Urgent - Bailiff for business rates

[mr_spine]

I own a small recording studio in a business park (for which I have a lease). It is not a business so I didnt pay business rates for 2009, which I now know is wrong! I do have to pay, but with a 50% reduction.

 

2 weeks ago I got suspicious that my mail is being mixed up with other peoples mail. The postman does not directly put post into my pigeon hole. It is down to me and surrounding studio tenants to pick the mail up and put in the correct pigeon hole. I found a letter in someones huge pile of letters, from brent council magistrate court for a court hearing (which I of course missed). I immediately wrote a letter and small busines relief form and sent it to brent council, requesting that they send me the new bill so I can pay immediatly. No response so far, but they bailiff has now left a letter threatening to force entry and sieze goods (im only there part time asi work full time elsewhere). I rang him and he arranged to come on monday and he claims he will ring brent council to hurry my new bill.

 

Now, what are my rights? I dont trust him. He surely wants to just make sure he gets his worth out of the mess (which is VERY valuable and vintage music equipment!). Do I have to let him in? His letter had some company name on it. Can he force entry? I want to pay direct to brent council so ill go there monday morning and INSIST. TO brent council id have to pay roughly £600, to the bailiff...£1800!!!!!!

 

Added: Equita is the bailiff company. I really need to get this sorted without him taking my equipment, or I'll miss my own record label launch! I just rang him again and hes refusing to tell me how much he is expecting to collect, and that i should wait until monday.

Edited October 10, 2009 by mr_spine

[marie6666red]

someone with more knowledge will come along but i do know that they cannot force entry. dont have any windows etc. open. if you dont allow them access they cant enter. dont even open the door. they are after their own fees....if they cant collect from you all they can do is hand it back to the council. make sure you phone the council first thing. all the charges they add on for each visit is just to line their own pockets.

[2ltr16valve]

someone with more knowledge will come along but i do know that they cannot force entry. dont have any windows etc. open. if you dont allow them access they cant enter. dont even open the door. they are after their own fees....if they cant collect from you all they can do is hand it back to the council. make sure you phone the council first thing. all the charges they add on for each visit is just to line their own pockets.

 

 

not 100% but pretty sure this was discussed in another thread, being a business property they can force entry as long as they secure with equivalent or better.

 

also, the amount seems rather wrong... what are the charges applied etc ?

 

Deffo try deal with the council, and if you did not receive the summons go to the court and ask for the judgement to be set aside. Siteing that you did not receive the original paperwork in time for the hearing.

[marie6666red]

also read thread equita...caught red handed it may enlighten you as to who you are dealing with.

[mr_spine]

The charges i quoted were the full business rates and charges incurred for missing the court hearing. I have no idea of the amount the bailiff wants, he refused to tell me until monday morning. He seems very very eager to not talk about it until he is in the property, which is making me panic. If they can force entry then I might be in trouble. I've read other posts and theres no way Im handing money to him. So its all on the council to find my small business application and take full payment of it early on monday morning. I'll also ring the courts explaining to them that I had not received the letter until well after the court date. From what I understand, he will be able to charge for 2 visits. Hopefully, I can avoid him completey.

 

Im holding out for the 50% reduction on rates (to which i am definatly entitled). Otherwise I simply havent got the money to pay full rates. Have £800 in cash right beside me! very frustrating. My mistake was informing Brent council that I had not received the letter, instead of the court.

Edited October 10, 2009 by mr_spine

[mr_spine]

Ive done more reading but still can not find a 100% answer to 'can they force entry?'

 

Also, on another post they had a link to a page where it said the following:

 

If you miss an installment for business rates you will be served with a reminder notice asking for the installment to be paid in 7 days. If after a further 7 days you have still not paid or made an arrangement, the entire balance will become due and the local authority will ask the magistrates’ court for a liability order for the full amount they say you owe plus court costs. The liability order says that you are due to pay your business rates and have not paid.

