Morgan Stanley/Cabot Question

[spartathisis]

I notice also that the discussion on securitisation appears to have gone, in all likelyhood few OC's actually owned the debt when they sold it to the likes of Cabot.

 

Is your card listed here? http://www.securitization.net/pdf/credit_card_index_Q3_Dec03.pdf

 

MS, MBNA, RBS, EGG, B Card abd Capital One all listed. There is a thread on CAG http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mortgages-secured-loans/170607-spml-london-mortgage-company-92.html#post2516403 on how the fringe mortgage lenders only lend money so as to securitise the debt and then make it difficult for debtors so they then either default or find another mortgage elsewhere. Beleive it or not Cabot arent probably the worst out there no matter what we think.

[veryweary]

Have they, Cabot, sent a termination letter? If they havent then they can issue DN's as many times as they like until they get it right:( This also means they can add the interst on at any time, but not above what was being charged by the OC at the time of assignment.

 

They wont add interest or charges to the DN as they will know they could stuff themselves if the charges are found to be unlawful.l

 

Yes Cabot have kindly issued a seperate termination letter on which the sum is the same as quoted on the Default Notice. So can OH assume they can't come back with any interest charges?

 

Our CRA is stuffed so not that bothered.Have done without credit for nearly 6 years now and would never borrow a penny again. I might ask Cabot to correct their delinquent record added in 2008, which names it as a joint account and I have nothing to do with it.

 

Just find it odd that having several cc accounts which went pear shaped in 2004, every other creditor has issued a default notice before passing to a debt collector except for MBNA .And when Link issued one 2 years later it was jointly named as being issued from MBNA and LInk..

 

By selling to Cabot without issuing a default notice Morgan Stanley never gave OH the chance to remedy the arrears on the account. So it still doesn't seem right to me.

 

But as I don't have 1/10th of the knowledge of the posters who have kindly commented on this thread, I accept I am wrong in my thinking.

 

Cabot have stopped phoning and gone quiet so will wait to see what happens next.

 

Thanks for all the help:)

[angry cat]

I must confess, I agree with Rhia in that, some of the DN's issued by DCA's are simply frighteners!

 

Link Financial did a mass mailing of DN's last year, irrespective of anyones circumstances; methinks a ploy to get the money rolling in.

 

Agree with sparthisis re; securitization...!

[spartathisis]

so they have added interest after the termination letter? if the "contract" has been terminated how can they add something later? methinks they have shot themselves, hopefully in the temple.

 

Sit back let them do the work and see what they come up with, though never ignore any letters they send as it wouldnt look good in court.

 

AC, I raised secuiritisation with a DCA who were chasing on the back of a GM Card debt bought from HFC with app form only. Their solicitors stated the account had not been securitised and so it had no relevance, when asked to prove it they said they would not be able to! After looking into it I now realise that everything financial, and beyond, is securitised and they wonder why the world is in the state it is;)

 

Securitisation explained and why we should hope it begins again!!!!

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/gfsr/2009/02/pdf/chap2.pdf

Edited October 21, 2009 by spartathisis
missed link out

[angry cat]

by spartathisis:

AC, I raised secuiritisation with a DCA who were chasing on the back of a GM Card debt bought from HFC with app form only. Their solicitors stated the account had not been securitised and so it had no relevance, when asked to prove it they said they would not be able to!"

 

I'll take that as a yes then!

 

AC

[spartathisis]

Just received latest letter from Cabot, "We have recently purchased your debt from MBNA" theres me thinking they bought it 10yrs ago:eek:. It has gone up £100 since last letter 10 days ago, can anyone point me in the direction of what to look for as far as unfair interest etc?

[Fester Tester]

Check what it says in the original T&Cs. If they allow for tranfer of all rights, then check that the interest currently being charged does not exceed that of the original agreement.

 

Bearing in mind that Cabot usually charge 12%. No matter what the original rate was. Perhaps they use a crystal ball to determin that rate, because they I am sure and certain they never see sight of the original agreememnt before applying that rate.

[angry cat]

Just received latest letter from Cabot, "We have recently purchased your debt from MBNA" theres me thinking they bought it 10yrs ago:eek:. It has gone up £100 since last letter 10 days ago, can anyone point me in the direction of what to look for as far as unfair interest etc?

