Bailiffs have applied to court for warrant

[Tricky Dickie]

This dispute applies to a utilities bill and the bailiffs have applied for a court warrant of entry.

I want to know exactly what information they possess about the debt they claim is owed by me to decide how to handle it.

Does anyone know if I can make a request under the civil proceedures rules as I would if this was a consumer credit issue or is there some other means of making them produce all the information in their posession which they intend to rely on in any action?

[debt4get]

if the bailiffs involved then the case must have already have gone to court and judgement obtained, I think if you look in the bailiff section this should answer some of your question

[Tricky Dickie]

if the bailiffs involved then the case must have already have gone to court and judgement obtained, I think if you look in the bailiff section this should answer some of your question

 

I will take a look in the bailiff section however they have applied for a warrant of entry not a warrant of execution,no judgement has been obtained.

I just wanted to know if the civil proceedures rules could be used to force them to produce all documents they have in the case so I could decide how to defend and if not what other options I have.

[harrassed senior]

A Warrant of Entry would be for? To disconnect the supply? Assuming this would be an unpaid Account? Probably all the information they would require is the information of an unpaid account?

[GamekeeperToPoacher]

if the bailiffs involved then the case must have already have gone to court and judgement obtained, I think if you look in the bailiff section this should answer some of your question

 

Sorry this is incorrect!

 

The utility company will have applied for a warrant of entry either for debt or to carry out a statutory read.

The information the should have is the address and meter details.

The warrant is for the right to enter the property whether occupied or not using force if necessary. Please do not worry they DO NOT kick doors in.

 

There are other threads in The utilities section

 

Regards

 

GK

[zazen.warrior]

Best to stick to one thread.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/utilities-gas-electricity-water/213287-scottish-power-have-applied.html

[Tricky Dickie]

Sorry this is incorrect!

 

The utility company will have applied for a warrant of entry either for debt or to carry out a statutory read.

The information the should have is the address and meter details.

The warrant is for the right to enter the property whether occupied or not using force if necessary. Please do not worry they DO NOT kick doors in.

 

There are other threads in The utilities section

 

Regards

 

GK

 

I understand about the warrant of entry however the real point is that I wish to dispute the amount they say I owe and I want to know what I can do to get the bailiff to reveal all the information they have so I can use all there info to dispute the amount they allege is owing

[PGH7447]

well what does the utility company say you owe an what does the bailiff say?

[zazen.warrior]

On your parallel thread in the utility forum; you state a tenant is liable for this overdue amount, in which case all you need do is produce evidence of the start and end date of their tenancy. That is to say a tenancy agreement which states they are responsible for paying the utility bills.

 

If you cannot produce a TA at all then I am afraid as the owner of the property you are liable to pay. Also whenever the property lies empty you are liable for any usage during say repair work or maintenance visits.

 

As H S stated all they need to demonstrate to the court is an outstanding balance.

Edited August 10, 2009 by zazen.warrior

[Tricky Dickie]

On your parallel thread in the utility forum; you state a tenant is liable for this overdue amount, in which case all you need do is produce evidence of the start and end date of their tenancy. That is to say a tenancy agreement which states they are responsible for paying the utility bills.

 

If you cannot produce a TA at all then I am afraid as the owner of the property you are liable to pay. Also whenever the property lies empty you are liable for any usage during say repair work or maintenance visits.

 

As H S stated all they need to demonstrate to the court is an outstanding balance.

 

The reason I have come to this forum rather than the utilities is that I have been informed of another case where a TA was not accepted as proof by a utility company that the property owner was not responsible for the debt and any way just at this moment I can not find the original TA-who keeps a 6 month tenancy agreement for 5 years,once it has expired and you have issued a new one its no good to you anyway .

Just leaving aside the warrant of entry issue and dealin with the question of who should pay the bill I know that if I was in a dispute which was likely to lead to legal action in a consumer credit issue I could put in a request under the civil proceedures rules in order to be able to see all the documentation that the lender has in his possession.

