HBOS claimform - 0ld credit Card DEbt

[plshelp!]

Hi All,

 

In need of some help, just been through difficult year, as have many others, sorted my secured debt first which is just about under control.

 

We have a credit card with Halifax, sent a CCA request and they returned two photocopies of generic information no signatures dates etc.

 

Blair Oliver Scott have been in touch a couple of times but as everyone else seems to have experienced, they do not respond to written communication, although they did respond about 3 months late, before we realised about all this, regarding a reduced payment plan saying it had not been adhered to even though it had never been accepted.

 

Halifax recently sent warning of court action followed by blue CC letter.

 

I dont know what to do next, do we defend as they do not have a credit agreement, there seems to be conflicting information at the moment.

 

I would also like to claim charges but this would obviously acknowledge the debt.

 

The outstanding amount is approx 13,000 they state on the court paperwork the agreement was entered in 2006 but we have had the card since 2002. Very confused

 

 

Sorry Gazza if I should start my own thread, need advice quickly !

[GARY68]

Hi plshelp

you would be better copying this post in the halifax forum or legal forum for more help,give some more info and scanning the letters up for the best results,

dont worry everybody will help,

[citizenB]

plsehelp are you saying you have received a County Court Claim form from Northampton ?

 

We need some information in order to assist.

 

Can you please let us know what it says on the Particulars of claim. You will find this on the left side of the form as you are looking at it. It will say something along the lines of the action they are bringing because you are in default of a regulated agreement or similar.

 

We need to know everything in that box.

 

Also we need to know the date of issue of the claim form, you will find this top right hand side under the claim number. This information is required because you will need to keep to a time frame to do certain things.

 

Once you confirm this is a legitimate claim form and not some "lookalike" then we can spring into action on your behalf.

 

Interesting they should get the date of the account opening incorrect..

 

[GARY68]

just wondering if they are just threatening at the moment

 

Hi plshelp

 

have they sent you court papers or threats?

have you disputed the debt or sent any disputes to the amount owed?

can you scan any letters up?

 

wonder if its a case of the visa card changed to mastercard as mine was-without my authority of course.

[plshelp!]

Hi Gary&CitizenB, I have limited internet until tomorrow, hence delay. I will post the letters then but in meantime:

 

It is the paperwork from Northampton County Court its dated the 6th and states it is served five days later and I then need to respond in 14 days, will phone them to confirm.

 

The particulars are:

The Claimant's claim is for £x presently due pursuant to a credit agreement entered into by the parties, full particulars of which have been supplied hitherto.

By an agreement dated xx/xx/xxthe Defendant has an account number xxxxxxxxxxx with the claimant. The Defendant has failed or delayed to adhere to the terms of the Default Notice issued by the Claimant under the terms of the CCA 1974. The balance due as at 0// on said account is £x ".

I did imply the agreement date was incorrect, mistake on my part.

 

I will be back with full info tomorrow.

 

Thanks again

 

Hi,

 

Back online at last, right, I have scanned some of the documents requested, we first requested the CCA back in June, the response was not received until August after being chased by Blair, Oliver and Scott and faxing a copy to them.

 

I have not contacted the court yet as we have until the 25th to respond. There is another case on the forum they have the same dated letters but they have not carried out a CCA request.

 

Any help on what to do next would be much appreciated.

 

CCA.PDF

 

CCS.PDF

Default.PDF

[plshelp!]

Hi,

 

I am in a similar position to HP Mum, same forms and dates, I know how it feels, good luck with the dispute.

 

I have posted details in wrong place and cant work out how to move them to Halifax section. I have done a CCA request and they sent generic forms similar to what others on the forum have received no signatures or dates.

 

I have scanned some of the documents in the thread I have started but its in debt collection. Any help would be good including how to move thread to this forum. I need to respond to Northampton ASAP.

 

Thanks.

[toymaker1]

Please post the date. You have hidden the starting date of your agreement. That is important to know.

The more info you post, the easier for Caggers to advise you.

Also, have they enclosed/attached a copy of the agreement with the claim form?

 

On the face of it, it looks as if you should complete the online response form exactly the same as HPMum. Have a look at the relevant posts, and you will see what to do.

[postggj]

thanks for jumping in toymaker

[3tea]

plshelp,

 

I have had plenty of experience with the Halifax, and around the time your default notice was issued they were fouling up the default notices by terminating the account well before the date they give to rectify the breach.

It may well be that they have done this to you.

 

If they have, this letter will proably be dated within two weeks of the default notice.

 

Do you have a termination letter from them, or perhaps a letter from a debt collection agency demanding repayment of the full balance?

 

If so, it would be good to post it here and I can have a look at the dates.

 

If they have messed up in this regard, then the default will be invalid and easier to defend perhaps than an enforcibility issue, particularly in the current climate.

 

Regards,

 

3tea

[citizenB]

Well for a start the DN is rubbish. dated, 20th February 2009, they give you until the 6th March to remedy. The regulations state 14 clear days to remedy

 

20th was a Friday, so the earliest you could have received it would have been the following Tuesday, 24th February if posted 1st class (2 working days for posting). If sent by 2nd class that would be (4 working days).

