics I was not that interested for some years and went to mass only at Christmas, Easter and so on. I still believed - I just didn't go to mass that often. Then, some adult friends of mine converted to Catholicism and I went along to their confirmation at Westminster Cathedral and I just felt "at home" and started going to mass again.

 

My daughter does not go to a Catholic school. Not something I had expected would happen, but she didn't for various reasons which I won't go into here because they are not actually relevant to religion. However, the school has a Christian ethos and the Lord's Prayer is said every morning.

 

Two of the children in my daughter's class are Indian but I have no idea of their religious beliefs. However, on the festival of Diwali all the children in the class were told about Diwali and asked if they wanted a bindi. My daughter loved hers.

 

They have made cholla at school which she had eaten before because one of my best friends happens to be Jewish and I think my daughter wouldn't mind that religion because there is lots of smoked salmon - and she likes other traditional Jewish food too.

 

I have friends of every creed and they all came to her baptism. Baptism is a welcome into the faith and a celebration. Obviously she won't remember the day although she likes the pictures.

 

Another friend of mine who has no religion has a daughter who doesn't go to a faith school who suddenly came home from school and said she wanted to be christened (CoE). She didn't have friends who were being christened so no influence there, but the school (Year 1) had been discussing comparative religions.

 

At the end of the day, some of us have our religious beliefs which, as maggiemoo says, should being us "comfort and peace", and we can all decide for ourselves.

 

As the wonderful Dave Allen used to say, "May your God go with you", and if anyone doesn't want that then that's fine too. Each to his own.

 

DD

[Dodgy Geezer]

Im VERY religious, and therefore imposed my beliefs on my children from a very early age.

 

Every Saturday afternoon at 3pm, we all pray for 90 minutes.

[**Tilly**]

Im VERY religious, and therefore imposed my beliefs on my children from a very early age.

 

Every Saturday afternoon at 3pm, we all pray for 90 minutes.

 

[Tezcatlipoca]

Hi Tez,

 

I actually do believe in God and that there is an afterlife. I can't prove it, and you can't prove it isn't there either.

 

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, hmm?

 

For me, belief systems fall into the same category as most obsolete thinking. We once burned witches, but are rather now more educated so have left the practice behind. We once believed the earth flat, but are rather now more educated so have left the idea behind. We once believed in Gods, but...you get the idea.

Obviously, there are people who still continue to believe in witches, just as there are some who probably believe the earth to be flat; hell, we live in a world where some people believe in such asinine ideas as Democracy, so anything is possible.

 

For example: You mentioned a friend who died, but was nevertheless instrumental - post mortem - in causing events in your life.

You see God. I see classic apophenia; the ability (defect?) of the human brain to see patterns and meaning in what is essentially random, coincidental and/or meaningless data. A great literary example of this appears in the cult-classic The Illuminatus! Trilogy; you believe enough in the number 23 and you can be certain, with absolute 'proof', of seeing it everywhere, or, to put it another way: "A friend of mine who is an atheist says she has no comfort about her late brother because she never sees any signs, and she wonders why I do". You see them because you expect to see them, and confirmation bias ensures you do. This is of course subtly different from whether or not they're really there.

 

As a set of imaginative teaching tools to promote social cohesion and responsibility, or as a method of conditioning to give meaning and psychological stability to what is essentially a random, chaotic existence, I think religion certainly has had - and to a degree still has - it's place.

 

The problem here, for me as well as I don't claim to know the answer to this one, is at what point does practising your own faith count as conditioning your children to follow suit? Does it ever?

 

You see, despite being somebody who doesn't feel the need to subscribe to a religion, there's something about the Athiest Bus campaign that sits uncomfortably with me. I think, re-reading over the original article (link repeated HERE), it's their distinctly - and ironically - 'preachy' way of making their statement that does them a disservice.

[roony]

Reductionist & so called spiritually lacking Science, both as fanatical & extremist as any religion

 

Teaching a child to be a sterile isolated from nature & his/her spirituality, automaton, corporate consumer, subject to absolute logic & structures, is just as destructive as any organised religion.

 

 

Tradition & culture, when a religion is taught as part of your natural heritage or culture, concepts, most ppl here in the west dont have a clue about, can be extremely beneficial in the growth of a child.

 

 

Religion when taught for the sake of religion, becomes destructive & fanatical, when its taught as part of your natural culture & heritage, it becomes a way of connecting to your community & past.

