Forcing Religion on the Young

[Tezcatlipoca]

Ok, so Uncle Tez, being in favour of intellectual freedom, has being following this campaign, and others like it, with some interest.

 

The purpose of this thread is to get a range of opinions from CAG denizens, not so much on this campaign per se, but rather on the whole morality of parents forcing - regardless of intentions - their religious belief systems on their young.

 

Yes, I am acutely aware that you can make a simple, if moronic, argument that not forcing your belief systems on your child is in itself forced belief by the inverse in that it teaches the child to reject belief systems, but for the purposes of simplicity and thread clarity, let's just keep this as a discussion on those parents who do, for whatever reason, bring their spawn up to believe in the same God/Goddess/Flying Spaghetti Monster that they do.

 

So, is it morally justifiable to force your religious belief systems on your child/children? Do you even consider there's a moral question to answer? or do you believe that bringing junior up to believe as you do is morally unjustifiable?

[postggj]

Take It From Me

 

Dont Force Religious Beliefs On Children

 

I Ended Up In A Catholic Secondary School

 

Shall We Say Late 70s

 

Religion Was Forced On Us And As A Result I Am A Non Believer

 

It Was Forced By The Cane

 

Let The Child Decide When He/she Is Old Enough To Understand

[Bookworm]

No matter what your belief (or lack of) may be, be prepared to play Devil's advocate with your kids and then let them decide. I bit my tongue through my DD's religious errings (red 'errings, fnar fnar) and when she took the atheist argument, I countered with the religious oneS, when she went religious on us, I debated atheism, and said nothing when she was going a way I was not happy about.

 

Eventually, she chose for herself, but it WAS her choice. On the way, I have tried to teach her about tolerance for other people's beliefs or lack of and respect that whatever floats your boat, as long as you don't try to ram it down other people's throats, is to be accepted, and even if you inwardly look down on them, you should respect that we are all different.

 

Oh yeah, I have also taught that in order to argue efficiently, you need to actually read and understand the other side's argument. It's amazing how many people who call themselves christians have actually never read the Bible. (But don't try this at home with Jehovah's Witnesses unless you have a LOT of free time, lol)

[Jan4a]

Do the catholic schools still make kids spend at least half an hour stood up in assembly at prayers every morning? Kids regularly fainted when I was at school. All it did was put me off for life.

 

I would say school tried to pressure me, parents didn't. But then again they chose my catholic school .........

[SOD'EM]

Not much to do with the thread but my father always taught me (and still does), never talk about politics, religion or football in a pub. Best words he ever taught me.

 

On the other hand, I detest anyone who forces any beliefs whatsoever on anyone. Whether it be about religion or anything else. My dad still goes to church now but never forced us kids to go. I was in a church choir when I was a kid because I wanted to be (even though it was not our family religion), but I don't go now. I won't even call myself a true football fan as I don't attend any live matches.

 

I believe the most important thing I can teach my kids is not to make the same mistakes as I did growing up (and still now). Although we all make mistakes, I think if you can prevent someone from doing the same thing wrong, then you can speak up. It's amazing even now how many times I say to myself "I wish I would have listened to (and not ignored) what my dad told me years ago".

[cymruambyth]

It is difficult, because if you force religion on people they rebel. However if you can get them to abide to the basic tenets of any religion (NOT EXTREMIST) then they should be tolerent and better prepared to deal with life.

[sea-sidelady]

Do the catholic schools still make kids spend at least half an hour stood up in assembly at prayers every morning?

 

No it is a lot more relaxed now than it was. I remember having to do all that.

 

Ours had a chapel in the school, we used to dread that room, Pray and sing for hours. Now it is used as a place to chill out.

 

I would say school tried to pressure me, parents didn't. But then again they chose my catholic school .........

 

So did mine, and then so did I. But the catholic schools round here are the nicest schools in the area. There are plenty non religious kids that go there.

[Bookworm]

However if you can get them to abide to the basic tenets of any religion (...) then they should be tolerent and better prepared to deal with life.

Ah but you see, that then implies that people who do NOT teach their kids within a religion (any) don't get that, and that's not nice a thing to say about atheists, is it?