 

The court must issue the liability order unless:

 

• the council has not gone through the proper procedures;
  
• you have paid the amount owed;
  
• the amount has been incorrectly calculated;
  
• the name on the summons is wrong.
  

I can confirm the name is a bit wrong. My surname is correct but they have me down as 'Mr C'. I am in fact Mr K. Seems stupid, but could that get the bailiff off my back so I can pay the council?? And by law, how can they take any equipment if it would disrupt my business operations? Apart from sofa, everything is vital to the studio...

[ploddertom]

Collection of Business Rates or more properly Non-Domestic Rates is essentially the same as Council Tax.

 

The charges the bailiff can make are the same - £24-50 1st Visit & £18-00 2nd Visit. He cannot just break in unless he has already gained entry peacefully previous. For most businesses a Bailiff can usually just walk straight in off the street eg shops, pubs etc. You do not have to let him in and I don't doubt he wants to gain entry in order to make a levy on your goods inside - if this happens then it is a different ball game.

 

If you can before he gets to you find out from the Council the amount on the Liability Order and the actual amount still outstanding. If they have reissued the rates bill then they should be calling the Bailiff off and you may have an opportunity to then pay them. If they say they cannot do this then you can still pay them direct by using their online payment facility, may well put the Bailiffs nose out of joint.

 

If he does attend then the chances are he will levy on a vehicle he spots outside, does not even have to be yours as he will see this as a lever to extract cash from you, however he should check first.

 

The name being slightly wrong will probably not affect anything as on the basis of probabilities he has found the correct person.

 

Best solution is to deny him any entry regardless of what story he spins you, get on to the Council and sort out with them.

 

PT

[seanamarts]

Go to the council first thing monday morning and pay what you think you owe Rates @ 50% make sure you get a receipt the text not call the bailiff saying that the bill has now been paid in full and he can check that with the council, if he wished to waste his time to come and check that you have a receipt to prove you have paid then more fool him because he wont get paid for it as he can only charge you for two visits, better still you can pay the bill online and print off the receipt yourself. He cannot force entry to your property and he cannot just take what he likes either he has to gain a peaceful entry to the property and levy on goods first before taking anything. you cannot be arrested or taken to prison .. sounds like to me he is just trying it on. So if you cannot pay online then get to the council first thing on monday and get this paid, If the have already told you you are entitled to a reduction then the bailiff cannot pursue you for the rest. But you need to get this in writing usually the council will put on hold with the bailiff whilst they are looking into it

[mr_spine]

The council wont respond. In fact they just sent me straight through to the bailiff over the phone. The bailiff wants £600 in equita charges alone!!!!!!!!! All hes done so far is made one visit and left a letter.

[seanamarts]

He cannot charge you £600 in charges this is totally illegal. If he has just made 1 visit then all you owe in charges are £24.50 . You need to write to the council explaining what they are trying to charge you, and also write to the bailiff company asking for a break down of their charges. When writing to the council tell them they are responsible for the bailiff actions, tell them you will place a complaint with the Local Government Ombudsman if they do not investigate this fully. In the mean time DO NOT let this bailiff in the property.

[pink_eeyore]

They CANNOT force entry for business rates so stop worrying about that.

 

Just make sure all windows and doors are closed and locked and get on at the council

[mr_spine]

I just paid via the internet. The council keep fobbing me off, not sure who I can speak to. Bailiff is on his way down. Im happy to argue with him. But how do I get him off my back? His tone has changed from ffriendly to firm and p'd off. 'If thats how you want to play it, then fair enough' is what he just said to me. He called this a recovery/enforcement fee.

[seanamarts]

I just paid via the internet. The council keep fobbing me off, not sure who I can speak to. Bailiff is on his way down. Im happy to argue with him. But how do I get him off my back? His tone has changed from ffriendly to firm and p'd off. 'If thats how you want to play it, then fair enough' is what he just said to me. He called this a recovery/enforcement fee.