 

At best you were left with just 8/9 days to to remedy.

 

Depending on what you want to do, then you must acknowledge service by the 25th at the very latest. I would suggest a couple of days before the due date. Then you will have until the 9th December to submit your defence if you have decided to defend the claim.

[plshelp!]

Hi,

 

ok, the start date is 23/10/1996. They did not send a copy of the agreement with the claim form.

 

We did not receive anything until 24th june 2009, that is a letter from Blair Oliver and scott asking for full payment or for us to contact them, (attached).

 

I am going to acknowledge and defend all of claim, bit concerned with 3 tea comment though !

 

I am write that enforcibility does not work ? or is that scare tactics in play by the press ?

 

Help is much appreciated, I am currently in middle of legal battle that has left me in this mess, but thats another story !

Letter BOS.PDF

[3tea]

plshelp,

 

Don't worry too much about the enforcibility side of it, I meant it's just that it seems a lot of the cases are being stayed at the moment and as a result you are unlikely to resolve your issues quickly.

 

A defective DN is a separate matter, and if yours is duff, then the creditor is pretty much stuffed.

 

I don't know if anyone else would agree, but the fact the DN is faulty is a pretty strong case against the Halifax enforcing this, even without going down the road of whther or not an agreement exists?

 

I asked about the termination notice because if they also terminated within the 14 + 2 day period that the DN should have covered, then this can be construed as 'unlawful recission of contract'.

 

If this is the case, and they have actually terminated too early, then all you may have to pay (if anything) is the arrears due at the point of the default notice.

 

I speak from experience, as the Halifax did this to me.

 

My DN did not not give sufficient time to deal with the breach and pay the amount they wanted, and they also terminated the agreement and demanded the full balance before the date they had given me on the default notice.

 

I did actually get a letter about termination, but I had to read it twice before I realised I had been 'terminated'!

 

Just so I understand, you got nothing from them between the DN and some months later Blair, Oliver & Scott demanding full payment?

 

Regards,

 

3tea

Edited November 20, 2009 by 3tea

[toymaker1]

Hi,

 

ok, the start date is 23/10/1996. They did not send a copy of the agreement with the claim form.

 

 

I am going to acknowledge and defend all of claim,

 

 

Help is much appreciated,

 

It appears as if you are in exactly the same situation, even with the same wording on the Claim form, as HPmum.

 

Look up the posts relating to HPmum's defence to Halifax's Claim, and do exactly the same as HPmum has been advised.

 

If you are still not sure what to do post here again with any questions you have, and provide full info.

 

All the best.

[toymaker1]

It appears as if you are in exactly the same situation, even with the same wording on the Claim form, as HPmum.

 

Look up the posts relating to HPmum's defence to Halifax's Claim, and do exactly the same as HPmum has been advised.

 

If you are still not sure what to do post here again with any questions you have, and provide full info.

 

All the best.

Put this in the Defence Box on the Claim form.

 

I dispute the full amount claimed by the claimant and I do not recognise the Claimant's Claim in any way for the following reasons.

The Claimant states that the claim relates to a credit agreement entered into by the parties, but no copy of the contract or documents alleged to constitute the agreement has been attached or served with the particulars of claim, therefore I have no knowledge of the agreement mentioned by the claimant in the particulars of claim. This is in breach of the requirements of Practice Direction 16 section 7.3. "Where a claim is based upon a written agreement a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached or served with the particulars of claim".

 

Additionally, by not attaching or serving a copy of the alleged agreement the claimant has failed to provide me with sufficient information to deal with the claim. This is in breach of Practice Direction - Protocols section 3.1(a) "not having provided sufficient information to the defendant

[plshelp!]

We filed the defence on line but it did not ask for the reason, we had prepared from the info on HP Mum thread, thanks toymaker1.

 

Do I now enter the paragraph as our defence ?

[plshelp!]

3tea, I have gone back through the paper trail and it seems that the next letter was the one posted from B,O &S a couple of months later. They have been very slow in contacting us, once the barrage of telephone calls stopped.

[toymaker1]

We filed the defence on line but it did not ask for the reason, we had prepared from the info on HP Mum thread, thanks toymaker1.

 

Do I now enter the paragraph as our defence ?

 

Yes. type it into the Box headed "3.Defence".

 

From the information you have posted that seems the best defence.

If Haalifax cannot provide a copy of your agreement they cannot continue tha court action. The law requires that they provide a copy with the Claim and the original document in court.

Halifax will probably provide a copy of your application (which is not the executed agreement.) and what they provide will probably be too small to read - which is illegal.

So until they come up with a true copy they cannot pursue the Claim any further.

The document you posted is clearly not a copy of your original agreement - you can see it is a document relating to Halifax current terms and conditions, and in any case, as you said, is simply a generic form showing what their agreements look a bit like.

 

By the way, I notice you said in your post 4 that your agreement started in 2002, but in post 10 you said it was from 23/10/1996.

[plshelp!]