[charleyfarley]

By definition, you try to bring your kids up as best you can, and try and pass on the wisdom and experience you've gained, using the set of ideas,values, and beliefs that have sustained you. If this includes your religious beliefs then that's fair enough. But it's also important that you try and encourage your kids to have an enquiring mind, to enable them to judge for themselves, when they're able, whether these values and beliefs are for right for them.

[locutus]

Well, I had the choice for my kids of a catholic school and a non-religious school. I am an atheist, and I have read the Bible (twice because I didn't understand it all the 1st time.... I wasn't much better off the second. I was expecting a to feel something more profound. Jolly good book though! ) so I chose the non-religious school. Well, as it turns out, the head teacher is a Jehovah's witness. I have no problem with that, except the kids go on an outing to a church once every fortnight ish. I just wish they'd offer some balance and take them to a synagogue or a mosque every now and then!

 

I do get a lot of questions about Jesus and bible stories, and as an atheist, I probably don't project the enthusiasm that they're used to into the stories. When all is said and done, kids will see how their parents are and that behavior is then validated and justified for them to act.

[sequenci]

I don't go for ancient wisdom

I don't beliieve just because ideas are tenacious it means they are worthy

I get freaked out by churches

Some of the hymns that they sing have nice chords, but the lyrics are dodgy

 

And yes I have all of the usual objections to the miseductation of children forced into cult institution and taught to externalise blame and to feel ashamed and to judge things as plain right or wrong - but I quite like the songs.

[sea-sidelady]

Most people just follow their parents religion. Whether they believe or understand it.

 

As long as its not forced on them, they do tend to make a choice as they get older. My son is catholic, but you would never see him in a church (unless they were giving cash away!)

[Mungypup]

I don't have any children so I can't speak from a parents perspective. My mother is quite into religion (Christian). My father says he believes but doesn't have quite the same passion as my mother. I have to say that I think they gave me the best upbringing possible when it comes to religion. My parents have their beliefs, but it was never forced onto us. I don't as a child remember them speaking about it very much at all and we never had to go to chuch, except when I was a Brownie I had to go with them, oh, and my parents liked us to go for midnight mass which we thought was more magical than religious so we didn't mind. I guess they didn't want to influence us too much. We were brought up to have our own opinions, have morals, treat others with respect and accept the opinions of others. We were taught to judge people on their actions, nothing else, not their looks, religion, sexual orientation, colour or anything else. I feel blessed to have been brought up the way we were, with free minds, to see things as they are for ourselves not be told by others. I have to say though I did feel a little uncomfortable recently when my Mum had a stroke, I went to see her after and she was saying she wasn't scared she knows she is being looked after and is in the lords hands. I am glad it gives her comfort, but even as an adult I still haven't figured out what I do believe yet , and as I was never use to her speaking about her beliefs as a child I find it a bit uncomfortable when she speaks about them now. I never know quite what to say, other than I'm glad she has that comfort. I would like to think if I had children (although I have no intention of doing so) that I would bring them up open minded as I was.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Mungypup

[MONX]

I believe that once man became organised, learned to communicate, they needed a reason for unexplained things and the idea of a "higher being" or some kind of entity that was controlling things was a comfort to them. As communities became larger and started to interact with societies further afield, law and order became a large motivating factor towards the "higher being" or entity "relaying" laws and tennants that the faithful should follow on pain of death and possible censure in the "afterlife".

 

As an athiest who was babtised Catholic (but never practiced) I have too many questions and there are not enough valid answers for me to ever be involved in organised religion.

 

I do however believe that there are some great bits in all the holy books, the Talmud, Bible, Koran etc. There are some great examples on how to strive to live your life without harming others, seing things from others point of view etc. These are the things that I would and did empart to my daughter. I dont have any problem with anyone having a faith in Mohammed, Christ, Yawah, Buddah etc but I do have a problem when they try to convert others by indoctrination or by war.

 

Having said that I do think that children will almost always follow the faith they are most exposed to which will almost always be that of their parents and although parents may not wish to indoctinate their children, they will go with what they know and what they see thier parents do/say/believe.