Mr Spine you dont have to talk with him at all get writing some letters you often only talk to the lower staff when dealin with the bailiff matters at the council writing a letter always gets to the right person especially if worded correctly Tis good yo have paid.. print out a receipt and send it to the bailiff company or better still email them a copy of the receipt and tell them to call off their dog.. The bailiff will be most p**ssed that you have already paid.. as for his charges he will now have to take you to a small claims court to get them as his charges will not be on the liability order and he has to prove the charges are lawful which we all know they are not and a court will see that too. I doubt very much that he will take that route

[mr_spine]

Update: I am shocked and disgusted with the law and my local council (Brent). They sent me on a very annoying merry-go-round of phonecalls, most of the time they transferred me straight to the bailiffs mobile. This is after I stated that he is defrauding me according to various legal acts and regulations. Noone was interested! I asked one lady 'so if he added bailiff charges of £8000 for one visit in which he left a letter for a £1000 fine, you couldnt comment or do anything about it?'. She replied with 'thats correct sir'. I paid the council everything I owe them and he is still claiming £600 for one visit (for which he left a letter). I sent a text to him telling him ive paid and requesting a breakdown of what Im paying £600 for, no answer given apart from an idle threat.

 

I went to the council in person (to two different buildings) and not a single person could help me with this blatent fraud. They gave me a number to call, who again, put me through to the bailiff! The police told me (at the police station) that its up to bailiffs what they charge and that they could do nothing. So when the council or police want to enforce any regulation, law, act youre screwed. If you approach THEM with a case of fraud, theyll throw you to the wolves. Amazing.

 

Theres no sign of the bailiff at the studio, im back home now. Interestingly two neighbouring studios have had the same problem with this exact same person from Equita (Im tempted to name him on the forum). Except they paid him! £400 and £700 in his own costs for one visit. I now want to file a complaint with brent, name members of their staff for ASSISTING with the defrauding of a member of the public.

 

Is it better to write a letter or a email? To both equita and Brent council. I'm stunned. Sorry for the the long winded post. I've lost a days work because of all this. Best way to avoid and fix this mess? Be organised and pay your bills And thanks to this site, Ive saved alot of money.

[ploddertom]

Have a look at what Happy Contrails letters say and use for your own good.

 

dustbin v Equita Bailiffs. Urgent Help Needed

 

PT

[mr_spine]

What bailiffs can and can't do

 

If County Court bailiffs come to your home, you don't have to let them in.

They can't force their way in on their first visit, but they can enter through an open window, or an unlocked door. Forced entry includes pushing past you once you have opened the door to them or leaving their foot in the door to prevent you closing it. Such action would make the whole process illegal.

Bailiffs trying to recover money you owe to HMRC are allowed to break into your home, providing they have a magistrates' warrant.

Bailiffs recovering unpaid magistrates' court fines, however, do have the power to force entry.

 

 

This is from Bailiffs and debt collectors : Directgov - Money, tax and benefits

 

 

According to them, they can force entry when enforcing a magistrate court fine, is that true?

[seanamarts]

yes this is true any thing criminal they can force entry anything civil they cannot, Council tax PCN's etc are classed as civil,

[tomtubby]

Update: I am shocked and disgusted with the law and my local council (Brent). They sent me on a very annoying merry-go-round of phonecalls, most of the time they transferred me straight to the bailiffs mobile. This is after I stated that he is defrauding me according to various legal acts and regulations. Noone was interested! I asked one lady 'so if he added bailiff charges of £8000 for one visit in which he left a letter for a £1000 fine, you couldnt comment or do anything about it?'. She replied with 'thats correct sir'. I paid the council everything I owe them and he is still claiming £600 for one visit (for which he left a letter). I sent a text to him telling him ive paid and requesting a breakdown of what Im paying £600 for, no answer given apart from an idle threat.