That was confusion on my part, the card is in my partners name with me as a named card holder, she added me to the card in 2002 but the original agreement is from 1996. Does this make a difference ?

[citizenB]

You say the account was actually opened in 1996 - Yes?

 

You have entered an embarrassed defence - Yes?

 

In which case, the claimant has 28 days to confirm to the court if they want to continue.

 

Have you requested any documents from the solicitor. They mention on the POCs, default notice and the agreement so you can ask for them.

 

You will also require a statement of account which shows how they have made up the amount they are claiming.

 

Send this letter to the solicitors.

 

Dear Sir,

 

Re: (Claimant's name) v (Your name) Case No:

CPR 31.14 Request

 

On (date) I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the (Name) County Court.

 

I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest all of your claim.

 

[Prior to the issue of proceedings I had delivered a request for the production of the agreement mentioned in the Claim Form and on which you rely. That request was ignored][delete if no such request was delivered]

 

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of [each of the following / the] document(s) mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

 

1 the agreement. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.

 

2 the default notice

 

 

3 statements showing how the balance mentioned in the Particulars of Claim is arrived at.

 

[Although your claim is for a sum which is not more than £5,000.00 and will in all likelihood be allocated to the small claims track for determination upon my delivering a defence, at this moment in time I have not delivered my defence and the case has not been allocated to a track. In consequence the provisions of CPR 27(2) are of no effect and you should not seek to avoid compliance with your CPR 31 duties by claiming otherwise]#

 

# delete if claim for a sum exceeding £5,000.00

 

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

 

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party.

 

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

 

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence.

 

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing.

 

Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order.

 

I do hope this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you.

 

yours faithfully

 

 

Read the letter carefully because there are some sections that might need deleting if they dont apply to your case.

 

You need to send the letter above by recorded delivery.

[toymaker1]

That was confusion on my part, the card is in my partners name with me as a named card holder, she added me to the card in 2002 but the original agreement is from 1996. Does this make a difference ?

 

No, I was just noting that you had mentioned two different dates.

The fact that it is actually from 1996 is to your advantage, because Halifax is very unlikely to have a copy of your agreement going back to that date.

[GARY68]

Hi plshelp

 

any updates on this?

[plshelp!]

Hi All,

 

Thanks for the help, I have been offline for a while, Virgin Media now there's another story. Is it just me or has customer service made way for bullying and extortion even by brands you would expect to trust ie. Virgin.

 

Anyway back to Halifax at xmas, they did not respond to a request for copies of paperwork and we have not heard back from the court or them since.What they have done is made it very difficult for my partner to bank with them.

 

We cancelled a loan Direct Debit about 5 times but they kept reinstating it as a Standing Order. This then progressed to them cleaning out the account between xmas and new year, this did spoil New Year for us. All they said 'it was a mistake if you would like to go into branch they may be able to resolve it there for you'. That wont put the money back into our account over new year !

 

We have now stopped banking with them.

 

Thanks Again.

[citizenB]

Plsehelp, they MUST cancel the Direct Debit on your written instruction and if they dont, or your partner has been subjected to charges in respect of any payment being returned then you should contact the Financial Ombudsman.

 

So, nothing from the court ? I imagine that Halifax havent made up their minds whether to continue or not.

 

I would be inclined to check with the court (is it still at Northampton) just to see what the status of the claim is. They are very helpful

[plshelp!]

I have just revisited our file to double check and there was a response from the court back in November acknowledging the defence.

 

It states that the claiment has 28 days after receiving a copy of the defence, after that lapses which it has the claim will be stayed and the Halifax will have to apply for a lifting order. That was dated 25th November definately nothing since.

 

They were taking any amount out of her account that they could, whenever any funds were left of her overdraft, they would take it. Happened three times but then they are reducing the overdraft as well. They can't be exact as to the date when they do this but the trend would be wait until there is not enough funds reduce the overdraft putting her over the limit and freeze the account, returning any other payments and leaving us with nothing.

 

They then had a go because she was not managing her account, even though we cancelled the direct debit and they still take the funds. It just shows, the culture of not just banks but utilities and mobile phone companies they all seem to think they have total control and can act as they please, in a sense the bank charges court case has helped this culture.

[GARY68]

Hi plshelp

 

i wouldnt worry about this card now,let sleeping dogs lie.

 

If it was me i would consider this finished (if it was me) they have screwed up the default and i bet they havent got a agreement thats readable or under a mastercard application, they know your dealing with a consumer website after your defence and expected you to roll over.

they have proved they havent got anything solid on you as they have let the case lapse in northampton bulk.

even as yours is such a large amount,this could still not make a difference.

if they have cancelled the agreement in june i cant see how they can reinstate it and i would personally wait to hear if they start sending the letters in from the debt collection agencys now and see if they start hounding you that way.

 

I got my default removed by pointing out their defective default-but saved this until the very end, so dont point this out to them yet.

if it was me i wouldnt nudge them on this,

 

but do check out the ppi and claim that back if any....if they proceed with any action,

you must have a tidy sum if there is any ppi.