[woody1066]

I stopped talking to my imaginary friend when I was 9

[andydd]

All hail the Flying Spaghetti Monster *bows*

[barracad]

So, is it morally justifiable to force your religious belief systems on your child/children?

 

How would you define 'forcing' religion. For example, if you have a strong religious belief then this will clearly affect how you live your life at home and affect your moral values - children will be brought up in this environment. Likewise, if you regularly attend a church/mosque/synagogue then naturally you will take your children with you, especially when they are young, as you generally take them everywhere with you. Would you call that forcing religion? They would have a distinct knowledge of what religion is, and understand that you truly believe in it... but is that different from forcing religion?

 

By forcing religion to you mean more of trying to force children to believe in something rather than making a decision for themselves. (I think all religions require a personal decision to be made somewhere along the way). And forcing them to take part in activities/pray/sing/etc? Is there a difference, in your opinion, between forcing and encouraging?

[MONX]

Hmmm this is what I was sort of what I was aluding to at the end of my post but I think but there is a very big difference in say the Catholic, Jewish and Muslim faiths where physical and spiritual decisions are taken whilst children are infants, the Bris which is a Jewish religious custom where the male child has his foreskin removed, the equivilant in the Muslim faith and then there is the Babtising or Christening of babies in the Catholic and Christian faiths.

 

These are decisions that the child cannot undo at a later date, ok Babtisms/Christenings are only spiritual decisions but when a child is old enough to perhaps change that decision they are so used to the faith that they were born into, it is unlikely that they would consider converting to another faith. Far be it for me to talk on Tez's behalf but I think that is kinda what he was getting at.

[Tezcatlipoca]

Barracad highlights an interesting point with regards to the difference between enforced knowledge and learned behaviour.

 

Children, like any animal of the primate order, acquire the vast majority of their early knowledge and behaviour through mimicry of other primates in their social group, most notably their parents. This leads to the obvious question of whether simply practicing your religious belief is in itself an act of behavioural enforcement.

 

Realistically, I don't think even the most ardent atheist would consider that simply following your faith is enforcing it on your children, in most cases. I say most cases, since the distinction is less clear cut when you are talking about religious ritualisation being practiced on children for the spiritual gratification of their parents (be it conceptual, as in the case of baptism, or physical, as in the case of circumcision).

 

Whilst I am alluding to there being a difference between learned behaviour (which ultimately may be reshaped or even rejected by the child), and enforced behaviour (which is more in line with a form of mental conditioning), I'm also using 'forced belief' as a synonym for parents who teach (preach?) their religion to their children by rejecting the validity of other belief systems.

Bookworm posted some interesting comments about this very aspect, when she took a stance - quite correctly in my opinion - of presenting contrary arguments to her child's stated beliefs, regardless of those beliefs.

 

I think stating that parents should never practice their religion around children is both unrealistic and counter-productive, rather, the important thing is to ensure a balanced view is given as much as you're able. Whether that's achieved actively by engaging the child in alternative or contrary viewpoints, or passively by simply not supporting your own belief system by denouncing others, is largely irrelevant; the salient point is that a child should be encouraged to draw their own conclusions, which is much more difficult to do if their parents are hell-bent - if you'll excuse the pun - on ensuring that there's only one choice of belief.

[barracad]

The thing is, if somebody really believes in salvation and damnation... then of course they are going to share that with their children from an early age, as they will want their children to live their lives in what they believe is the 'right' way. They're not going to want to wait until a child is 13, 14, 15, whatever before they share their beliefs with them. You would naturally want to teach your children the 'truth' and the difference between 'right' and 'wrong'.

 

Even if you tried not to 'force' your religion on children then they're still going to be brought up in that environment - it is inevitable that at some point you will be forced to rely on your religious beliefs in some way. Immediately I think of a child asking "Why did Nana/my pet goldfish/etc die? What has happened to them now?" Clearly an Atheist, Christian and Buddhist will all reply in different ways, and I don't think any of them would say "I'll let you decide when you're older"!