 

I went to the council in person (to two different buildings) and not a single person could help me with this blatent fraud. They gave me a number to call, who again, put me through to the bailiff! The police told me (at the police station) that its up to bailiffs what they charge and that they could do nothing. So when the council or police want to enforce any regulation, law, act youre screwed. If you approach THEM with a case of fraud, theyll throw you to the wolves. Amazing.

 

Theres no sign of the bailiff at the studio, im back home now. Interestingly two neighbouring studios have had the same problem with this exact same person from Equita (Im tempted to name him on the forum). Except they paid him! £400 and £700 in his own costs for one visit. I now want to file a complaint with brent, name members of their staff for ASSISTING with the defrauding of a member of the public.

 

Is it better to write a letter or a email? To both equita and Brent council. I'm stunned. Sorry for the the long winded post. I've lost a days work because of all this. Best way to avoid and fix this mess? Be organised and pay your bills And thanks to this site, Ive saved alot of money.

 

 

I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news but here goes:....

 

With council tax the bailiff is entitled to his fees FIRST. How this works is follows:

 

Lets assume that the debt passed to the bailiff by the local authority is £300.

 

If the bailiff visits the property and is UNABLE to levy upon goods then he can charge £24.50 for "attending to levy" (where no levy was made).

 

If you then pay £300 direct to the council, this does NOT discharge the Liability Order. This is because the local authority are OBLIGED to pass £24.50 to the bailiff company to cover their fees.

 

This means that the Liability Order has NOT been paid in full as there is a balance due of £24.50 and the bailiff can....and WILL continue enforcement. This is just one of the dangers of paying the local authority direct.

 

For Equita to have applied charges of £600 the bailiff MUST have levied upon SIGNIFICANT goods....and if so.....he must by law provide a Notice of Seizure of Goods & Inventory (Form 7). Was any such form provided?

 

In addition, it would appear that the bailiff may well have applied an "attending to remove fee". HOWEVER, there is case law that provides that this fee CANNOT be applied UNLESS a bailiff has PREVIOUSLY levied upon goods.

 

It is important to be aware that a bailiff is merely an AGENT of the local authority and as such, the council are "wholly responsible" for the charges applied by their bailiffs. I would suggest that you contact the council asap as they will be able to access your account and advise you of what fees have been applied....by their agents.....and WHY !!

[mr_spine]

He visited my business unit when I wasnt there. He simply left a letter stating he had attended with the intention of removing goods, 'I will return and remove goods even in your absense'. There was no 'Notice of Seizure of Goods & Inventory' form. This is the first and only visit he has made, there is no levy, he has not entered my property and I havent even met him face to face. The amount I owe was not put on the letter he left for me.

 

Im happy to pay him his £24 visit fee but so far he's only asked for the 'Enforcement Costs' of £600. The council have fobbed me off all day. Im sending out letters, and now arranged a meeting with my local M.P.

 

Just to make clear: £900 paid to council (full amount) and £600 to bailiff (unpaid)

Edited October 12, 2009 by mr_spine

[tomtubby]

He visited my business unit when I wasnt there. He simply left a letter stating he had attended with the intention of removing goods, 'I will return and remove goods even in your absense'. There was no 'Notice of Seizure of Goods & Inventory' form. This is the first and only visit he has made, there is no levy, he has not entered my property and I havent even met him face to face. The amount I owe was not put on the letter he left for me.

 

Im happy to pay him his £24 visit fee but so far he's only asked for the 'Enforcement Costs' of £600. The council have fobbed me off all day. Im sending out letters, and now arranged a meeting with my local M.P.

 

From what you have said the fees are WRONG !!

 

 

I have sent you a pm.

[cameraboy]

Makes interesting reading about these fraudulent fees. Mr Spine I can appreciate your frustration - trying to run a business at the same time as dealing with this sort of s***e is simply not on.

 

Iam in the process - and nearly there of getting the Police to arrest and charge a bailiff that blatantly overcharged me on fees of £1500.00 for 1 visit!