 

Consumer Credit Act 2006 - BIS

 

http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/consumers/consumer-finance/credit_regulation/credit-act-2006/index.html#Post-ContractInformation

[Pinky69]

This is what I wrote to Cabot in exactly the same circumstances:

 

Complaint against Cabot Financial for pursuing an alleged account in dispute which has no agreement and was unlawfully rescinded by Morgan Stanley Dean Witter at the point of sale to Cabot Financial.

 

I am in receipt of a letter in which Cabot state that that they have “recently” bought an account I held with Morgan Stanley Dean Witter. That is a lie – the alleged account wasn’t bought “recently.” I asked Cabot for a copy of the credit agreement pertaining to this alleged account and in a reply dated 21 April 2008 Cabot sent an application form and Terms and Conditions that do not pertain to the application form. If Cabot has no record of this correspondence then they are in breach of the Money Laundering Regulations for not keeping records up to date – I have a copy of everything. Cabot are now so desperate for revenue they are pursuing anything and completely disregarding consumer law to do so. No Notices of Assignment were every received from Cabot or MSDW and Cabot needn’t bother sending any now as all Cabot do is make them up. In the event of litigation I will be putting Cabot to strict proof of postage that the originals were ever sent.

 

The alleged account was unlawfully rescinded by Morgan Stanley Dean Witter at the point of sale to Cabot because it was terminated by them at the point of sale without prior issue of a Default Notice in breach of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 S 87 (1). The alleged account therefore no longer existed at the time of purchase by Cabot, the kind of dross Cabot specialise in buying. It is no wonder they have suffered a huge loss in the last financial year given their severely impaired business model.

 

All clauses in the alleged agreement pertaining to the processing of my personal data were rescinded with the unlawful rescission of the alleged agreement AND CABOT MUST CEASE PROCESSING MY PERSONAL DATA WITH IMMEDIATE AFFECT. In pursuing an unlawfully rescinded account Cabot are in serious breach of the Data Protection Act 1998 because they have no lawful authority to be in possession of or process my personal data.

 

I trust this settles the matter.

[angry cat]

Ah Yes, Cabot and the MSDW LEMONS!

 

Nice one Pinky:)

 

AC

[veryweary]

The alleged account was unlawfully rescinded by Morgan Stanley Dean Witter at the point of sale to Cabot because it was terminated by them at the point of sale without prior issue of a Default Notice in breach of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 S 87 (1). The alleged account therefore no longer existed at the time of purchase by Cabotr.

 

Thanks Pinky, this is the same as the lawyer said when asked about the validity of this Default Notice.So I take it that this Cabot Default Notice is invalid and irrelevant.

 

The microfiche copy of the application form copy they sent OH is also only 4 x4 inches in size, incredible as that may seem, therefore totally illegible and I believe from other posts Morgan Stanley destroyed the original paperwork..

 

Will keep hold of your excellent letter later for when Cabot eventually start threatening again or issue court papers.

 

thanks

v. weary

[Pinky69]

They cannot issue another DN - there is no account to issue one on - it was rescinded at the point of sale. That puts you back in the position you were in before there was any agreement. MSDW rescinded it by selling it without issuing a DN.

[spartathisis]

Thanks for the link AC

 

Cabot have not to date supplied a copy of the MBNA DN, I would imagine they cant get hold of it. Oh hang on, I have the original and its defective;), 4 days to remedy and no termination notice before sold to cabot.

 

Dont you just love badly run businesses?

[angry cat]

Thanks for the link AC

 

Cabot have not to date supplied a copy of the MBNA DN, I would imagine they cant get hold of it. Oh hang on, I have the original and its defective;), 4 days to remedy and no termination notice before sold to cabot.

 

Dont you just love badly run businesses?

 

MBNA don't keep copies of DN's;

all that they will be able to provide to you, is a template.

 

Excellent, to hear that you have the original; hopefully the envelope too.

[spartathisis]

unfortunately not , it was over 10yrs ago so I dont think im doing that badly keeping everything else.

[spartathisis]

well cabot now saying they will take of the interest (£1800 now!) if I start paying them!!! Their underwriters have cleared it? "Wotcha talkin about Kenneth".

 

They talk about the app form stating credit agreement at the top showing it is a CCA, ohh dear, and they have a legal duty to report to the CRA's. If I dont start paying towards a lawful debt they bought then they will escalate to collections, looks like im going to court for the first time .

 

I want my mummy, or big brovver!

[angry cat]

:

 

I want my mummy, or big brovver!"

 

You have CAG!