The burden of proof in such a case is clearly with the lender to prove they are owed the money therefore the validity of their case rests entirely upon the documents they are able to produce.

Does this apply to utilities disputes,if not why not and is there some similar process which enables a person to have transparency as to why and how a company has arrived at the conclusion someone owes a specific sum?

[zazen.warrior]

Is anyone paying the utility bills at the address in question NOW?

Edited August 10, 2009 by zazen.warrior

[zazen.warrior]

A utility company is not a 'lender' and they do not have any documentation beyond the account details held on their computer system. You could SAR them for this information at the cost of £10.00.

 

I am a little confused because if this debt is indeed five years old and a new tenant is now in the property, why would the utility company seek a warrant of entry to access the meter; this would only be done on a 'live' account?

[Tricky Dickie]

A utility company is not a 'lender' and they do not have any documentation beyond the account details held on their computer system. You could SAR them for this information at the cost of £10.00.

 

I am a little confused because if this debt is indeed five years old and a new tenant is now in the property, why would the utility company seek a warrant of entry to access the meter; this would only be done on a 'live' account?

 

 

As far as SP is concerned this is a live account,they have concluded I as the owner have responsibility for paying for the services.

The same tenant was in the property from when it was completed until a few months ago when they moved out owing me a lot of money.

When I went inside to tidy it out I found correspondence addressed to 'the occupier' going back some months then more recent correspondence addressed to 'the occupier/my name' which was the first I knew of any problem.

The property is not occupied just now as I am trying to find another tenant

I accept I have to pay for the gas since the tenant moved out but SP are wanting me to pay the thousands owing or they will disconnect and/ or fit a prepay meter either of which will make it harder to rent and not as desirable if I end up having to move back into it myself besides which I do not have the money to pay them the arrears.

SP must have been providing gas to the property for 5 years so what were they doing?

Did they spend five years writing to the occupier without taking any other action?

Did they forget about the property and let the tenant have free gas for 3 or 4 years then start writing to 'the occupier'?

How did they calculate the sum they allege is owed anyway?

What period do they allege this sum is owed for?

What meter readings did they take,when were they taken and who took them?

How did they come to the conclusion that I owed them money and with whom did they share my data in that process.

Surely in giving consideration to the request by SP to pay them several thousands of pounds under threat of disonnection/fitting of prepay meter I am entitled to all the above information and much more before I reach a conclusion and decide upon a course of action?

[Tricky Dickie]

Can anyone answer a simple question .

In a dispute between a property owner and an energy provider does the burden of proof lie with the provider to prove a person owes them a specific amount or with the accused person to prove they do not owe said sum of money?

[zazen.warrior]

Unfortunately in the case of a utility provider the latter. Have you paid anything at all to the utility company, if the answer is no then I am afraid you don't have a leg to stand on. Sorry.

 

Their priority is to stop the debt getting any bigger and they will fight out the details later, that is to say after a prepayment meter has been fitted.

 

The court action is not to get money from you, it is to gain a warrant to access the meter.

 

They could have found out who the owner was by looking at the land registry.

Edited August 10, 2009 by zazen.warrior

[Tricky Dickie]

Unfortunately in the case of a utility provider the latter. Have you paid anything at all to the utility company, if the answer is no then I am afraid you don't have a leg to stand on. Sorry.

 

Their priority is to stop the debt getting any bigger and they will fight out the details later, that is to say after a prepayment meter has been fitted.

 

The court action is not to get money from you, it is to gain a warrant to access the meter.

 

They could have found out who the owner was by looking at the land registry.

 

So if their priority is to limit the debt ,if I agree to pay the cost of the energy from when the last tenant moved out until another one moves in will they agree not to put in a prepayment meter then as you say the arrears can be sorted out in due course

 

The other thing I don't understand is that the meter is at the moment in a cabinet outside the property on the ground so why do they need a right of entry to disconnect?