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Tez,

 

I mentioned that particular friend but I have had many incidences of events that have occurred after friends or family have died, although I'm not going to go into all of them, chapter and verse, on this forum.

 

I did not/do not expect to see any particular item/sign. It would be absolutely crazy for me to be thinking, for example, my friend always had a soft spot for greyhounds (he didn't) and all of a sudden I am seeing greyhounds everywhere.... I think that would be wishful thinking from someone looking for a sign. I have never looked for anything after a death - the realization that certain things are occurring takes time to register.

 

I am psychic to a certain extent - thank God today I can't be burned as a witch. It runs in our family. It runs in other families too. I'm not going to be the only person on this forum who is psychic.

 

Religion can be a good thing or, as we know, it can be a bad thing. If you don't have a belief, you won't miss it; if you do then it can be a good thing in your life. I am not talking about fanatics here, just normal people who go to church and feel good about their own particular God, and believe He is a positive part of their life. And, surely, there's nothing wrong with that?

 

DD

[barracad]

I'm not going to be the only person on this forum who is psychic.

 

Not really a straightforward question - you won't find anybody on this forum who is psychic because there's no such thing, it's all a load of rubbish. However, there may be some people who are deluded enough to believe that they are psychic, or confidence tricksters who claim to be psychic.

 

(But... let me guess... you knew I was going to say that, right?!)

[Desperate Daniella]

Well, I knew someone would.

 

Have you checked out every thread on the forum?

 

I would agree with you that, of course, there are confidence tricksters who pretend to be psychic, but they are in it for the money, and that is something totally different.

[Desperate Daniella]

Psychic isn't predicting the lottery. It's just a feeling you get when you really know that something awful has happened, or someone has died, and that sort of thing. It's inexplicable.

[barracad]

It's inexplicable.

 

It's coincidental.

[Desperate Daniella]

Maybe sometimes it is, even most of the time. No (genuinely) psychic person can choose what they get coming through.

 

That's the point. Otherwise, every single missing person case could be solved by a psychic - Madeleine McCann, the Moors victims, and so on. But just because there isn't an instant psychic solving these cases doesn't mean that there aren't people who are psychic.

 

Many years ago, after the death of a friend, I was approached by a total stranger at a party. She knew nothing about me, just came up to me and asked me about this person. I went to see her. It helped. It didn't cost me any money. After his death, I had excrutiating backache every morning for almost two years. The day after I saw her it wasn't there, and never came back. I hadn't mentioned that to her at all.

 

(No, the people holding the party hadn't told her about me. I was just accompanying a friend to what was a last minute invitation for him, and he could bring someone.)

 

Another friend of mine was told, again by a total stranger, that one of her siblings had died. She told this woman that she must have meant her brother-in-law who had just died, but the woman was insistent it was one of her own brothers or sisters. A week later she discovered one of her brothers had been drowned, at least two weeks earlier. No-one in the family knew he was missing, let alone dead.

 

Can't all be coincidences, surely?

Edited January 17, 2010 by Desperate Daniella

[Thailand]

I'll be honest - I am sickened by religion. It caused me teenage havoc that was pure evil, but that's neither here nor there - just explains why I hate it so. Religion was forced on me and I resent it. If I weren't gay, they may have got away with it, but they know (them Catholics in this instance) that they will not accept me - like I care. I mean it was so harsh I had to find out why they were talking so much cr*p, and I might have bought it if it wasn't for obviouis hypocritical lies. Yes lies! Sick people.

 

Just so you know, they do not like it...no matter what you may believe. Forget what I will go on to link to, just know they won't (and maybe you don't either). Anyway, the pope needs to be removed from the Vatican and sent to a hot place only he and some believe in. Yes, I don't! And he is a monster. Yep, I'm too mad with those idiots to care about being reasoned! I'm also mad he sent a memo telling his pervs that it should be kept secret until they are adults. Source was TV, though I'll bet it was fact.

 

A little (and I mean a little) research soon liberated me from the evil sh*t. (No, it's not that I wasn't shown the light - it's just complete ar*e fodder[research again very handy]). I also love the golden rule that those that preach religion, often have absolutely no clue of it whilst telling silly athiests to behave. Sad. Glad I moved past agnostic.

 

I am thankful for the internet for that liberation through exposure; something that is the reserve of modernity, for me. I'm lucky. Imagine being trapped in a world with only corrupt, bent communication when dealing with these hooky f***s!