 

AC

X

[Pinky69]

You can sue them for damages for unlawful default entries because all clauses in the agreement relating to your alleged permission for them to process your data were rescinded at the time of the unlawful rescission. See my thread on Invalid Default Notices.

[spartathisis]

Cheers pinky, actually got the thread open.

 

AC I hope to goodness you are female, "x" Thanks for the support .

 

Anyone know their "Underwriters" position in this? I assume it is to cover bad debt, but why would they contact them to remove the interest?

[veryweary]

They cannot issue another DN - there is no account to issue one on - it was rescinded at the point of sale. That puts you back in the position you were in before there was any agreement. MSDW rescinded it by selling it without issuing a DN.

 

Hello again Pinky69. Can you explain or point me in the direction of an explanation of why any alleged agreement was rescinded at point of sale when Morgan Stanley sold to Cabot without issuing a Default Notice.

 

Cabot have started calling here again 2 or 3 times a day. It will only be a matter of time before they run out of phone numbers to call from and escalate this, and would like to to understand better what this means before OH is forced to write them another letter.

 

 

Thanks VW

[Pinky69]

It is in S87(1) of the CCA 1974. They cannot terminate an agreement without issuing a DN. Termination can be by informing you in a Termination Notice or by act - they terminated the agreement when they sold it on. The consequences of that are spelled out in legal precedent:

 

Failure of a default notice to be accurate not only invalidates the default notice (Woodchester Lease Management Services Ltd v Swain and Co - [2001] GCCR 2255) but is a unlawful rescission of contract which would not only prevent the court enforcing any alleged debt, but gives rise to a counter claim for damages Kpohraror v Woolwich Building Society [1996] 4 All ER 119

 

 

For "Failure of a DN to be accurate", read "Failure to issue a DN at all." You have them by the short and curlies. Don't speak to Cabot on the phone - ever -everything in writing - and I send everything to their complaints department or they don't read it. Don't worry about Cabot. If they had a brain they would be dangerous.

[stitchedup]

It is in S87(1) of the CCA 1974. They cannot terminate an agreement without issuing a DN. Termination can be by informing you in a Termination Notice or by act - they terminated the agreement when they sold it on. The consequences of that are spelled out in legal precedent:

 

Failure of a default notice to be accurate not only invalidates the default notice (Woodchester Lease Management Services Ltd v Swain and Co - [2001] GCCR 2255) but is a unlawful rescission of contract which would not only prevent the court enforcing any alleged debt, but gives rise to a counter claim for damages Kpohraror v Woolwich Building Society [1996] 4 All ER 119

 

 

For "Failure of a DN to be accurate", read "Failure to issue a DN at all." You have them by the short and curlies. Don't speak to Cabot on the phone - ever -everything in writing - and I send everything to their complaints department or they don't read it. Don't worry about Cabot. If they had a brain they would be dangerous.

 

I'll find out what they have in their locker at the end of the month. Judge has ordered that Original documents be produced in court, this could prove very very interesting. Seems Cabot are throwing money at their portfolio's hoping to gain judgment by default, guess its purely a numbers game.

[patrickq1]

It is in S87(1) of the CCA 1974. They cannot terminate an agreement without issuing a DN. Termination can be by informing you in a Termination Notice or by act - they terminated the agreement when they sold it on. The consequences of that are spelled out in legal precedent:

 

Failure of a default notice to be accurate not only invalidates the default notice (Woodchester Lease Management Services Ltd v Swain and Co - [2001] GCCR 2255) but is a unlawful rescission of contract which would not only prevent the court enforcing any alleged debt/AGGREEMENT, but gives rise to a counter claim for damages Kpohraror v Woolwich Building Society [1996] 4 All ER 119

 

 

For "Failure of a DN to be accurate", read "Failure to issue a DN at all." You have them by the short and curlies. Don't speak to Cabot on the phone - ever -everything in writing - and I send everything to their complaints department or they don't read it. Don't worry about Cabot. If they had a brain they would be dangerous.

would that mean aggreement pinky ? just a thought

[Pinky69]

Yes - it is the agreement which has been rescinded.

[veryweary]

Thanks so very much for your help. Will go and read further on the case you mentioned. Cabot are so slippery to deal with, but your excellent explanation solves a worrying issue for us..

 

And similiar to your thread Goldfish redirected a number of payments made by OH to them through a DMP with CCCS (before we stopped the CCCS plan) to Cabot . OH had no knowledge of this at the time.

 

Thanks again , your help is very much appreciated by us and I'm sure by all the other people on the forum trying to deal with Cabot.