Also if they are going to fit a prepayment meter where will this be fitted outside too if not what say does the owner have about where the meter goes or do they just fit it in the middle of the living room as a standard proceedure

[zazen.warrior]

You will need to *prove* when the tenant moved out as a starting point.

 

The prepayment meter would be fitted where the old one was, if you wanted the meter put elsewhere there would be a charge for the extra work.

 

And don't forget the warrant fees which will be added to the debt approx. £300.

 

Perhaps it might be an idea to agree to the prepayment meter to save additional costs, then you will have some space to sort out liability. This would also prevent a similar situation happening again in the future.

 

And why do they seek a warrant, well... if you positioned yourself bodily between the fitter and the meter, the warrant would enable them to call the police out to restrain you...

Edited August 10, 2009 by zazen.warrior

[debt4get]

the reason for entry requirements is for the the meter exchanger to ensure that there is nothing connected to supply which could be damaged when meter is changed...so even if the meter is external to property they still need to check interior for anything connected

[GamekeeperToPoacher]

The reason is to make sure that there is no gas equipment which has an open tap or burner which could release gas and cause explosion.

Usually if they have a warrant and no one is at home they will just remove the meter

 

GK

[The GodMother]

i have sucessfully arguesed with E.ON numerous times in court re energy bills.

 

They have REFUSED to read my meters since i moved in here, 4 years ago, REFUSED to accept my meter readings and have told the courts i owe over £10k for my utilities well the court has thrown the case out 14 times, 7 for gas 7 for electric. The courts have also ordered they provide accurate meter reads to prove i owe this much and they have refused. They are even trying to charge me when i have proof they were not my supplier.

 

They have not provided me with statements since 2004 in relation to my previus premises and have been IN THERE OWN ADMITTANCE IN COURT been sending EMAIL statements to a email addy that is not mine since october 2004. I have only had a email addy since 2005 and can prove it via the date i registered the addy.

 

All l did was tell the courts the account is in dispute and why. Now everytime i go there i dont need to explain what is going on just say hi to the judges and court recorder who sits in front of the Judges they say hi back and ask if the situation has changed i say no and they throw it out.

 

I am paying £200 a month into there bank account which they have denyed exists but the judge recognise the banks sort code and account number as thats how she pays her bills and siad well if u have lost GMs money then where is mine?

 

case thrown out. I am stillwaiting on statements etc.

[Tricky Dickie]

i have sucessfully arguesed with E.ON numerous times in court re energy bills.

 

They have REFUSED to read my meters since i moved in here, 4 years ago, REFUSED to accept my meter readings and have told the courts i owe over £10k for my utilities well the court has thrown the case out 14 times, 7 for gas 7 for electric. The courts have also ordered they provide accurate meter reads to prove i owe this much and they have refused. They are even trying to charge me when i have proof they were not my supplier.

 

They have not provided me with statements since 2004 in relation to my previus premises and have been IN THERE OWN ADMITTANCE IN COURT been sending EMAIL statements to a email addy that is not mine since october 2004. I have only had a email addy since 2005 and can prove it via the date i registered the addy.

 

All l did was tell the courts the account is in dispute and why. Now everytime i go there i dont need to explain what is going on just say hi to the judges and court recorder who sits in front of the Judges they say hi back and ask if the situation has changed i say no and they throw it out.

 

I am paying £200 a month into there bank account which they have denyed exists but the judge recognise the banks sort code and account number as thats how she pays her bills and siad well if u have lost GMs money then where is mine?

 

case thrown out. I am stillwaiting on statements etc.

 

GM from what you have written above it seems clear that the court accept that the burden of proof is upon the energy supply company to prove the amount they allege you owe is correct which is what I would have expected.

However several Caggers on this thread have asserted that it is the responsibility of the person who is alleged to owe the money to prove they do not owe the amount in question which I did not expect would be the case.

Your post is encouraging and I will find out for myself on Monday when I appear in court to use a similar argument to that you describe.