 

Its no good just reporting it to the Police - I tried that first, and they gave me the usual - 'bailiff can charge what he wants - we know its wrong but there's no real law governing this. That is until 2012 when new laws on bailiff work are due to come into force.

 

This however is the worst statement the Police could make to me as it just made me more determined to get these **** off the streets.

 

Mr Spine try reading this (link below) and then politely tell the Police to get on with what they are paid for.

 

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/Acts/acts2006/pdf/ukpga_20060035_en.pdf

 

PS Commiting an act of Fraud is arrestable

[Guest Happy Contrails]

Its no good just reporting it to the Police - I tried that first, and they gave me the usual - 'bailiff can charge what he wants - we know its wrong but there's no real law governing this.

 

Communicate in writing and you cant go wrong. If the police fob you off with excuses then the law says concealing a crime under a pretence it is a civil matter is an arrestable offence, its called Perverting the Course of Justice and you should be contacting the Parliamentary Ombudsman asking why the police officer isnt charged under Section 4 of the Criminal Law Act 1967. The law is not discretionary, so make lots of noise but in durable communicable form only - otherwise police start being vexatious and threaten you with arrest etc.

 

The Chief Constable

Name of Police Authority

Address 1

Address 2

Address 3

Postcode

 

DATE

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: Reporting a crime committed under the Fraud Act 2006

 

I enclose a document given to me by a man saying he is a bailiff firm [and threatened to commit breaking and entering and take property unless I pay him £AMOUNT]. He charged fees £AMOUNT when the law prescribes a fee of £24.50.

 

I appreciate the police have a propensity to dismiss bailiff crime to be a civil matter, but the official legal position is the bailiff commits an arrestable offence under the 2006 Fraud Act. Lord Lucas at the House of Lords on 20 April 2007 when he asked HM Government whether it would be right for the police to claim that such an action is a civil and not a criminal matter. The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal) replied with, inter-alia (quote) A bailiff or any other person who dishonestly charges for work that has not been done will be committing an offence under the Fraud Act 2006 (unquote).

 

Section 1 means by which this offence can be committed is set out in Section 2, on fraud by false representation. This section applies where a person dishonestly makes a false representation and intends, by making the representation, to make a gain for himself or another, or cause a loss to another, or expose another to a risk of loss. It is also possible that, where a bailiff repeatedly charges for work that has not been done, this conduct will amount to fraudulent trading either under Section 9 of the 2006 Act or under the provisions on fraudulent trading in company legislation.

 

The law can provide reasonable costs in respect of bailiffs transporting goods in a van (attending to remove fee) however no goods have been levied and no document has been signed by me. District Judge Advent on the 9th & 24th September 2008 presiding over Case 8CL51015 Anthony Culligan (Claimant) v 1. Jason Simkin & 2. Marstons (Defendants). The court ruled that (quote) because the bailiff produces no evidence as to how the charge had been arrived then he unable to show that it is reasonable (unquote).

 

Any offence committed under the 2006 Fraud Act is an arrestable offence under Section 24 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. Please assign a crime reference number and I request the crime is investigated professionally and objectively and I am happy to help you in your enquiries and stand as a prosecution witness at trial.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

 

 

YOUR NAME

Enc: copy of bailiff document giving contact details

[Guest Happy Contrails]

That is until 2012 when new laws on bailiff work are due to come into force.

 

What new laws?

[cameraboy]

I have had a few conversations with various people at the MOJ, and they commented that new enforcement/bailiff laws will come into force in 2012.

They said that it will give proper clarity to what can and can't be charged/what an enforcement officer can /can't do. At the same time I said that I hoped the Police will be updated and will be properly informed to which the reply was 'we would expect so'

 

It looks like the the SIA will become the bailiffs regulators - don't they regulate door staff too? Oh dear.

 

Click the link

Tighter regulations for bailiffs announced - Ministry of Justice

[cameraboy]

maybe the link should go up as a sticky just so that folk know there may be light at the end of the tunnel...