 

I'm so glad those years of anguish are behind me. There is NO excuse for indoctrination, unless you accept that you will, dangnabit, force people to believe - and clearly that's bad - those that do it are blinded by the same evil. I realise that people don't see it - but I sure wish they would. I realise that it, though horrific, is because the indoctrinated through no fault of their own (potentially) suffered an indoctrinator. What a b*tch! and it goes on and on until someone stops believing in the gods (I don't know which one).

 

I was about to go further here but I better not...but could I ask, anyone who believes or not that they watch this debate, because I'd like to come back to it.

 

Anne Widdecombe fans look away... Steven Fry fans (me) look on. No really, it's a very fair debate.

 

YouTube - The Intelligence Squared Debate, Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry vs The Catholics (1 of 5)

[Thailand]

I'll be honest - I am sickened by religion. It caused me teenage havoc that was pure evil, but that's neither here nor there - just explains why I hate it so. Religion was forced on me and I resent it. If I weren't gay, they may have got away with it, but they know (them Catholics in this instance) that they will not accept me - like I care. I mean it was so harsh I had to find out why they were talking so much cr*p, and I might have bought it if it wasn't for obviouis hypocritical lies. Yes lies! Sick people.

 

Just so you know, they do not like it...no matter what you may believe. Forget what I will go on to link to, just know they won't (and maybe you don't either). Anyway, the pope needs to be removed from the Vatican and sent to a hot place only he and some believe in. Yes, I don't! And he is a monster. Yep, I'm too mad with those idiots to care about being reasoned! I'm also mad he sent a memo telling his pervs that it should be kept secret until they are adults. Source was TV, though I'll bet it was fact. I wasn't clear...I meant his issuance of a memo telling his mob that any allegations of child abuse/rape should be covered up until they are young adults as it's not good news for Catholicism

 

A little (and I mean a little) research soon liberated me from the evil sh*t. (No, it's not that I wasn't shown the light - it's just complete ar*e fodder[research again very handy]). I also love the golden rule that those that preach religion, often have absolutely no clue of it whilst telling silly athiests to behave. Sad. Glad I moved past agnostic.

 

I am thankful for the internet for that liberation through exposure; something that is the reserve of modernity, for me. I'm lucky. Imagine being trapped in a world with only corrupt, bent communication when dealing with these hooky f***s!

 

I'm so glad those years of anguish are behind me. There is NO excuse for indoctrination, unless you accept that you will, dangnabit, force people to believe - and clearly that's bad - those that do it are blinded by the same evil. I realise that people don't see it - but I sure wish they would. I realise that it, though horrific, is because the indoctrinated through no fault of their own (potentially) suffered an indoctrinator. What a b*tch! and it goes on and on until someone stops believing in the gods (I don't know which one).

 

I was about to go further here but I better not...but could I ask, anyone who believes or not that they watch this debate, because I'd like to come back to it.

 

Anne Widdecombe fans look away... Steven Fry fans (me) look on. No really, it's a very fair debate.

 

YouTube - The Intelligence Squared Debate, Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry vs The Catholics (1 of 5)

 

..

[Desperate Daniella]

Thailand,

 

I am so sorry you had such a bad time, and were treated so badly in the name of religion. Sadly, every religion has its bad people.

 

My atheist friend who died (if you have read the post above) was gay. I don't think I have ever laughed so much with anyone as I did with him for more than 20 years. He was 19 when I met him and hadn't come out, and didn't for some years after that. We would get quite hysterical imagining the reaction of various friends of ours but - apart from his father who did react badly - no-one else turned a hair. Some people had guessed, it simply hadn't occurred to others. But it didn't matter. He was a friend - and loved - and that was it really. We had two Catholic priests in our large group of friends as well, and everyone just got on as mates. (It wasn't a "Catholic" group, I hasten to add - a complete mixture of everything.)

 

I totally agree with you that the Catholic Church (and other churches/religions too for that matter) had covered up the most dreadful abuse in both schools and the convents of the 50s and 60s, and even later. It was absolutely wrong that there should have been any attempted cover up - anyone guilty should have been prosecuted in the normal way - but I do have great hopes of the new Cardinal, Vincent Nichols. I hope he is the down to earth Liverpudlian he appears to be.

 

I'm really sorry you suffered so badly.

 

DDxx