 

Again it's not really clear as to when sharing stops and forcing starts. For example, let's look at a Christian couple (for simplicity we'll ignore Anglicans who practice infant baptism etc). They may attend church each week, taking their children with them, encourage their children to get involved with singing worship songs etc, they may even have some kind of a dedication ceremony at church where they declare that they will bring up their child in a Christian setting. At home, they may pray before meals and at other times, may read the Bible to their child, they may teach their children to be generous to the needy and to give a tenth of their income etc. When the child is old enough to decide for themselves, they have the choice of if they want to be a Christian and can choose to get baptised. After all, Christians believe that following a Christian lifestyle and going to church doesn't automatically make someone a Christian, they have to make their own decision... would any of that be 'forcing' religion on anybody?

[barracad]

you would never see him in a church (unless they were giving cash away!)

 

Church: We'll Pay You to Come

[therafalution]

I attended a catholic secondary school in the 80's and religion was a big stick used to beat us with. There was only one way. One incident i remember was when aids was starting to make the news and there was a lot of ignorance about, anyway a lad in my year filled a condom with water and lobbed it at someone else. All the lads were called into the main hall and given one hell of a rollicking from the deputy head who was fearsome, thing is i remember sitting there and thinking there is this major disease out there and they are reacting like this over a condom, they actually told us we shouldn't know what a condom is. That is one reason why i hate religion, there is so much intolerance and hatred, not to mention corruption that i wouldn't want them any where near my kids. i will let my kids find out for themselves their own beliefs, but i want them to see all sides.

[Tezcatlipoca]

I attended a catholic secondary school in the 80's and religion was a big stick used to beat us with. There was only one way.

 

Ah, but as Barracad says, that's justifiable since the parents who sent you there and the people beating you really, really did believe. So they weren't forcing those beliefs on you; you just happened to grow up in an environment where that was considered acceptable.

 

On a slightly more serious note, the point - once again - is not so much where the line is drawn between learned and enforced behaviour, or even that there is necessarily a line to be drawn, but rather that whether or not it is justifiable to enforce belief by the rejection of contrary systems.

 

Of course, at the same time it is equally important not to commit the same oversight and force atheism on the young by rejecting all religious belief systems. Re-reading the thread, I think we're all largely agreed - regardless of our personal belief systems (which I've not asked for for a good reason) - that a balanced, sensible view is the ideal when imparting what you believe to be the normative stance on religion to junior.

[Desperate Daniella]

I have just found this thread.

 

I am a Catholic. I went to a Catholic prep school in the 50s. The worst thing that ever happened was that we had to kneel down with our hands on our heads with our eyes shut for five minutes if we behaved badly. Did that harm us? We never even thought about it.

 

We had a great time at school. Lots of fun and lovely Saints' Days, and parties. This was in the 50s and our school was run by nuns in full habits and full wimples.

 

I know there was appalling abuse by Catholic nuns and priests in many schools/children's homes, but not all Catholic schools were like that.

 

My secondary school, in the 60/70s was again Catholic, and more like St Trinian's. Great fun, and we learned a lot too.

 

I'm really shocked and sad that thereafalution was having such a bad time in the 80s, but not all Catholic schools behave, or have behaved, in the same way, and it's rotten that so many people have had a bad experience.

[Tezcatlipoca]

I'm really shocked and sad that thereafalution was having such a bad time in the 80s, but not all Catholic schools behave, or have behaved, in the same way, and it's rotten that so many people have had a bad experience.

 

Interesting point, and one which neatly highlights an important aspect of the whole question of forcing religion on the young; perception.

 

I think it's very often the case that campaigns such as the Athiest Bus and others are mounted because of adults' perception that religion is perverting the(ir?) young, rather than it necessarily being based on verifiable fact.

 

A good example is the Catholic church in Africa. There is an odd duality here; on the one hand I have an issue with religious mental conditioning, but on the other it is undeniable that the Catholic church has not only made incredible humanitarian strides in rural Africa, but, in many cases - a lot of which I have witnessed personally - they are the only form of social aid and cohesion in some areas, which is a highly commendable thing.

 

As a Catholic, where do you stand on the whole parental-religious question, DD? If you have children of your own do you actively bring them up to follow your religion, or have you stepped back and allowed them to make their own decisions? If you don't have children, same question hypothetically; as a Catholic, where would you stand?